1.25 Eddard V

In this chapter it seems like most parentage is in the question of who's the father of Cersei's children, and this has been answered. In a way, it might not be that much to make a thread about, but maybe someone finds something more than I did.

The parentage of Cersei and Robert's children is apparent to us now, but not at this point in the story. We and Ned are still searching for what Jon might have been searching for, but we don't have certain confirmation until Ned confronts Cersei in the godswood later in our story. But the ground work is being laid for us to follow. We know what Jaime and Cersei were up to at Winterfell, we know that Lysa reports to Catelyn that the Lannister's killed Jon Arryn for some reason, and now we know that Jon Arryn was looking into a book on the lineages of the great houses. We know about the incest sex, but I don't think we realize that those kids are not Robert's, yet. (I was sullied by the first season of the show, but I don't think I would have known until Ned confront's Cersei, but I could be wrong-no way to ever know now, I guess). GRRM plants us a nice path to follow, for certain.

I did want to just mention that there are a double set of hints of who killed Arryn here, where the part that stood out to me was this sequence:

"When I saw that all hope had fled, I gave the Hand the milk of the poppy, so he should not suffer. Just before he closed his eyes for the last time, he whispered something to the king and his lady wife, a blessing for his son. The seed is strong, he said. At the end, his speech was too slurred to comprehend. Death did not come until the next morning, but Lord Jon was at peace after that. He never spoke again."
Ned took another swallow of milk, trying not to gag on the sweetness of it. "Did it seem to you that there was anything unnatural about Lord Arryn's death?"

That really made me think of sweetsleep! So I think Pycelle is a big contender to have killed Arryn, by giving him a final leathal potion that last night. Perhaps because he was afraid of what Arryn might tell Robert, either by actually getting a bit better or in a clear moment? Doesn't exuse Lysa by any means, just an observation. That he didn't die until the next day reminds me of the potential resistance Sweetrobin shows to sweetsleep, and so "the seed is strong".
It's probably something that can be discussed in an eternal circle, and honestly I'm not after that here. Just wanted to make a note of it!

I think you are correct about Pycelle, but I had a different thought about when and why. It comes to us as Pycelle reporting he was putting Jon Arryn out of his misery, like a end of life overdose of morphine for a person in palliative care. So, knowing what we know now, about Lysa's confession to Sansa/Allayne in the Vale about her poisoning Jon Arryn, it makes sense to believe Pycelle's mercy death story. And it's possible.

It is possible that Lysa poisoned Jon, and then near the end, Pycelle gives him the Milk-of-the-Poppy to bring an end to it, which actually leaves Cersei or the Lannister's innocent of Jon Arryn's death. Which I think is probably true. But I wonder if Pycelle actually poisoned Jon Arryn first.

I would suppose that Pycelle knows the truth of Cersei's children, and we know he has served the Lannister's well for years and years. Jon Arryn comes to him, asks about this lineage book, and Pycelle realizes the information that Jon is probably looking for. I think the timing is what makes me suspect Pycelle. Jon Arryn asks for the book, Pycelle gives it to him, but the next day Jon Arryn has fallen ill. Suspicious! Suppose Jon Arryn tells Robert, and Robert confronts Cersei, and the truth becomes known. What terrible shame that would bring on House Lannister. How would Tywin react? Not well, is my guess. And I think Pycelle fears Tywin more than any other person in the story. And here is Pycelle, living at court all of these years, probably well aware of Cersei and Jaime's incest and treason, and he has done nothing to stop it. I bet if Tywin knew this, he would have Pycelle killed in a heart beat, for allowing it, or at least for not telling Tywin so Tywin could stop it.

If Cersei had just bore Robert legitimate children, even one, it would lead to a legitimate heir to the throne with Baratheon and Lannister blood. But, with Cersei thinking she is smarter than any other human on Planetos, including her father, she fucks it up really bad by having Jaime's children. All that Tywin has worked for for years is gone, and among the many people the Tywin might blame, Pycelle would be one of those people. I think Pycelle poisoned Jon Arryn to protect not only the Lannister's, but to save himself from the wrath of Tywin.

I suspect that when Pycelle handed the book over to Jon Arryn, he delivered some type of poison to the man. He is a maester, he knows things and has access to many, many medications and poisons. He would best know how to disguise a poisoning attempt. To me, this is why he dismissed Maester Coleman from Arryn's bedside, worried that either Coleman could save Arryn or that he might at least recognize the symptoms. I suspect that Lysa's poisoning came after this (if it was real poison). We know she was at Jon Arryn's bedside, when Robert was visiting. She had time then, or even the next morning she might have slipped him the Tears of Lys. Or what she thinks were Tears of Lys.

Tyrion see's Tears of Lys in Pycelle's chamber. The fact the Pycelle pretends not to recognize what has affected Jon Arryn makes me very suspicious of him. I think Littlefinger was aware of what was going on, just as Varys seems to, and Littlefinger took the opportunity to convince Lysa to put something in Jon Arryn's wine. Now, whether it was real poison, or not, I can't say. But it gives LF power over Lysa if Lysa thinks she has murdered her husband for her lover. Littlefinger is smart enough to take advantage of what is going on around him, but not stupid enough to put himself on the limb of getting caught. I doubt he gave Lysa real poison to use, but she thought what she gave Jon was real, and that puts her under Littlefinger's power. He is so smart!

So, I think Pycelle actually poisons Jon Arryn, but Lysa thinks she did it, and confesses this to Sansa. And that is what we think happened. Because we are part of the confession to Sansa, a voyeur hearing secrets.

The only thing that throws off this theory now, is that Pycelle is dead, Tywin is dead, and so what does it matter. It doesn't, except it could just be another layer of how deep GRRM has the twists and turns in this story running. Unless Pycelle did it under Cersei's orders, Cersei who was conveniently away from Kings Landing at the time, which leads to her looking guilty. But still, I am inclined to think Pycelle did it on his own.

Or if Pycelle didn't do it, but with his knowledge he should have recognized the signs and symptoms, and at least acknowledged it, just looks very suspicious to me when he plays stupid when Ned asks him about the poison. If that is the case, then he possibly did poison Jon Arryn after Lysa, as you suspect shymaid , because he wanted to make sure that Jon Arryn died, and if the first poison didn't get him, the second one would.

Another part we find is this chapter, that has come up in several of these threads are this one:

Ned knelt beside her. "He has years to find that answer, Arya. For now, it is enough to know that he will live." The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay. "I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling."

I had a little marry-go-round with this scene, and a couple of things came up I think.

I love this scene, with Ned and the girls in the godswood. I think the wording is interesting and important. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. I think the order of their falling asleep is supposed to tell us something about their arc's and future.

Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose. It connects Sansa to the moon and drifting implies movement going from above to lower. Sansa has winged wolf imagery in her story, loves towers or stories about maidens in towers and is associated with the Eyrie. Unfortunately, we do have some stories of women (Ashara) throwing herself from a tower into the sea. And Sansa does contemplate jumping from a tower after Ned's death, but she thinks herself too much a coward. It makes me feel worried for her and a possible early death.

