Post by stdaga on Jun 4, 2018 23:15:23 GMT
We have certain images from the past that seem to be trying to tell their tale in the current story line. Harrenhal is one, and the idea of what happened at the tower of joy is another. But probably one of the greatest events that happened in the past that kicked off the the Targaryen fall from power was the story of the kidnapping of Lyanna Stark by Rhaegar Targaryen. Although the fan base greatly debates the details, the story gives is the idea of the kidnapping of a Stark maid by a the Targaryen prince who wielded his silver harp as well as his sword.
Of course, this seems hinted at in the Bael the Bard tale (but since we don't hear about that for another book, I will leave that alone for now), but another place where I think we see strong echoes of that past "kidnapping" are when Catelyn Tully Stark arrests Tyrion Lannister for the attempted murder of her son. Now, I don't think anyone ever says that Cat kidnapped Tyrion, but I wonder at how similar our details might be. And since I believe that the idea of parentage of at least one of our mystery babies is influenced by the events of Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance, then this chapter might be worth a little look see.
We don't know what Lyanna's reaction to her "crowning" at Harrenhal, but it seems she is fearless and bold, as shown by her riding ability and her lack of fear in taking up tourney swords against trained squires at Harrenhal. If she had not liked being singled out, might she take revenge if the chance crossed her path. Like Tyrion crossed Cat's path at the Inn at the Crossroads?
If we look at the inversion, might the story not be that Rhaegar took Lyanna, but that Lyanna took Rhaegar, and not for love and romantic reasons.
If we look at this as a echo of the past, with a fairly straight path, we might see Lyanna, mirror a Stark she-wolf, as Tyrion refers to Cat, take Rhaegar prisoner for some act against her family, in the same way that Cat takes Tyrion. With no more than a sworn sword and a few bold words.
**
In this chapter, we see Cat take Tyrion and his two men prisoner, after coming across them by chance. She drums up some men on the promise of payment, and boldly declares they are going to Winterfell for trial, while she actually travels east to the Eyrie. Along the way, in the Mountains of the Moon, they run into trouble, which allows Tyrion to gain both the support of some men as well as weaponry, leaving Tyrion a prisoner technically, but not a prisoner who acts like a prisoner, with the same weapons and rights of any other member of the party. At least until he get's to the Eyrie, where he quickly loses anything he had gained. There is a bard in this version of events, Marillion, but I don't know if the part that Rhaegar plays is mirrored in Marillion, or if Rhaegar's part is played in either the kidnapped or the kidnapper.
If we look at this as straight on repetition, which GRRM rarely gives us, we might see that Lyanna and Rhaegar crossed paths by accident, and our she wolf Lyanna decided to boldly capture Rhaegar for a wrong he had done her family. What that wrong could be, I don't know, but it might have occurred at Harrenhal. Either way, in this version, the she wolf captures the member of the royal family and spirit's him off in captivity. In my head canon, this is the story that feels very possible to me, because it is shown to us directly in the text, which is the version of Cat and Tyrion in place of Lyanna and Rhaegar, while what is implied in the text between Lyanna and Rhaegar is almost the opposite of what the story implies. GRRM is messing with implication all the time in his story, but I admit I get lost sometimes it trying to out think his hints.
Now, Prince Silverstring and the Wolf Maid could have crossed paths by accident, just as we see with Cat and Tyrion, and on a whim, Rhaegar decided to capture Lyanna for crimes against his family. But it doesn't make sense that Rhaegar would go east, but he might claim to go south, while actually going west. If Rhaegar saw the Westerlands as a safe haven as Cat see's the vale as a haven, then this has potential. This would be the inversion of the events we see with Cat and Tyrion. Either way, this places Rhaegar and Lyanna together, although we don't know how long they were together or how well they got on.
Lyanna could have claimed they would travel the north road while traveling east instead. If Ned and Robert where in the Eyrie at this time, it makes sense she would have felt it was a safe place to travel. And it might give us some explanation of who the person that Ned left the vale with, to travel north to call his banner's. It was Lyanna. (Although to be honest, I see most of the hints that this women with Ned was Ashara)
In no way does it seem possible that Cat and Tyrion would have become lovers on the road, although sex is hinted at from Tyrion's glib tongue after the battle on the road.
