1.26 Jon IV

Our first introduction to Sam is a little much. But as to his attitude in Jon IV, it's really not that different than Jon's own attitude in Jon III. That is a little pity party by Jon! Perhaps Sam needs a lecture from Donal Noye?


Sometimes Euron does read a bit like a comic book villain, and I am reminded that GRRM is a fan of the comic universe. The Iron Born in general are pretty over the top. Rodrik the Reader is probably my favorite of them all, because he combines some smarts and education with his reaving, but he is still pirating around the Summer Sea on his ship named the Sea Song with a book in hand! Victarion is over the top as well, and I think he is my favorite Greyjoy (sorry Asha) as he makes me laugh out loud the most! I am not sure what GRRM has going on with the Iron Born but I have wondered if it was just to entertain himself!


Sam's mother is a Florent, a cousin to Selyse, I think. And while I don't expect Melessa to be like Selyse, since Sam thinks his mother is kind while I think Selyse is anything but kind, but it is Selyse who was the first major supporter of a R'hller and Melisandre's magic in the story, or so it is implied. The Florent's seem to be supportive of R'hller in general, including Alester who was Melessa's father and was burned at the stake for his mistakes, so perhaps Sam's mother could be persuaded to dark magic! I don't feel strongly about it either way, just see it's a possibility.


I have wondered this also and maybe we discussed it in the past. Wintefell lies right on the kingsroad, and it does seem odd that Sam, as the son of a lord, would not stop for shelter at Winterfell. And Sam must have come up the kingsroad, as he talks about snow in the barrowlands, I think. It reminds me of Robert complaining of the snow to Ned. If Sam did stop at Winterfell, it's odd as hell that he says nothing to Jon about it. Perhaps they just stopped overnight in the Wintertown.


A marriage made in hell!


Good point. We don'e know what LF said to Brandon, or what Brandon told Ned. But we do later find out that LF has bragged of taking Catelyn's maidenhead, and that seems to be known by at least a few people in Kings Landing. And honestly, it would crack me up to find out that Cat did sleep with LF at some point in her teenage years. Still, I think the "queen of love" indicates unrequited sexual relations. So, nope to LF/Cat and nope to Rhaegar/Lyanna. 


I do think he uses certain phrases with care. And there is some thought into Dorne currently being a huge inversion of the North in the past. But it just pisses me off that he won't publish the damn book, but reads chapters willy nilly, and then publishes Fire and Blood first!


That's the probably least of my connection between the Stark's and Targaryen's, but it does fit. And would be more accepted in Weseteros and the fandom, I think. Many people forgive this quirk in Targaryen blood, even Catelyn! But my initial and primary suspicion is that the houses of the first men practiced incest, and have for thousands of years. I know what Cat tells us about the first men viewing products of incest as abominations, but she is Andal and Faith of the Seven raised, and neither is tolerant of incest. As several of the Targaryen's found out. I think that the north just did there own thing until Aegon's conquest, and probably things like that were not heavily known about in the south. I understand there were both maester's and septons in the North before Aegon's conquest, but I think the region itself was not as heavily controlled or catalogued.

In the North, I think incest was probably practiced more than people would think, but not in every generation. The Stark's perhaps more than other's because of the skinchanger gene, which I think is very similar or the same as the dragon-boding/dragon-riding gene. I think that genetic component might have been why the Stark's were interested in a Targaryen marriage. The Stark's were losing that genetic component, and needed a fresh dose of the right blood. And the Targaryen's of the time had it. Tinfoil, I know! I also speculate as far as the first men go, that half-sibling marriage might have been fine, while full sibling marriage might not have been. Odd distinction, but it's something I wonder about. No proof, just speculation! I am full of speculations!

Aegon submitted to the Faith of the Seven, but that caused the Targaryen's a lot of problems over the years. Aegon also just did what ever the fook he wanted, because dragons! As soon as he is dead, the Faith of the Seven starts to push back, taking advantage of a weak Aenys I and when Maegor I pushed back, it was very ugly! Aenys was afraid to use the dragons, but Maegor was not! But those wars came down to incest and polygamous marriage, two things that I don't think is that frowned upon in the north, at least before the conquest.