Arya manages to stay awake for several more hours and then curls up in the grass under the warmth and safety of Ned's cloak. Arya lasting longer than Sansa in wakefullness might imply that she will live longer. And when she does fall asleep, it is under a cloak. Maiden's covered in cloaks in this story often are covered in marriage cloak, and covered with the cloak of their husbands house. Arya is covered in a cloak of House Stark. Now, Arya will not marry Ned, as he is her father, and he is dead, but we have one Stark out there in the world that is very Ned like and has the potential to sit in the seat of the Lords of Winterfell, which we just seen in the last Bran chapter. Jon, most likely, which works if you can look beyond the sibling incest, and even if you cannot, then Jon might not be Ned's son at all, but the son of Rhaegar, Robert or Arthur. Another option is Benjen! We do see uncle's marrying nieces in the Stark family tree. It happened with Sansa, who married her father's brother Jonnel, and to Serena Stark, who also married her father's brother Edric. Serena and Sansa were sisters, daughters of Lord Rickon Stark.

I wonder if this could foreshadow each of these Stark girls marrying a Stark man, in hopes of keeping the family going? Or perhaps even marrying the same man, which could be Jon, which has hints of Aegon and his sister-wives. Distasteful to some reader's or not, these things could happen in this story. However, I worry that Sansa will not make it out of the web that she has been tangled up in since the incident on the Trident and what follower at Castle Darry.

Another possibility is that Arya, who is under the cloak of House Stark, will be the Stark to carry on her family name. But I find that Arya married to be hinted at later in this chapter, when Ned tells her she will marry a king. Arya scoffs and says, "no, that's Sansa". But I think that Ned might be correct while Arya isn't. This could also hint at Lyanna not wanting to marry or having children, but having Jon with whomever the lucky donor is, and Jon being the Stark to carry on the family blood.

When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay is another line from this impressive passage. These girls are laying in the dark red blooms of dragon's breath, and they are safe. Ned doesn't seem bothered or upset by this. This is one of the lines that has lead to my idea that the Stark's carry some Targaryen blood. It's tinfoil at this point, and might always remain so, but it's such a strong image, it has to mean something.

I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling." This line is one that has always hinted to me that Sansa has a bit of green sight, which she could get from her Stark blood, but also from her Tully blood, as I am certain that Catelyn has a Cassandra complex, where she knows what is going to happen but cannot stop it. (I think Lysa has it, too) In Cat's case, her attempts only seem to make things worse, much worse. But this idea of Bran smiling connected to FArya and Ramsay's wedding in the godswood at Winterfell.

All around them lights glimmered through the mists, a hundred candles pale as shrouded stars. Theon stepped back, and Ramsay and his bride joined hands and knelt before the heart tree, bowing their heads in token of submission. The weirwood's carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked. ADWD-The Prince of Winterfell

I just reread this chapter last week, and this stuck out to me as Bran smiling. Smiling in mockery at what he is seeing, but smiling or laughing, none the less. I think it is implied that Bran is watching the wedding through the heart tree, and the tree appears to be laughing, or at least smiling. Before this time, I had connected Sansa seeing Bran smiling was because she knew he was alive and would survive his fall. But it never felt quite right because Bran doesn't smile, at least until perhaps Tyrion gives him the plans for his saddle. But Bran is pretty sorrowful after his fall. But here, we have Bran in the tree, laughing or smiling. And it comes to Sansa while she sleeps under a heart tree in a godswood. I know the heart tree isn't a weirwood, but it's still a heart tree, and connected to the world.

Firstly I had a mad search for trees that we get here, but I found was really just elm and oak.

This godswood has an oak as a heartree – oak is used as a symbol in many official ways in our world: as a national, regional, politlcal and stately symbol. As such it is fitting as the capital's hearttree. Also we know it as part of the oak king previously discussed here at the forum, and it's connection to Robert. But it's also connected to lightning, thunder and storms throughout Europe in their old religions, myths and stories, and so connected to Robert the Storm Lord (or Storm King I should probably say).

In looking for information on elm, I found it's used in two litterary themes:
«Paradisal Elm» that is charactarized by the idyllic life, and that an elm's shade is a place of special coolness and peace; this I find a nice fit with both the scene in general, and tied to Ned and his own godswood at Winterfell. Neither place has an elm as a heartree, but both have elms in them. This theme is also known as «elm-an-vine».
«Elm and Death» is the other theme, which is tied to the Underworld and ill omens.

I found this interesting as the godswood also has a vine climbing up the heartree! As I didn't find smokeberries in the real world (Yes, I suck at English botanical names), I took a look at vines in general instead. What is one sort of vine called but "liana"? I think a bell just rung!
I haven't found a satisfying tie to what happened during the rebellion to this yet, but here's an overview of my thoughts so far.
Firstly, that the oak (Storm King) is overgrown with a vine (Lyanna) seems fitting as Robert have placed Lyanna on a pedestal over the years, and refuses to let her go.
While this scene is quite idyllic, of course Martin didn't give us a "paradisical" story! Ned's thoughts do seem to long for a future in that direction, but it seems like the other theme takes over: death.
Ned's own tie to the Underworld (= the north), seen in Catelyn's first chapter in particular, is fitting here. Also makes me see another angle of Lyanna's dying wish to be burried in Winterfell with her kin. Not just to rest at home, but also a wish to go to the Underworld now that her life was over. In my mind at least, she's closely tied to death as it lays so heavily on Ned's mind and Robert's.

Great information on the tree's shymaid . The oak stands out to me because it is the heart tree, and we have all the "seed is strong" imagery in the story, and oaks have acorns (seeds) and several of the Stark's have acorn imagery. Arya and Bran have acorn imagery, and Jon has oak imagery in his story. Could the "seed is strong" apply to the children of Eddard? It also seems to apply to Robert Baratheon, and it seems his seed is strong, sixteen strong if Maggy the Frog is correct. I love the connection to made to storms and our Storm Lord Robert. Perhaps, with Jon also having oak imagery, this is a hint at Robert as Jon's father.

And the elm tree being associated with the underworld is something I had never heard before, but I really like it. It fit's the Stark's, and their gloomy north and crypts and the idea of the old ways. I would say that there is coolness and a sense of peace in the north that the rest of Westeros doesn't seem to have.

Liana as a vine is super interesting, most especially as it is climbing the oak. Now, the key to Jon's possible parentage might lie in who fit's the oak tree symbolism. You have pointed out Robert, and that is hard to deny. I don't see Rhaegar or Arthur fitting this concept. Perhaps Mance, as he is a king of the free folk. And Ned, perhaps, as a king in the north, in all but name. Also Robert and Ned play roles as Summer and Winter Kings, and have the oak and holly imagery. Holly is a shrub with berries. I am not sure that smoke berry is a real thing, but Holly is a shrub that can climb, and it has berries. Perhaps we are getting Oak and Holly symbolism in the godswood, and here we see the vine (Holly, perhaps) taking over the Oak. Does that mean it is a time for Winter, as in Winter is Coming?

