Post by nanother on Aug 5, 2015 0:39:43 GMT
I've been puzzling over Barristan’s account in particular, so I'll start with that. Dunno if I'm missing something obvious, but it seems to me that in all those paragraphs he does little more than beat around the bush. Sorry, it's a long post and maybe not entirely coherent, but maybe you guys can help me make sense of it:
Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.
1. The bolded suggests that that something happened (went wrong?) at Harrenhal that proved Rhaegar's lack of (intimate? complete?) trust in Ser Barristan, and possibly him showing such degree of trust in Ser Arthur. I’d expect the next paragraph to elaborate on that, but does it?
The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.
2. The first bolded indeed seems to establish continuity with the previous paragraph and possibly also the last one
3. He sounds like he didn’t know of any conspiracy on Rhaegar’s part, and even in hindsight he doesn’t believe there was one
4. He seems to imply that it was Aerys’s presence that caused things to go wrong
Nr 3 might imply that Rhaegar had secret plans for the journey, except Barristan doesn't believe so ... Also, it's not clear what would have been any different if Rhaegar trusted Selmy more (or Dayne less).
If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …
5. slightly odd wording - better knight as in better with the lance (probably), or could it be some other knightly virtue he's referring to? (dunno ... really, the only other thing I can think of is fixing the match, and that doesn't seem to make sense)
6. The thought about not winning the tourney suggests that it was the choosing of QoL&B that went wrong.
Nrs 4 and 6 together imply that crowning Lyanna somehow followed from Aerys being there. How, though? Or, if 6. is false, why the apparent non sequitur? And what does any of this have to do with Rhaegar not trusting Ser Barristan?
He then moves on to the topic of Ashara (is that what went wrong??? or did he just go off on a tangent here?):
Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.
Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter …
Hmmmmm....
But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
The wording is a little confusing here:
7. he says the suicide was soon after the stillbirth, which would then put the stillbirth just a little before Ned returned Dawn (maybe up to a few months before?)
8. he vaguely implies a connection between her dishonouring at HH and the stillbirth - however, if that were the case, the birth should have taken place much earlier, close to the start of the war, making Barristan's definition of 'soon' extremely loose ... which would normally cause me to drop this line of thought, except
9. I already brought this up elsewhere, I wonder where he got this info from. He's the only one to ever mention Ashara's stillbirth, so it's unlikely to be a widespread rumour. It's especially strange that Ned Dayne wouldn't mention it when talking about Ashara's 'broken heart'. My first suspects would be either Arthur OR Ashara still being at court (though that'd be slightly odd in itself) and Barristan hearing local rumours - both of which, especially the second, would be easier with the conception at Harrenhal
10. what exactly happened to Ashara? "Looked to" implies expecting something from him, relying on him for something; well, could be also taking care of him ... anyhow none of these meanings fit a love affair very well. In which case, it's not clear whether her 'dishonouring' came before or after she 'looked to' Stark. Note that Barristan seems to think 'looking to' him instead of Stark would have been a perfectly viable option (that is, he's not making it sound like it'd have conflicted with his wovs)
He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.
So, is his 'haunting' failure is Ashara? Is that the full extent of his failure? Where do Aerys and Rhaegar's trust come into the picture? What was this 'proof' he was talking about?
Based on all accounts we've seen so far, the notable events of the tourney were
Jaime's investiture (and him being sent away):
Everyone mentions this one. We can be sure enough that this wouldn't have happened without Aerys attending. We also know this is what pissed Tywin off enough to finally resign as Hand. It plays into the KotLT story in as much that we're told Aerys suspected him. However, based on Jaime's PoV, I'm fairly certain it was NOT him, so not sure how this is relevant to further events of the tourney.
The KotLT incident:
The main source is Meera's tale, not a hint in Ned's thoughts, or in Barristan's. Mentioned in the WB, but many of the details of Meera's tale are missing, such as the initial conflict wit the squires and the part about the ransoms at the end. Presumably these took place out of sight of the public. However, if Aerys was that worried about the mystery knight, it could have been rather easy to figure out what happened by questioning the 3 knights he challenged, and their squires. Either no-one took Aerys seriously enough to make an actual effort, or someone did but kept the results to himself. A possible candidate for Rhaegar's secrets.
Rhaegar crowning Lyanna:
Everyone seems to agree that this was somehow the beginning of the end. Almost as if it directly led to Lyanna's 'abduction', even though several months elapsed and a lot of shit went down in between: winter returned, Rhaegar's son who was supposed to be the PtwP was born, Elia nearly died in the process (if Jon Connington is to be believed) and was told she wouldn't have any more children.
Something to do with Ashara:
Whatever it was, it happened at the end of the tourney if Barristan thinks him crowning her could have made a difference. Apparently, it wasn't public enough to make it into Yandel's book, or it didn't seem important to him, or else he thought mentioning it would be a bad idea. Ashara shows up in Meera's tale, suggesting that she's going to be important in some way. The obvious way is as potential love interest for Ned. She doesn't not show up in Ned's thoughts, memories, or dreams, though. Yet, there are stories told about it both at Starfall and in Winterfell, so something must have happened. But could it tie into the 'big' events? Could it have to do with the aftermath of Lyanna's crowning? And is Dany actually Ashara's daughter?
Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.
1. The bolded suggests that that something happened (went wrong?) at Harrenhal that proved Rhaegar's lack of (intimate? complete?) trust in Ser Barristan, and possibly him showing such degree of trust in Ser Arthur. I’d expect the next paragraph to elaborate on that, but does it?
