Indeed! Pj's take makes me think the whole thing was a set up. Qhorin would have made all the right arrangements with Mance so that Jon be able to safely join the Wildlings. Including of course the presence of Ygritte in the wildling party that Qhorin's group was to meet in the Skirling Pass, easily spotted by their fire... IIRC Qhorin was not a favourite of the wildlings, hence his part of the bargain, in exchange for Jon to be accepted unharmed, was to give his life.
It all makes sense.
The one thing that I think did not work out for the wildlings in that bargain is that Ghost survived the eagle's attack.
Nevertheless, Jon joining them was their key to go past the Wall, if a direct attack failed. The Horn of Joramun card having already failed.
I believe Benjen got to the Frostfangs, before being in need of bumping, and he could well have discussed the whole thing with Mance then.
Looking out for part two!
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Indeed! Pj's take makes me think the whole thing was a set up. Qhorin would have made all the right arrangements with Mance so that Jon be able to safely join the Wildlings. Including of course the presence of Ygritte in the wildling party that Qhorin's group was to meet in the Skirling Pass, easily spotted by their fire... IIRC Qhorin was not a favourite of the wildlings, hence his part of the bargain, in exchange for Jon to be accepted unharmed, was to give his life.
It all makes sense.
PJ is far superior in asking questions than I am! Haven't gotten this far in my beyond-the-Wall reread yet (taking a damnable long time...), some of these I've asked but not all. I've always thought the thing was a set up, and Qhorin wanted Jon to meet Mance. But I haven't figured out all the ins and outs yet. Or asked all the needed questions.
Much of this does make good sense, but some things I have problems with. Or rather, some of the outcomes assumed both in text and by the fandom. But I need to get further in my reread before I expand on that here. The plan of getting Ygritte to help Jon to the other side hadn't occured to me, but when pointed out it makes perfect sense. My loose thoughts so far: I do think this plan was a bit of a spur of the moment, driven by Mormont's ranging with so many fighting men, but the attack on the Fist was totally out of the blue and foiled it. I think they wanted to attempt a negotiation first (they as in Benjen and Qhorin at the very least, they had talked about what was happening and that could include the old powers waking again), and having Mormont's personal steward as a go-between would be a major plus. But these could change as I go along. I agree that Qhorin had to sacrifice himself as long as a meeting wasn't in private with Mance. He was way too hated by the wildlings to be let go to either side.
Nevertheless, Jon joining them was their key to go past the Wall, if a direct attack failed. The Horn of Joramun card having already failed.
Or before an attack. I think everybody knew they needed every man (and woman on the wildling side) to fight from the Wall, so why sacrifice men unneeded? There are pointers that could mean Mormont possibly could agree to let them through.
My favorite part of PJ's videos is they way he makes me think about things from a different angle and to notice connections I hadn't noticed or to re-think connections that I had noticed.
"The trees have eyes again" According to PJ's reading, the Halfhand see this as sinister. I hadn't read it that way, but, in it's context, I could be convinced. And that would mean that the old gods and the weirwood net are not the same thing. With the Pact, the children coopted or at least gained the ability to observe, the power of the old gods. Ghost was disturbed when he sensed Bran's surroundings.
Blue winter roses. Maybe Rhaegar was intentionally referencing Bael the Bard and the Starks knew that. To challenge them? To let them know that he knows their secrets? To remind them of something? Maybe what Rhaegar, Lyanna, and/or Ned did scattered the winter roses in the breeze, waking the blue eyes of death.
The confidence that Ygritte would survive Jon's attack doesn't make sense to me. Jon could have killed her before he realized she was a woman. He could have killed her in the confusion of battle. He could have done his duty and killed her.
I agree that the decisions highlighted in Part 1 don't make sense. The ranging, putting the NW at risk and leaving Castle Black very lightly defended, seems like madness. I don't buy PJ's explanation (it seems like there would be better ways to accomplish that) but I don't have a better explanation.
My favorite part of PJ's videos is they way he makes me think about things from a different angle and to notice connections I hadn't noticed or to re-think connections that I had noticed.
i am with you here too. And PJ can be very convincing in the way he arguments his views.