On the question of if it could tell us something of what happened to Lyanna, I took a look at the whole sentence:

When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay.

I'm not sure what to do with this to be honest.

I am not sure how it could apply to Lyanna either, but I suppose if Lyanna was in the hands of Rhaegar (or even Aerys) this imagery would indicate that Lyanna was safe. Both Sansa and Arya are safe, surrounded in dragon's breath, under the care of their father. I suppose that this could indicate Lyanna was safe in someones care, but I don't see how Arthur fit's a father's image. A protector yes, and maybe that is all the image needs to mean.

Or perhaps we are to see an inversion for Lyanna. She was in the hands of a dragon (Rhaegar or Aerys) and she was not safe under her father's care. Does this mean she was not safe under anyone's care?

So, if this tells us something about Arthur and Lyanna, could it be that he first held his hand over her, but "broke" after she was in the custody of the dragon(s). In thinking about this, and noting Sansa here, I can't help thinking he took her under his ~~wing~~ cloak. And in this world we have the wedding ceremonies where the girls/women is cloaked by their new husbands. Not to say I think they married, just a line of thought out of many for now. While it's easy to mainly look at Arya for clues to Lyanna, I don't think we can ignore Sansa either. And she has many incidences with cloakes, including two from the kingsguard. But Arya too has a cloaking theme in her arc, but more in a metaphorically way. She cloaks herself in new identities (and haircuts, and rags), and now (possibly) with new faces as well.

It is Arya under a cloak in this scene, not Sansa. Although it is Sansa that we see under Tyrion's wedding cloak later in the story, if that is what you mean. And the Hound once throws a cloak at her on Tyrion's demand, but he doesn't cover her with it. And yes, she does have the Hounds kingsguard cloak that she keeps after the Blackwater, even though he didn't really gift it to her as much as he left it behind. What is the other kingsguard who cloaks Sansa in her storyline?

I do like the image you present of Arya under a cloak of new identities. Perhaps that indicates that Lyanna also took on several identities to hide and protect herself. Wylla, perhaps? A fisherman's daughter, maybe?

For some reason it also reminded me of Ned's feverdream:

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

Could be the "dawn broke" part, as it naturally makes me think of Dawn. It's not an elegant or obvious connection between these two, but non the less it came to me. Perhaps I need to leave it to simmer for a bit!

Well, this feeds my imagery that Dawn broke at the toj, but I don't think that is the idea you are seeing. I do think the battle at the toj happened when the sky was red, so either dawn or dusk.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

shymaid
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1.25 Eddard V Apr 26, 2018 8:25:35 GMT

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Post by shymaid on Apr 26, 2018 8:25:35 GMT

Nice stuff here!

Thanks! It took some time, digging and thinking to make more sense of it, beyond just a filler-scene.

The parentage of Cersei and Robert's children is apparent to us now, but not at this point in the story. We and Ned are still searching for what Jon might have been searching for, but we don't have certain confirmation until Ned confronts Cersei in the godswood later in our story. But the ground work is being laid for us to follow. We know what Jaime and Cersei were up to at Winterfell, we know that Lysa reports to Catelyn that the Lannister's killed Jon Arryn for some reason, and now we know that Jon Arryn was looking into a book on the lineages of the great houses. We know about the incest sex, but I don't think we realize that those kids are not Robert's, yet. (I was sullied by the first season of the show, but I don't think I would have known until Ned confront's Cersei, but I could be wrong-no way to ever know now, I guess). GRRM plants us a nice path to follow, for certain.

I've mostly been a casual watcher of the show, and as so many years have passed since seeing the first season for the first time I don't remember if I thought the "royal" children were bastards or not. I didn't really try to guess the mysteries at all really. Hindsight makes it hard to ignore the scene with Jamie and Cersei at Winterfell at least. But I lean to it being quite obvious. For me I like seing the question about Arryn's poisoning being clued out for us more.

I think you are correct about Pycelle, but I had a different thought about when and why. It comes to us as Pycelle reporting he was putting Jon Arryn out of his misery, like a end of life overdose of morphine for a person in palliative care. So, knowing what we know now, about Lysa's confession to Sansa/Allayne in the Vale about her poisoning Jon Arryn, it makes sense to believe Pycelle's mercy death story. And it's possible.

It is possible that Lysa poisoned Jon, and then near the end, Pycelle gives him the Milk-of-the-Poppy to bring an end to it, which actually leaves Cersei or the Lannister's innocent of Jon Arryn's death. Which I think is probably true. But I wonder if Pycelle actually poisoned Jon Arryn first.

I would suppose that Pycelle knows the truth of Cersei's children, and we know he has served the Lannister's well for years and years. Jon Arryn comes to him, asks about this lineage book, and Pycelle realizes the information that Jon is probably looking for. I think the timing is what makes me suspect Pycelle. Jon Arryn asks for the book, Pycelle gives it to him, but the next day Jon Arryn has fallen ill. Suspicious! Suppose Jon Arryn tells Robert, and Robert confronts Cersei, and the truth becomes known. What terrible shame that would bring on House Lannister. How would Tywin react? Not well, is my guess. And I think Pycelle fears Tywin more than any other person in the story. And here is Pycelle, living at court all of these years, probably well aware of Cersei and Jaime's incest and treason, and he has done nothing to stop it. I bet if Tywin knew this, he would have Pycelle killed in a heart beat, for allowing it, or at least for not telling Tywin so Tywin could stop it.

If Cersei had just bore Robert legitimate children, even one, it would lead to a legitimate heir to the throne with Baratheon and Lannister blood. But, with Cersei thinking she is smarter than any other human on Planetos, including her father, she fucks it up really bad by having Jaime's children. All that Tywin has worked for for years is gone, and among the many people the Tywin might blame, Pycelle would be one of those people. I think Pycelle poisoned Jon Arryn to protect not only the Lannister's, but to save himself from the wrath of Tywin.

I suspect that when Pycelle handed the book over to Jon Arryn, he delivered some type of poison to the man. He is a maester, he knows things and has access to many, many medications and poisons. He would best know how to disguise a poisoning attempt. To me, this is why he dismissed Maester Coleman from Arryn's bedside, worried that either Coleman could save Arryn or that he might at least recognize the symptoms. I suspect that Lysa's poisoning came after this (if it was real poison). We know she was at Jon Arryn's bedside, when Robert was visiting. She had time then, or even the next morning she might have slipped him the Tears of Lys. Or what she thinks were Tears of Lys.

Tyrion see's Tears of Lys in Pycelle's chamber. The fact the Pycelle pretends not to recognize what has affected Jon Arryn makes me very suspicious of him. I think Littlefinger was aware of what was going on, just as Varys seems to, and Littlefinger took the opportunity to convince Lysa to put something in Jon Arryn's wine. Now, whether it was real poison, or not, I can't say. But it gives LF power over Lysa if Lysa thinks she has murdered her husband for her lover. Littlefinger is smart enough to take advantage of what is going on around him, but not stupid enough to put himself on the limb of getting caught. I doubt he gave Lysa real poison to use, but she thought what she gave Jon was real, and that puts her under Littlefinger's power. He is so smart!