Some of those thoughts come from me looking at parallel's between things that seem to be opposites, like House Stark and Lannister. As to Lyanna's age, I am not certain she died when she was 16.


Brandon was twenty when he died. Lyanna had been only sixteen. But it's not stated she was sixteen when she died, that is implication, but implications are dangerous in this text. This could be read that Lyanna had been sixteen when Brandon died at twenty. It's an option that makes Lyanna a little older. I just think it's a possibility to consider but I know that her age of death is 16 is accepted as canon, but I just have some doubt because I have come to see how misleading GRRM can be.

So, that would make Lyanna and Ned only two years apart. And while Jaime and Cersei are twins, I don't think that makes them any more likely to commit incest than any other siblings in this story. They are not identical, so they have no greater genetic tie than any full siblings. The incest idea makes sense to me of Ned's need to hide the facts of Jon's birth, and to certainly not tell Cat about it, since we know her opinion on abominations. If this started at a young age or just sort of bloomed at Harrenhal, I can't say. But Harrenhal is key to so much in this story.


Several years ago, I read the whole series in 7 days. I had time off from work, and it was winter, and I just could not stop reading. I showered and took my dog out to pee, and fed my horses, but otherwise, I just read and read. But at the end, my head felt as numb and overloaded as could be. Now, I try to limit myself to no more than 3 chapter's a day, so it gives me time to think and make connections. I am still currently bogged down at the red wedding!


Oh yes, and Wylla Manderly, which indicates a northern name (or maybe a name from the reach), plus there are Wyl's in Dorne that I can't ignore that have Wylla's hanging about. We also have Wylla Fenn, in the Stark family lineage, who was a woman who bore a Brandon Stark a bastard named Lonnel Snow. I can't tell if this is a hint or trolling!


Just from looking at Sansa and Arya, I would think that Lyanna had at least one assumed identity, as we see with Sansa, and possibly more, as we see with Arya.


I have wondered if this was possible as well, but we have no indication that Tywin had entered the Red Keep at this time. But I do think he is well aware of the hidden tunnels, and he could have snuck in and done this terrible thing even before Gregor got to the chamber. But you are also correct when you point out that Tywin seems to let other people get their hands dirty, while he gives commands and acts holier than thou!



Just following the peaches! It's all pretty wild, I know! Speculation at it's best!


Grenn is a huge stretch. And he has no peaches in his story!  Just little things connect Robert and Grenn. And weirdly enough, we get a little backstory on all the boys in Jon's circle who come to the wall, but we don't get any of that about Grenn. Perhaps we do, and I missed it. That lack of detail is odd, especially considering that GRRM keeps coming back to him as a character, both around Jon and Sam.


Well, "the Usurper" is most definitely Robert. As to what JonCon means about "his line" that could be more open to interpretation, but I think he is including at least children of his marriage (even if they are not Robert's seed) and probably claimed bastards like Edric Storm. Maybe any children that Stannis or Renly might have, too. I just would enjoy the irony of JonCon trying to destroy Robert's line while he is actually supporting one of Robert's bastards for the throne. If Aegon is Robert's, then I wonder who his mother could be. Could Ashara have had a Harrenhal baby with Robert and later had a child with Rhaegar (Dany)? Maybe that is just to much...

Oh, speaking of Robert's bastards, I noticed last night that I put Sam on that list, and I am almost certain that Sam is not Robert's child. I speculate that Sam is Rhaegar's but obviously posting while tired and with several threads in my mind at once is confusing for me. I will have to update my list of wild speculation!


He certainly could.


Yes, I have wondered this also, and if he did, then what was Mance's goal? Does he suspect there is something in Craster's blood that he needs? I just imagine that if this happened, then Craster would be so much more angry about Mance than he is. But I do enjoy the thought! And having two of Craster's sons, living at the wall, and the baby switch involving children with the same father and genetic line with neither of them Mance's is kind of funny. And what could that mean for the concept of a baby swap in the past?

I must go feed horses! They will be so crabby!