"The trees have eyes again" According to PJ's reading, the Halfhand see this as sinister. I hadn't read it that way, but, in it's context, I could be convinced. And that would mean that the old gods and the weirwood net are not the same thing. With the Pact, the children coopted or at least gained the ability to observe, the power of the old gods. Ghost was disturbed when he sensed Bran's surroundings.
That Qhorin or Mormont be concerned about the trees having eyes again may reflect on their distrust of the powers they associate with the children. Perhaps this means to tell us that the children (or some of them) are the Others.
If the old gods and the ww net are not the same thing, whilst we have been told the children converted the first men to the old gods and we have witnessed them using the ww net (in Bloodraven's cave), then can we surmise that the children's agenda has changed? do they manipulate the Watch and the wildlings to clear the way because of the forthcoming events brewing beyond the curtain of light at the end of the world.
The confidence that Ygritte would survive Jon's attack doesn't make sense to me. Jon could have killed her before he realized she was a woman. He could have killed her in the confusion of battle. He could have done his duty and killed her.
It does to me. Ygritte was asleep (or pretending) wasn't she? why did she not immediately spring to her feet? she appeared nonthreatening, hence less likely to be killed without question by someone like Jon. If the whole thing is planned, Qhorin's attack would have also been planned. Of the small wildling group, Ygritte would have been the only one in the know.
I agree that the decisions highlighted in Part 1 don't make sense. The ranging, putting the NW at risk and leaving Castle Black very lightly defended, seems like madness. I don't buy PJ's explanation (it seems like there would be better ways to accomplish that) but I don't have a better explanation.
If the overall plan is to create an 'impossible' alliance between the wildlings and Watch to defend the realm by using Jon of WF as the catalyst, then a few obstacles need to be removed such as the reluctance of a sizeable number of the men of the Watch who are conditioned to hate the wildlings. In organising the mass ranging did Mormont expect to loose a lot of men in a direct confrontation with the wildlings? after all even if the Watch is disciplined and the wildlings are not, what can 300 men expect to do against an army of 100 000 (PJ's number). Although i do not think Mormont expected to meet the blue eyed lot along the way! he got more than had would have bargained for.
Mormont, Benjen, Qhorin, Mance, Ygritte, Tormond (is he Ygritte's father?) all conspiring together to put Jon Snow in charge of a 'north of the Wall' army?
I like it.
No wonder Ygritte kept on telling Jon 'you know nothing'!
on a slight tangent
the fires are dying...
PJ reminds us of this common observations by the protagonists. What kills a fire? oxygen starvation. Replace the oxygen in the air by carbon dioxyde and you have a first class fire extinghuisher. Hence my opinion that the 'cold winds' are CO2, killing fires and gassing people to death, escaping through the sink holes of the Haunted Forest. And who lives underground in the Haunted Forest?
Last Edit: Feb 19, 2018 22:57:38 GMT by arrysfleas
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
If the old gods and the ww net are not the same thing, whilst we have been told the children converted the first men to the old gods and we have witnessed them using the ww net (in Bloodraven's cave), then can we surmise that the children's agenda has changed? do they manipulate the Watch and the wildlings to clear the way because of the forthcoming events brewing beyond the curtain of light at the end of the world.
The stories of the Pact and the events leading up to the Pact are a bit confused and are likely not entirely accurate. So it is possible that the First Men worshipped the old gods before the children of the forest introduced them to the weirwood net. Of course, it is entirely possible that the agenda of the children has changed over the past several thousand years, or that there are multiple factions.
It does to me. Ygritte was asleep (or pretending) wasn't she? why did she not immediately spring to her feet? she appeared nonthreatening, hence less likely to be killed without question by someone like Jon. If the whole thing is planned, Qhorin's attack would have also been planned. Of the small wildling group, Ygritte would have been the only one in the know.
When two attack three, killing a sleeper can be a good strategic move.