So, I think Pycelle actually poisons Jon Arryn, but Lysa thinks she did it, and confesses this to Sansa. And that is what we think happened. Because we are part of the confession to Sansa, a voyeur hearing secrets.

The only thing that throws off this theory now, is that Pycelle is dead, Tywin is dead, and so what does it matter. It doesn't, except it could just be another layer of how deep GRRM has the twists and turns in this story running. Unless Pycelle did it under Cersei's orders, Cersei who was conveniently away from Kings Landing at the time, which leads to her looking guilty. But still, I am inclined to think Pycelle did it on his own.

Or if Pycelle didn't do it, but with his knowledge he should have recognized the signs and symptoms, and at least acknowledged it, just looks very suspicious to me when he plays stupid when Ned asks him about the poison. If that is the case, then he possibly did poison Jon Arryn after Lysa, as you suspect shymaid , because he wanted to make sure that Jon Arryn died, and if the first poison didn't get him, the second one would.

And Cersei going to Casterly Rock could've freaked out Lysa as well (with the help of that meddling little finger). It's possible to argue both for the true killer. We see Pycelle having the poison and sveral possible motives. Either way I think Pycelle gave him the last leathal dose that last night, and I'm not in favour of that being out of mercy.
As said, it can be an endless cycle of discussion! We don't have definitive clues to who it really was.

I love this scene, with Ned and the girls in the godswood. I think the wording is interesting and important. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. I think the order of their falling asleep is supposed to tell us something about their arc's and future.

Haha, I know you love this one!
Interesting thoughts on possible forshadowing here. Personally I don't feel ready to speculate much on what will happen in the rest of the story. I need to take a much closer look first. So I won't comment much on that.

Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose. It connects Sansa to the moon and drifting implies movement going from above to lower. Sansa has winged wolf imagery in her story, loves towers or stories about maidens in towers and is associated with the Eyrie. Unfortunately, we do have some stories of women (Ashara) throwing herself from a tower into the sea. And Sansa does contemplate jumping from a tower after Ned's death, but she thinks herself too much a coward. It makes me feel worried for her and a possible early death.

We do get the rumor that she flew from a tower when escaping King's Landing, so the symbolism might not include a forshadowing of her falling in the future. That being said, it might me a good thing she's out of the Eyrie... She did have a close call there!

I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling." This line is one that has always hinted to me that Sansa has a bit of green sight, which she could get from her Stark blood, but also from her Tully blood, as I am certain that Catelyn has a Cassandra complex, where she knows what is going to happen but cannot stop it. (I think Lysa has it, too) In Cat's case, her attempts only seem to make things worse, much worse. But this idea of Bran smiling connected to FArya and Ramsay's wedding in the godswood at Winterfell.

In rewriting my notes (my thoughtprocess isn't always transfered well into a post...) I seem to have skipped a point on this dreaming. Sansa is the one mentioned falling asleep in moonlight, and the one telling of her dream. Several important dreams takes place in moonlight, so I think it could be something to the thought of dreams being sent via the moon. So I have that in mind as well.
It's odd that Theon thinks the tree is smiling, as we never hear that from anyone else before this. I'm not sure the tree's face is tied to Bran, even if he's present in it. It could be Theon himself it is refering to; as we see several heartree faces resemble the one that holds the godswood, or perhaps used the godswood, it could be tied to Theon's time as holder of Winterfell.
But I need way more time to think on this before I say anything more.

Another possibility is that Arya, who is under the cloak of House Stark, will be the Stark to carry on her family name. But I find that Arya married to be hinted at later in this chapter, when Ned tells her she will marry a king. Arya scoffs and says, "no, that's Sansa". But I think that Ned might be correct while Arya isn't. This could also hint at Lyanna not wanting to marry or having children, but having Jon with whomever the lucky donor is, and Jon being the Stark to carry on the family blood.

I always have in mind that Arya is a child when saying this, and not all children are interested in marriage and babies when young. What happens when they grow up is another matter.

Liana as a vine is super interesting, most especially as it is climbing the oak. Now, the key to Jon's possible parentage might lie in who fit's the oak tree symbolism. You have pointed out Robert, and that is hard to deny. I don't see Rhaegar or Arthur fitting this concept. Perhaps Mance, as he is a king of the free folk. And Ned, perhaps, as a king in the north, in all but name. Also Robert and Ned play roles as Summer and Winter Kings, and have the oak and holly imagery. Holly is a shrub with berries. I am not sure that smoke berry is a real thing, but Holly is a shrub that can climb, and it has berries. Perhaps we are getting Oak and Holly symbolism in the godswood, and here we see the vine (Holly, perhaps) taking over the Oak. Does that mean it is a time for Winter, as in Winter is Coming?

I did find this research interesting to do!

If thinking of parentage only, I don't rule out Ned either as he and Robert came to their power at the same time. And he is the king in the north in all but name. He does have aspects of the oak king as well.
As does Aerys, as he held the throne at the time and died around the changing of a season. While I can see Rhaegar as a potential king, I agree that he doesn't fully inhabit the image. But then I'm not convinced this image has that much to do with parentage.

What the vine (liana) overgrowing the oak symbolizes to me is more in line with my idea of Lyanna playing Robert as a bell, perhaps manipulating both him and Rhaegar into actions they otherwise wouldn't have done.

I am not sure how it could apply to Lyanna either, but I suppose if Lyanna was in the hands of Rhaegar (or even Aerys) this imagery would indicate that Lyanna was safe. Both Sansa and Arya are safe, surrounded in dragon's breath, under the care of their father. I suppose that this could indicate Lyanna was safe in someones care, but I don't see how Arthur fit's a father's image. A protector yes, and maybe that is all the image needs to mean.

Or perhaps we are to see an inversion for Lyanna. She was in the hands of a dragon (Rhaegar or Aerys) and she was not safe under her father's care. Does this mean she was not safe under anyone's care?

Perhaps she was the biggest danger to her own safety?

It is Arya under a cloak in this scene, not Sansa. Although it is Sansa that we see under Tyrion's wedding cloak later in the story, if that is what you mean. And the Hound once throws a cloak at her on Tyrion's demand, but he doesn't cover her with it. And yes, she does have the Hounds kingsguard cloak that she keeps after the Blackwater, even though he didn't really gift it to her as much as he left it behind. What is the other kingsguard who cloaks Sansa in her storyline?

I do like the image you present of Arya under a cloak of new identities. Perhaps that indicates that Lyanna also took on several identities to hide and protect herself. Wylla, perhaps? A fisherman's daughter, maybe?

And Ned only had one sister, not two. It's easier to only look to Arya for clues, but I think we can see things in Sansa's arc as well. As such both sisters could be a clue here. While Arya is the one that lies under the cloak, she rarely uses on physically in her arc for safety. Sansa has more cloak + safety in her arc than her sister.
With Sansa and the kingsguard cloaks, we have the scene with the Hound leaving cloak with her. She also uses Barristan's when pleading for Ned's life in the throneroom. Barristan left his lying on the floor. Both are indirectly made available for her, not given directly. The Hound also protects her several times while in the white cloak, mostly indirectly by backing her up in potentially dangerous situations. But also directly during the riot, and by saying enough during a beating. If Lyanna did spend time with Arthur (and quite possibly Whent), I find it hard to ignore Sansa's time with white cloaks. There could be clues there! And she could've used different identities during her time as "lost". But I find it very hard to believe that she was the fisherman's daugther; the only clue to that is that story and what might be implied through those two boats. I need way more than that! And to find more clues I need to reread more, and that will take time.