The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.
2. The first bolded indeed seems to establish continuity with the previous paragraph and possibly also the last one
3. He sounds like he didn’t know of any conspiracy on Rhaegar’s part, and even in hindsight he doesn’t believe there was one
4. He seems to imply that it was Aerys’s presence that caused things to go wrong
Nr 3 might imply that Rhaegar had secret plans for the journey, except Barristan doesn't believe so ... Also, it's not clear what would have been any different if Rhaegar trusted Selmy more (or Dayne less).
If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …
5. slightly odd wording - better knight as in better with the lance (probably), or could it be some other knightly virtue he's referring to? (dunno ... really, the only other thing I can think of is fixing the match, and that doesn't seem to make sense)
6. The thought about not winning the tourney suggests that it was the choosing of QoL&B that went wrong.
Nrs 4 and 6 together imply that crowning Lyanna somehow followed from Aerys being there. How, though? Or, if 6. is false, why the apparent non sequitur? And what does any of this have to do with Rhaegar not trusting Ser Barristan?
He then moves on to the topic of Ashara (is that what went wrong??? or did he just go off on a tangent here?):
Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.
Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter …
Hmmmmm....
But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
The wording is a little confusing here:
7. he says the suicide was soon after the stillbirth, which would then put the stillbirth just a little before Ned returned Dawn (maybe up to a few months before?)
8. he vaguely implies a connection between her dishonouring at HH and the stillbirth - however, if that were the case, the birth should have taken place much earlier, close to the start of the war, making Barristan's definition of 'soon' extremely loose ... which would normally cause me to drop this line of thought, except
9. I already brought this up elsewhere, I wonder where he got this info from. He's the only one to ever mention Ashara's stillbirth, so it's unlikely to be a widespread rumour. It's especially strange that Ned Dayne wouldn't mention it when talking about Ashara's 'broken heart'. My first suspects would be either Arthur OR Ashara still being at court (though that'd be slightly odd in itself) and Barristan hearing local rumours - both of which, especially the second, would be easier with the conception at Harrenhal
10. what exactly happened to Ashara? "Looked to" implies expecting something from him, relying on him for something; well, could be also taking care of him ... anyhow none of these meanings fit a love affair very well. In which case, it's not clear whether her 'dishonouring' came before or after she 'looked to' Stark. Note that Barristan seems to think 'looking to' him instead of Stark would have been a perfectly viable option (that is, he's not making it sound like it'd have conflicted with his wovs)
He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.
So, is his 'haunting' failure is Ashara? Is that the full extent of his failure? Where do Aerys and Rhaegar's trust come into the picture? What was this 'proof' he was talking about?
Based on all accounts we've seen so far, the notable events of the tourney were
Jaime's investiture (and him being sent away):
Everyone mentions this one. We can be sure enough that this wouldn't have happened without Aerys attending. We also know this is what pissed Tywin off enough to finally resign as Hand. It plays into the KotLT story in as much that we're told Aerys suspected him. However, based on Jaime's PoV, I'm fairly certain it was NOT him, so not sure how this is relevant to further events of the tourney.
The KotLT incident:
The main source is Meera's tale, not a hint in Ned's thoughts, or in Barristan's. Mentioned in the WB, but many of the details of Meera's tale are missing, such as the initial conflict wit the squires and the part about the ransoms at the end. Presumably these took place out of sight of the public. However, if Aerys was that worried about the mystery knight, it could have been rather easy to figure out what happened by questioning the 3 knights he challenged, and their squires. Either no-one took Aerys seriously enough to make an actual effort, or someone did but kept the results to himself. A possible candidate for Rhaegar's secrets.
Rhaegar crowning Lyanna:
Everyone seems to agree that this was somehow the beginning of the end. Almost as if it directly led to Lyanna's 'abduction', even though several months elapsed and a lot of shit went down in between: winter returned, Rhaegar's son who was supposed to be the PtwP was born, Elia nearly died in the process (if Jon Connington is to be believed) and was told she wouldn't have any more children.
Ned:
“Promise me, Ned, “ Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.
and
Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.
Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.
Meera:
And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty.”
“She was,” said Meera, “but that’s a sadder story.”
WB:
And well it might, for with that simple garland of pale blue roses, Rhaegar Targaryen had begun the dance that would rip the Seven Kingdoms apart, bring about his own death and thousands more, and put a welcome new king upon the Iron Throne.
“Promise me, Ned, “ Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.
and
Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.
Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.
Meera:
And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty.”
“She was,” said Meera, “but that’s a sadder story.”
WB:
And well it might, for with that simple garland of pale blue roses, Rhaegar Targaryen had begun the dance that would rip the Seven Kingdoms apart, bring about his own death and thousands more, and put a welcome new king upon the Iron Throne.
Something to do with Ashara:
Whatever it was, it happened at the end of the tourney if Barristan thinks him crowning her could have made a difference. Apparently, it wasn't public enough to make it into Yandel's book, or it didn't seem important to him, or else he thought mentioning it would be a bad idea. Ashara shows up in Meera's tale, suggesting that she's going to be important in some way. The obvious way is as potential love interest for Ned. She doesn't not show up in Ned's thoughts, memories, or dreams, though. Yet, there are stories told about it both at Starfall and in Winterfell, so something must have happened. But could it tie into the 'big' events? Could it have to do with the aftermath of Lyanna's crowning? And is Dany actually Ashara's daughter?
I will continue to mull and see if there are more connections to be made....but yeah, I love this train of thought!