In organising the mass ranging did Mormont expect to loose a lot of men in a direct confrontation with the wildlings? after all even if the Watch is disciplined and the wildlings are not, what can 300 men expect to do against an army of 100 000 (PJ's number).
It's an amazing gamble. There are a lot of things that have to work out in the right direction, including Jon's survival.
Hence my opinion that the 'cold winds' are CO2, killing fires and gassing people to death, escaping through the sink holes of the Haunted Forest. And who lives underground in the Haunted Forest?
When I first saw this theory, I thought it was crazy talk. I still don't really like it (mainly because genre) but I have become convinced that it is a real possibility.
My favorite part of PJ's videos is they way he makes me think about things from a different angle and to notice connections I hadn't noticed or to re-think connections that I had noticed.
This is why I will continue to watch PJ. I always like the connections he makes even if I don't agree with the conclusions.
"The trees have eyes again" According to PJ's reading, the Halfhand see this as sinister. I hadn't read it that way, but, in it's context, I could be convinced. And that would mean that the old gods and the weirwood net are not the same thing. With the Pact, the children coopted or at least gained the ability to observe, the power of the old gods. Ghost was disturbed when he sensed Bran's surroundings.
The COTF collective in the Weirnet are the Old Gods IMO. I would guess that "trees have eyes again" meaning the COTF have started manipulating things again.
Also I think we see a COTF in Jon VII CoF.
All night they rode, feeling their way up the twisting pass and through the stretches of broken ground. The wind grew stronger. Sometimes it was so dark that they dismounted and went ahead on foot, each man leading his garron. Once Ebben suggested that some torches might serve them well, but Qhorin said, "No fire," and that was the end of that. They reached the stone bridge at the summit and began to descend again. Off in the darkness a shadowcat screamed in fury, its voice bouncing off the rocks so it seemed as though a dozen other 'cats were giving answer. Once Jon thought he saw a pair of glowing eyes on a ledge overhead, as big as harvest moons.
My favorite part of PJ's videos is they way he makes me think about things from a different angle and to notice connections I hadn't noticed or to re-think connections that I had noticed.
"The trees have eyes again" According to PJ's reading, the Halfhand see this as sinister. I hadn't read it that way, but, in it's context, I could be convinced. And that would mean that the old gods and the weirwood net are not the same thing. With the Pact, the children coopted or at least gained the ability to observe, the power of the old gods. Ghost was disturbed when he sensed Bran's surroundings.
All night they rode, feeling their way up the twisting pass and through the stretches of broken ground. The wind grew stronger. Sometimes it was so dark that they dismounted and went ahead on foot, each man leading his garron. Once Ebben suggested that some torches might serve them well, but Qhorin said, "No fire," and that was the end of that. They reached the stone bridge at the summit and began to descend again. Off in the darkness a shadowcat screamed in fury, its voice bouncing off the rocks so it seemed as though a dozen other 'cats were giving answer. Once Jon thought he saw a pair of glowing eyes on a ledge overhead, as big as harvest moons.
Expand
COTF watching the rangers? I wonder why.
Qhorin saying that always sounded ominous to me, so the question becomes why he thinks that is a bad thing. And as I agree that those eyes were of a CotF, how many times has he seen eyes like that before? Is that the origin of the mistrust?
The confidence that Ygritte would survive Jon's attack doesn't make sense to me. Jon could have killed her before he realized she was a woman. He could have killed her in the confusion of battle. He could have done his duty and killed her.
It does to me. Ygritte was asleep (or pretending) wasn't she? why did she not immediately spring to her feet? she appeared nonthreatening, hence less likely to be killed without question by someone like Jon. If the whole thing is planned, Qhorin's attack would have also been planned. Of the small wildling group, Ygritte would have been the only one in the know.
Not sure I buy Ygritte being in on it. But in an operation like this, I think the chance of her dying was an acceptable prize to pay for the gamble. Also, Qhoring could have learned some things about Jon from Benjen and so know some things about him long before he came. Benjen did want Jon at the Wall.
I'll have a watch of the new episode, and get back to this. Thanks for posting, danl!
The stories of the Pact and the events leading up to the Pact are a bit confused and are likely not entirely accurate.