Well, this feeds my imagery that Dawn broke at the toj, but I don't think that is the idea you are seeing. I do think the battle at the toj happened when the sky was red, so either dawn or dusk.

Well, in this same chapter we see Littlefinger warning (and mocking) Ned for trusting some of his men utterly.
Even ignoring the show's version of that fight, I think it's possible the kingsguards wanted to eliminate the men coming with Ned to keep information to a limited number of people. Ned might trust them, but others might not. Of course this is provided that information was in the picture, which it might not.

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1.25 Eddard V Apr 26, 2018 19:48:32 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Apr 26, 2018 19:48:32 GMT

We do get the rumor that she flew from a tower when escaping King's Landing, so the symbolism might not include a forshadowing of her falling in the future. That being said, it might me a good thing she's out of the Eyrie... She did have a close call there!

Yes, I think anything romantic Sansa might have had in her mind about throwing herself out of a tower died beside the moon door, when Lysa was so terrifying and then was eventually shoved out by Littlefinger.

And you are correct, about the rumor's of Sansa turning into a wolf and growing leather bat wings and flew from her tower. I am not sure that Sansa know's that story, but Arya hears about it. And this might relate to the drifting comment, or it might not. Drifting implies a gentle downward movement, where as flying seems a bit different to me. But it is certainly part of the imagery we get about Sansa in the story.

In rewriting my notes (my thoughtprocess isn't always transfered well into a post...) I seem to have skipped a point on this dreaming. Sansa is the one mentioned falling asleep in moonlight, and the one telling of her dream. Several important dreams takes place in moonlight, so I think it could be something to the thought of dreams being sent via the moon. So I have that in mind as well.

Moon dreams! I will have to think about this a bit.

It's odd that Theon thinks the tree is smiling, as we never hear that from anyone else before this. I'm not sure the tree's face is tied to Bran, even if he's present in it. It could be Theon himself it is refering to; as we see several heartree faces resemble the one that holds the godswood, or perhaps used the godswood, it could be tied to Theon's time as holder of Winterfell.
But I need way more time to think on this before I say anything more.

I suppose that everyone see's the face's a bit different, but in Cat's first chapter we are told the heart tree at Winterfell has " a face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful". I guess long and melancholy doesn't discount what the mouth is doing, and yes, Theon might be projecting a smile or laughter onto the tree's face based on his feelings. But I do have a feeling that the tree's do change faces, depending on who is watching through them. Perhaps not!

As to a smiling or laughing tree, we have the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, which isn't smiling exactly, but appears to be laughing. I know that is a connection that I have heard people make with the Bran the Time Traveler theories. And there could be a distinction between a smiling tree and a laughing tree, or not.

I always have in mind that Arya is a child when saying this, and not all children are interested in marriage and babies when young. What happens when they grow up is another matter.

Yes, people certainly can change as they grow.

Perhaps she was the biggest danger to her own safety?

Maybe. We do have that idea from Ned that her touch of wolf's blood led her to an early grave.

With Sansa and the kingsguard cloaks, we have the scene with the Hound leaving cloak with her. She also uses Barristan's when pleading for Ned's life in the throneroom. Barristan left his lying on the floor. Both are indirectly made available for her, not given directly. The Hound also protects her several times while in the white cloak, mostly indirectly by backing her up in potentially dangerous situations. But also directly during the riot, and by saying enough during a beating. If Lyanna did spend time with Arthur (and quite possibly Whent), I find it hard to ignore Sansa's time with white cloaks. There could be clues there! And she could've used different identities during her time as "lost". But I find it very hard to believe that she was the fisherman's daugther; the only clue to that is that story and what might be implied through those two boats. I need way more than that! And to find more clues I need to reread more, and that will take time.

I guess I have never thought of Sansa with Barristan's cloak, and I am not sure what I think of that. She kneels on it so she doesn't get her gown dirty! The whole man's life as a kingsguard was jerked away from him, and he shed's his cloak in anger, and she knee's on it like it was placed there for her convenience. She isn't protected by it or covered by it, nor does she have any attachment to that cloak. Still, it is contact with a kingsguard cloak, certainly.

I would bet money that the fisherman's daughter is either Lyanna or Ashara. Ashara is probably more likely, just with her familiarity with the sea and boats (as Ned is no sailor but some how they landed safely on Sisterton), and much of my thoughts about Lyanna are related to her eye color not being Stark grey or even the blue-grey we see in Benjen, but purple. And it's just my crazy obsession with ship names in the story that lead to it all. The connections with the Sloe-Eyed Maid seem to link Ashara and Dany for me, possibly as mother and daughter. But I can't count Lyanna out of running! Because I am stubborn.

Well, in this same chapter we see Littlefinger warning (and mocking) Ned for trusting some of his men utterly.
Even ignoring the show's version of that fight, I think it's possible the kingsguards wanted to eliminate the men coming with Ned to keep information to a limited number of people. Ned might trust them, but others might not. Of course this is provided that information was in the picture, which it might not.

I guess a lot of that depends on what exactly was going on at the toj. Ned seems to have some guilt about some things, but he doesn't seem to express that in his thoughts when thinking of the men from the north who died at the toj. Sadness, but no guilt. I don't think he sacrificed them to keep a secret, but time will tell.

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1.25 Eddard V Apr 27, 2018 8:26:38 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by shymaid on Apr 27, 2018 8:26:38 GMT

I am not sure that Sansa know's that story, but Arya hears about it.

No, I don't think she's heard that or any other story of her escape.

Moon dreams! I will have to think about this a bit.

Fun tidbit:
Ned wakes from his toj-dream bathing in moonlight. After his crypt-dream, he wakes up in pitch black.

I suppose that everyone see's the face's a bit different, but in Cat's first chapter we are told the heart tree at Winterfell has " a face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful". I guess long and melancholy doesn't discount what the mouth is doing, and yes, Theon might be projecting a smile or laughter onto the tree's face based on his feelings. But I do have a feeling that the tree's do change faces, depending on who is watching through them. Perhaps not!

I wouldn't be surpised if they change, but I'm not convinced it's due to those who might be in it at that particular time.

As to a smiling or laughing tree, we have the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, which isn't smiling exactly, but appears to be laughing. I know that is a connection that I have heard people make with the Bran the Time Traveler theories. And there could be a distinction between a smiling tree and a laughing tree, or not.

Still haven't thought much on that Laughing Tree Knight. Laughing and smiling are related, but also different.

I guess I have never thought of Sansa with Barristan's cloak, and I am not sure what I think of that. She kneels on it so she doesn't get her gown dirty! The whole man's life as a kingsguard was jerked away from him, and he shed's his cloak in anger, and she knee's on it like it was placed there for her convenience. She isn't protected by it or covered by it, nor does she have any attachment to that cloak. Still, it is contact with a kingsguard cloak, certainly.

On the surface, yes. But looking a bit deeper there could be something there. I haven't pinned it down fully yet, but it is interesting I think.
As usual, Sansa starts the chapter by a dose of fashion, but her dress this time isn't really just any dress. It's the one stained by the blood orange Arya threw:

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them."
"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."
"Liar," Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.
"Go ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace." She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.

Back in her room:

Sansa stalked away with her head up. She was to be a queen, and queens did not cry. At least not where people could see. When she reached her bedchamber, she barred the door and took off her dress. The blood orange had left a blotchy red stain on the silk. "I hate her!" she screamed. She balled up the dress and flung it into the cold hearth, on top of the ashes of last night's fire. When she saw that the stain had bled through onto her underskirt, she began to sob despite herself. She ripped off the rest of her clothes wildly, threw herself into bed, and cried herself back to sleep.

Quite a bit of blood imagery tied to that stain. Could it be telling us something?

When the king's herald moved forward, Sansa realized the moment was almost at hand. She smoothed down the cloth of her skirt nervously. She was dressed in mourning, as a sign of respect for the dead king, but she had taken special care to make herself beautiful. Her gown was the ivory silk that the queen had given her, the one Arya had ruined, but she'd had them dye it black and you couldn't see the stain at all. She had fretted over her jewelry for hours and finally decided upon the elegant simplicity of a plain silver chain.

I find it interesting the point being made of a "blood" stain still being there but hidden from view. Also we get that silver chain you mused about earlier in another thread - the chained wolf.
Her thoughts are that she doesn't want to get her black dress dirty, and in one way that could fit her characther. Taking it from another angle, she's one who is very preoccupied with knights true and false. By using the cloak of a "true knight" she also connects herself with honor, valor, honesty etc. that is associated with him, as everyone there knows his measure. They also know how her father measures up to that as well, the man she's pleading for. So I think it's more than just vanity on her part.
It's still in my Lyanna simmering pot, not knitted into a whole yet. But it might be one of the things telling us something.

I would bet money that the fisherman's daughter is either Lyanna or Ashara. Ashara is probably more likely, just with her familiarity with the sea and boats (as Ned is no sailor but some how they landed safely on Sisterton), and much of my thoughts about Lyanna are related to her eye color not being Stark grey or even the blue-grey we see in Benjen, but purple. And it's just my crazy obsession with ship names in the story that lead to it all. The connections with the Sloe-Eyed Maid seem to link Ashara and Dany for me, possibly as mother and daughter. But I can't count Lyanna out of running! Because I am stubborn.

I find Ashara more likely for now.

I guess a lot of that depends on what exactly was going on at the toj. Ned seems to have some guilt about some things, but he doesn't seem to express that in his thoughts when thinking of the men from the north who died at the toj. Sadness, but no guilt. I don't think he sacrificed them to keep a secret, but time will tell.

We have very few clues about what happened there, so it could go either way.

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1.25 Eddard V Apr 30, 2018 2:40:34 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Apr 30, 2018 2:40:34 GMT

I must have missed commenting on this the other day. I only noticed tonight that I hadn't responded. Sorry for the delay, although it did leave me some time to look into some cloak imagery in the story.

Apr 27, 2018 8:12:07 GMT shymaid said:

Fun tidbit:
Ned wakes from his toj-dream bathing in moonlight. After his crypt-dream, he wakes up in pitch black.

The crypt dreams and darkness make sense, as the crypts are black and dark. But I suppose there could be a method to the truth of the dreams, or the source, based on the light when a person wakes, but I am not convinced. Still, it is something to pay attention to.

Apr 27, 2018 8:12:07 GMT shymaid said:

I wouldn't be surpised if they change, but I'm not convinced it's due to those who might be in it at that particular time.

What would be another explanation for the tree's to change faces? Possibly it could be the last person who died at the tree, but I think in the case of the Winterfell tree, it would seem like Luwin was the last to die under that weirwood, so if that tree took on his face, I don't know if it would be smiling or laughing. Luwin always struck me as fairly serious. Perhaps there is another reason the tree's have changing faces?

Last Edit: Apr 30, 2018 3:35:00 GMT by stdaga

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1.25 Eddard V Apr 30, 2018 3:32:35 GMT shymaid likes this

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Post by stdaga on Apr 30, 2018 3:32:35 GMT

Apr 27, 2018 8:26:38 GMT shymaid said:

I guess I have never thought of Sansa with Barristan's cloak, and I am not sure what I think of that. She kneels on it so she doesn't get her gown dirty! The whole man's life as a kingsguard was jerked away from him, and he shed's his cloak in anger, and she knee's on it like it was placed there for her convenience. She isn't protected by it or covered by it, nor does she have any attachment to that cloak. Still, it is contact with a kingsguard cloak, certainly.

On the surface, yes. But looking a bit deeper there could be something there. I haven't pinned it down fully yet, but it is interesting I think.
As usual, Sansa starts the chapter by a dose of fashion, but her dress this time isn't really just any dress. It's the one stained by the blood orange Arya threw:

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them."
"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."
"Liar," Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.
"Go ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace." She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.

Back in her room:

Sansa stalked away with her head up. She was to be a queen, and queens did not cry. At least not where people could see. When she reached her bedchamber, she barred the door and took off her dress. The blood orange had left a blotchy red stain on the silk. "I hate her!" she screamed. She balled up the dress and flung it into the cold hearth, on top of the ashes of last night's fire. When she saw that the stain had bled through onto her underskirt, she began to sob despite herself. She ripped off the rest of her clothes wildly, threw herself into bed, and cried herself back to sleep.

Quite a bit of blood imagery tied to that stain. Could it be telling us something?

When the king's herald moved forward, Sansa realized the moment was almost at hand. She smoothed down the cloth of her skirt nervously. She was dressed in mourning, as a sign of respect for the dead king, but she had taken special care to make herself beautiful. Her gown was the ivory silk that the queen had given her, the one Arya had ruined, but she'd had them dye it black and you couldn't see the stain at all. She had fretted over her jewelry for hours and finally decided upon the elegant simplicity of a plain silver chain.

I find it interesting the point being made of a "blood" stain still being there but hidden from view. Also we get that silver chain you mused about earlier in another thread - the chained wolf.
Her thoughts are that she doesn't want to get her black dress dirty, and in one way that could fit her characther. Taking it from another angle, she's one who is very preoccupied with knights true and false. By using the cloak of a "true knight" she also connects herself with honor, valor, honesty etc. that is associated with him, as everyone there knows his measure. They also know how her father measures up to that as well, the man she's pleading for. So I think it's more than just vanity on her part.
It's still in my Lyanna simmering pot, not knitted into a whole yet. But it might be one of the things telling us something.

Just a few thoughts on the cloak idea, as related to Sansa. We have two cases of the Hound's kingsguard cloak in relation to Sansa using it to cover herself.