Not entirely accurate indeed. It is one of the most puzzling thing to me than the fan base seems to never question (someone may have somewhere though) the story of the Pact as told by maesters (and no one else), particularly after reading some characters opinions on the maesters.
I believe the First Men who settled in the north (that is north of Moat Cailin) never had any dispute with the children... until the Starks invaded.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
The COTF collective in the Weirnet are the Old Gods IMO.
I have always agreed with this and I still think they are. But maybe there is something a bit more complicated going on. Of course, most likely there are no old gods, but there are things that are attributed to the old gods. The North has not forgotten that weirwoods are associated with the old gods. That is what makes it puzzling that the Halfhand speaks as if they were different. Or maybe he sees them as a dangerous power but sees a need to get close to it. He wants Jon along because of the Stark connection with the old gods, but that may not mean that he likes it.
I would guess that "trees have eyes again" meaning the COTF have started manipulating things again.
This seems likely. I also read "trees have eyes again" as very similar to "glass candles are burning again". Something has changed. If the COTF are manipulating things again, that is because something has made that possible. The more definite thing that he is telling us is that (until recently) the trees did not have eyes. I didn't realize that something has changed with the weirwoods, but HH says it has. And he seems to think Mormont would not know it, so it must be quite recent. Did they not have eyes until Bran opened them? Now I'm really getting all tinfoilly.
Qhorin saying that always sounded ominous to me, so the question becomes why he thinks that is a bad thing. And as I agree that those eyes were of a CotF, how many times has he seen eyes like that before? Is that the origin of the mistrust?
I don't think Jon has seen a COTF before or since. Not that I can remember reading from his POV. I could have missed something of course.
I have always agreed with this and I still think they are. But maybe there is something a bit more complicated going on. Of course, most likely there are no old gods, but there are things that are attributed to the old gods. The North has not forgotten that weirwoods are associated with the old gods. That is what makes it puzzling that the Halfhand speaks as if they were different. Or maybe he sees them as a dangerous power but sees a need to get close to it. He wants Jon along because of the Stark connection with the old gods, but that may not mean that he likes it.
This seems likely. I also read "trees have eyes again" as very similar to "glass candles are burning again". Something has changed. If the COTF are manipulating things again, that is because something has made that possible. The more definite thing that he is telling us is that (until recently) the trees did not have eyes. I didn't realize that something has changed with the weirwoods, but HH says it has. And he seems to think Mormont would not know it, so it must be quite recent. Did they not have eyes until Bran opened them? Now I'm really getting all tinfoilly.
I like the parallel to "trees have eyes" and "glass candles are burning" are parallels to Ice and Fire mayhaps. Magic is certainly returning to the world it seems.
I certainly think there are things followers of the Old Gods have forgotten. I think about the mentions of blood sacrifice to Weirwoods could have been the norm. Reminds me of Ned executing the Night's Watch deserter.
His father took off the man's head with a single sure stroke. Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine. One of the horses reared and had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched.
Was it the snow drinking it eagerly or the stump?
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
she would certainly make a tempting bait for someone as green as Jon. And absolutely ready to recount the story of Bael the Bard.
A tempting bait for sure, but it doesn't mean she was expecting him. Also, that she was sleeping when they came is rather lucky. If she hadn't been, she could've been killed before they realized she was a woman. What puzzles me is
"I'm Jon Snow." She flinched. "An evil name." "A bastard name," he said. "My father was Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell."
Where does that come from? It's only when Jon asks if the others were kin of hers that she spouts off the Bael tale. Which in itself doesn't make sense blood-tie-wise. It makes him sound like a Garth Greenhand of the wildlings.
I don't think Jon has seen a COTF before or since. Not that I can remember reading from his POV. I could have missed something of course.
Oh, I worded that a bit off. I was thinking of Qhorin having seen the CotF before, and possibly more often in recent time. Jon doesn't see any such eyes again.
Oh, I hope not! I do think he was going into the Frostfangs, though, and that this is cunningly told outright in the text. 2+2=4 after all!