The first is after Joffrey has her stripped and beaten (the Hound does nothing to stop this although he doesn't take part) and it is only when Tyrion orders the beating stopped and for her to be covered, that the Hound throws his cloak down on the ground. Sansa picks it up and covers herself with it. I can see that could be seen as Sansa cloaking herself in the Hounds protection.

The second incident would be after the battle of the Blackwater, when the Hound leaves his cloak behind in her chamber. After he leaves her, she chooses to huddle under his cloak on the floor (almost in the same body position as after Joff had her stripped and beaten) instead of crawling into her probably much warmer bed. This cloak is noted to be smokey and bloody.

This could be looked at in several ways, I suppose. Both times the Hound doesn't officially cover/claim her with his cloak, but does leave it in her possession and she chooses to cover herself, perhaps claiming herself with his cloak. Now, the Hound might have been trying to claim or protect her, or he might have just been following orders in the first case and leaving behind his white cloak in the second case because of his abandonment of his duties. I do see that Sansa actively responding to a passive gift in both cases, regardless of the intent of the Hound.

I looked into one other case when I thought of the Hound and Sansa and his kinsguard cloak, and that was during the riot that happened in the streets after Myrcella was taken to Dorne. The Hound protects Sansa from the crowd and brings her to safety, but he did not cover her in his cloak at that time. I don't know if this is supposed to tell us something or not, but the Hound's cloak is bloody at this time as well. But in this case, when Sansa was in danger from a raving crowd, while the Hound saves her, he certainly does not cover her in his cloak.

I do think that the kingsguard cloaks are noted to have blood on them often is interesting, but my mind goes in a million directions.

Your idea of Sansa's white gown that was stained by the blood orange but died black to cover the stain did remind me of a theory I read a couple years back about the possibility that the cloak that Sansa wore after the Purple Wedding when she was escaping with Dontos was actually the Hound's kingsguard cload (smokey and bloody) dyed to disguise it, and that she was still being protected by him during her escape, at least in her mind.

The idea of trying to dye something to cover a stain is interesting to me, and this dress you mentioned and the idea of the cloak might be related. However, the stain is still there, whether you can see it or not, as you had pointed out. But perhaps this does relate to Sansa feeling this way about the once-was-white-but-now-is-black dress, and maybe Sansa feels the stain and does wish to protect herself, or give the impression of being clean and pure, by kneeling on that white cloak of Barristan's. This is certainly possible. I still am hesitant just because of her thoughts during the kneeling, since she seems to be using the cloak only to keep her dress clean. Perhaps she doesn't understand it herself. Except the dress is black and already has a stain that will never wash away, regardless of perception. It is hidden, not cleansed. I see a clear distinction between being covered in a cloak or kneeling on one, but who knows what GRRM intended.

I really have always liked the concept that both Sansa and Arya lost their wolves at the same time, but over the course of their arc, they both were protected by the Hound, as if he is a stand in for their direwolves. I think his life changed at Darry as well, when he killed Micah. It seems to haunt him.

I had another thought that came to mind about the Hound as his cloak, and that is the imagery we get, from Ned's POV, of Micah's remains being wrapped up in his bloody cloak.

He was walking back to the tower to give himself up to sleep at last when Sandor Clegane and his riders came pounding through the castle gate, back from their hunt.

There was something slung over the back of his destrier, a heavy shape wrapped in a bloody cloak. "No sign of your daughter, Hand," the Hound rasped down, "but the day was not wholly wasted. We got her little pet." He reached back and shoved the burden off, and it fell with a thump in front of Ned.

Bending, Ned pulled back the cloak, dreading the words he would have to find for Arya, but it was not Nymeria after all. It was the butcher's boy, Mycah, his body covered in dried blood. He had been cut almost in half from shoulder to waist by some terrible blow struck from above. AGOT-Eddard III

Now, I know this isn't a cloak of kingsguard white, but it is the Hound's cloak, wrapping a murdered child up. This will color our idea's of the Hound and certainly color Arya's idea's of the Hound. It also brings to mind the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon covered in a Lannister red cloak. Not of protection, but in a way of hiding a foul deed. The cloak meanings could be varied and complicated. This incident affected Arya and Sansa and leads us back to the ivory dress stained with a blood orange and dyed black to hide the stain that you mentioned above. What an amazing story GRRM has weaved for us!

So, while looking into any instances of the Hound and Sansa and cloaks (I think you are correct to say that we can find Lyanna imagery in both Sansa and Arya's storylines), I looked into Arya as well. I came across another idea of the Hound's cloak, one is kingsguard white and the other is not, but it is the Hound, no matter what cloak he wears.

Arya recognized the Hound, wearing a snowy white cloak over his dark grey armor, with four of the Kingsguard around him.AGOT-Arya V

It struck me that this is the Hound in Stark colors at the time of Ned's execution. Perhaps something that happened at that moment made the Hound feel he could be a protector of Ned's girls, even if he doesn't recognize it himself. After this, he will have his more noted interactions with Sansa and Arya.

The other one that stood out to me was this:

The Hound no longer watched her as closely as he had. Sometimes he did not seem to care whether she stayed or went, and he no longer bound her up in a cloak at night. ASOS-Arya XII

So, the Hound was binding Arya in his cloak each night that he had her captive, at least up until the time of the Red Wedding, when it seems that both Arya and the Hound go through some major feelings of being lost and helpless. But before this, the Hound wrapped her in his cloak, physically covering her. I understand on a more obvious level, he is doing this to keep her from escaping him, but on a deeper level, this could be him "protecting" her under his cloak. And not in a marriage type of way, which we do get some hints at with he and Sansa, but in a more fatherly way. Perhaps it just reminds me of Arya sleeping in the godswood under Ned's cloak.

This sent me down a fun little rabbit hole search of the Hound's many cloaks and how they pertain to Sansa and Arya. And while I do see the Hound leaving two cloaks with Sansa and her actively choosing to cover herself with those cloaks as important, as she might feel protected, it is actually Arya that the Hound physically wraps in his cloak night after night. He never actually places a cloak on Sansa, she does that herself. I don't know if the slight difference is supposed to mean something or not, but both girls are certainly covered by his cloak at important times in the story.

How could this relate to Lyanna, both a protector who could be kingsguard or someone who was not kingsguard at all? If only we had a character from the past who we know gave up their cloak to help her, no matter what color that cloak must be. Maybe such a thing will be revealed to us in time.

And while this rabbit hold was very, very interesting for me, I apologize because it doesn't have anything to do with parentage! Ooops!

Last Edit: May 1, 2018 18:12:55 GMT by stdaga: spelling and clarification ...yikes!

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1.25 Eddard V May 1, 2018 19:01:09 GMT

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Post by stdaga on May 1, 2018 19:01:09 GMT

It has occurred to me that I never got around to my own notes on possible parentage hints in this chapter (as I fell down a rabbit hole of cloaks) but I had a few thoughts.

Perhaps this has nothing to do with parentage, but there are many similarities in the text between Ned and Jon, and most often I don't note any differences, or what might be inversions of their story, but hot and cold stood out to me in this chapter.

There was no denying the heat; Ned could feel the silk tunic clinging to his chest. Thick, moist air covered the city like a damp woolen blanket, and the riverside had grown unruly as the poor fled their hot, airless warrens to jostle for sleeping places near the water, where the only breath of wind was to be found. AGOT-Eddard V

The weariness came on him suddenly, as he donned the roughspun blacks that were their everyday wear. He sat on a bench, his fingers fumbling with the fastenings on his cloak. So cold, he thought, remembering the warm halls of Winterfell, where the hot waters ran through the walls like blood through a man's body. There was scant warmth to be found in Castle Black; the walls were cold here, and the people colder. AGOT-Jon III

Both Jon and Ned have been basically evicted from their home of Winterfell. One goes north and is so cold he feels he will never be warm again, and one goes south and feels almost suffocated in the heat. I found it to be an interesting difference in these two characters. How would Ned feel at the wall? And how would Jon react to Kings' Landing? Is it supposed to tell us about them as father and son, or is it a hint that there is no way they could be father and son?

It is in this chapter that we get the "seed is strong" imagery.

Just before he closed his eyes for the last time, he whispered something to the king and his lady wife, a blessing for his son. The seed is strong, he said. AGOT-Eddard V

I used to think the king and his lady wife meant Robert and Cersei, but it must mean Robert and Lysa. Pycelle tells us that Cersei and the children were not in Kings Landing (unless Pycelle was just lying about that, and Ned never verified). It is unclear what seed Jon Arryn is talking about. Lysa thinks he means his own seed and in reference to Sweetrobin, or that is how I interpret her crazy ramblings in Storm.

In a later chapter, Ned seems to deduce that this statement is about Robert's seed.

The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal. AGOT-Eddard XII

Perhaps the statement is actually about Lannister seed and Jaime and Cersei. But what if Jon Arryn could have discovered the it might be possible that Aerys was the father of Joanna Lannister's children (pure speculation, of course). Could this be in reference to Targaryen seed?

I don't know that it would be in reference to Ned's seed, although interestingly enough, Bran and Arya and Jon all have some acorn references in their story, and while I could imagine that one of them could be Robert's child, I can't imagine that he fathered them all. So perhaps it does hint at Eddard's seed. Or a combination of Robert and Ned, who seem to share some Oak and Holly symbolism, two sides of the horned god mythos.

"Syrio says a water dancer never falls." She lowered her leg to stand on two feet. "Father, will Bran come and live with us now?"

"Not for a long time, sweet one," he told her. "He needs to win his strength back." AGOT-Eddard V

I am not sure why this stuck out to me this time, but that Ned calls Arya "sweet one" seems like a hint. He actually does it in one of Arya's POV's as well, which I also had never thought on.

Suddenly her father's arms were around her. He held her gently as she turned to him and sobbed against his chest. "No, sweet one," he murmured. "Grieve for your friend, but never blame yourself. You did not kill the butcher's boy. That murder lies at the Hound's door, him and the cruel woman he serves." AGOT-Arya II

"The hard cruel times," her father said. "We tasted them on the Trident, child, and when Bran fell. You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you've never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya."
"The direwolf," she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid. AGOT-Arya II

And then once in Sansa's thoughts.

"Sweet one," her father said gently, "listen to me. When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me." AGOT-Sansa III

I am not sure why this stood out to me this time around, and I was looking at from the perspective of possibly Arya being a grumkin in Eddard's household, but then I seen the wording addressed to Sansa as well. "Sweet one" is something that does not come up much in the books, 10 times by my search count, but used to describe Sweetrobin twice from Lysa, Bran and Rickon from Catelyn's POV, also to Catelyn from the Blackfish. And I am connecting it possibly to House Tully blood. What is a sweet fish?

I was also thinking on it in connection to "sweet sister" which Dany is called often by Viserys and Cersei referred to often by both of her brothers, and wondering if "sweet one" could be a tie to incest as well, but I don't really see a connection. Perhaps it is just GRRM using a phrase to describe a child and I am overthinking it all.

I have several other thoughts, but not tied to parentage at all, and I am really trying to reign in my derailing problem! This methodical reread is making connections pop out at me from all over the place!

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

shymaid
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1.25 Eddard V May 15, 2018 9:18:50 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by shymaid on May 15, 2018 9:18:50 GMT

Almost out of time, so I don't have time to go through the whole post...

I do think that the kingsguard cloaks are noted to have blood on them often is interesting, but my mind goes in a million directions.

Haha, you and me both! Hard to pin down that one!

Your idea of Sansa's white gown that was stained by the blood orange but died black to cover the stain did remind me of a theory I read a couple years back about the possibility that the cloak that Sansa wore after the Purple Wedding when she was escaping with Dontos was actually the Hound's kingsguard cload (smokey and bloody) dyed to disguise it, and that she was still being protected by him during her escape, at least in her mind.

I've heard of that too, and it's an interesting one.

The idea of trying to dye something to cover a stain is interesting to me, and this dress you mentioned and the idea of the cloak might be related. However, the stain is still there, whether you can see it or not, as you had pointed out. But perhaps this does relate to Sansa feeling this way about the once-was-white-but-now-is-black dress, and maybe Sansa feels the stain and does wish to protect herself, or give the impression of being clean and pure, by kneeling on that white cloak of Barristan's. This is certainly possible. I still am hesitant just because of her thoughts during the kneeling, since she seems to be using the cloak only to keep her dress clean. Perhaps she doesn't understand it herself. Except the dress is black and already has a stain that will never wash away, regardless of perception. It is hidden, not cleansed. I see a clear distinction between being covered in a cloak or kneeling on one, but who knows what GRRM intended.

As I said, I'm far from any conclution on Sansa and "her" Kingsguard cloaks, but it could still be something there and it's something I'm having in the back of my mind.
It's was the whole imagery with this that tickled my mind and what it might be telling us in parallell or eccho or something like that.
And no, it's not a perfect fit with a maid being cloaked by a man. Sansa does make use of these cloaks when "available" so to speak, with the time of her beating the only time it's kinda given to her. I don't reread much these days, so it's probably something I'll put down notes on over time. And perhaps coming up with something more than just ideas tossed out there.

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Blood is the seal of our devotion.

stdaga
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1.25 Eddard V May 15, 2018 21:06:22 GMT

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Post by stdaga on May 15, 2018 21:06:22 GMT

May 15, 2018 9:18:50 GMT shymaid said:

Almost out of time, so I don't have time to go through the whole post...

I do think that the kingsguard cloaks are noted to have blood on them often is interesting, but my mind goes in a million directions.

Haha, you and me both! Hard to pin down that one!

Your idea of Sansa's white gown that was stained by the blood orange but died black to cover the stain did remind me of a theory I read a couple years back about the possibility that the cloak that Sansa wore after the Purple Wedding when she was escaping with Dontos was actually the Hound's kingsguard cload (smokey and bloody) dyed to disguise it, and that she was still being protected by him during her escape, at least in her mind.

I've heard of that too, and it's an interesting one.