Even though we don't see Cat and Tyrion become lovers, is it possible that Lyanna and Rhaegar did, regardless of who kidnapped whom? Being lovers could very well lead to conception of one of the children in our story. This could mean it was neither rape nor love that led them together, only lust after a battle. If RLJ, I find this more likely than the Paris/Helen type love story we see, or the idea of a mad and prophecy driven prince raping a child-woman to plant TPtwP!
Or perhaps as we see, with Cat and Tyrion not being lovers, and never becoming lovers, we can read from that that Rhaegar and Lyanna also never became lovers, therefore never procreated a prophecy baby together?
**
If Lyanna did kidnap Rhaegar in such a way, I could well see his pride wounded and great anger directed toward Lyanna and the Starks, just as Tyrion directs anger toward Cat, but the entire Stark family, as well. But, if Lyanna did take Rhaegar, what about the six companion's he rode with? Shouldn't they have been able to protect him? To help him? That is why I can see the inversion, with Rhaegar taking Lyanna on a whim, but going west while claiming south, to be in play as well. Unless Rhaegar at some point had been parted with his companions and was alone when Lyanna came across him?
**
This could indicate that Lyanna was trying to be incognito in the riverlands, but Rhaegar blew her cover, and she in turn, took him captive. It would fit the more obvious mirror of our current story, but GRRM doesn't seem to right direct mirror's, so perhaps a crooked echo.
Or perhaps, in what happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna, Rhaegar did play the bard, who just happened to be caught in the middle with someone kidnapping someone else. But would the crown prince really be traveling alone and exposed? But we will later see Marillion attempt to rape Sansa, another she-wolf Stark maid, and while this idea would fit well with the idea that we are initially told of Rhaegar the rapist from Robert's mouth, as much as the story line directs us to think this occurred, I am not sure that is how events went down.
If Sansa is a stand in for Lyanna and Marillion for Rhaegar the singer, in this current story we see Sansa protected by a Lothar Brune, and with Marillion the singer dead, there is no longer a chance he can violate Sansa. This also hints to me that Rhaegar and Lyanna in this scenario never became lovers. still, it's possible, I just don't see it likely.
Just as in either scenario I can imagine, with Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna, or Lyanna kidnapping Rhaegar, the current kidnapping we are told about, with a she-wolf and a member of the royal family, Cat and Tyrion are never lovers, and never will be, since Cat is dead, and while she is still kicking, I doubt a zombified Cat is Tyrion's idea of a good time!
**
My take away's are that no matter who took who when it comes to Rhaegar and Lyanna or what the intent was, there is no reason to believe that they became lovers, either looking at Cat and Tyrion's interactions, or looking at Marillion and Sansa's interactions. Although, if not for Lothor Brune, Sansa would have been overpowered by Marillion and raped, which certainly is still a possibility with Rhaegar and Lyanna.
So, in this chapter, I see lot's of possibilities for Lyanna and Rhaegar's story, and I am not convinced on any of them, but so far the text doesn't convince me one way or another. If only I knew if we were supposed to looking for mirror's or inversions or crooked echoes!!!
**
Just a small observation about plot. I have always found it odd that Tyrion is so glib tongued and willing to attempt to talk his way out of any situation, but he doesn't even attempt to convince the crowd in the inn that Catelyn is incorrect. He could have at least tried. He denies it once, the one, half-assed attempt, then he is done. Plot, I guess... GRRM wanted to get them to the Eyrie, and I can only speculate this pattern has something to do with telling us what happened in the past, with another kidnapping that kick-started a war!
Another foreshadowing that GRRM is so good at in the text is Catelyn stepping up behind the moonbrother and cutting his throat, which hint's at her own death when the enemy steps up behind her, pulls her head back and cut's her throat. It also shows us she is unafraid to take a life, which shows us that perhaps Arya is more like her mother than we think, and also that Lyanna might not have been afraid to kill a man at well.
Of course, this seems hinted at in the Bael the Bard tale (but since we don't hear about that for another book, I will leave that alone for now), but another place where I think we see strong echoes of that past "kidnapping" are when Catelyn Tully Stark arrests Tyrion Lannister for the attempted murder of her son. Now, I don't think anyone ever says that Cat kidnapped Tyrion, but I wonder at how similar our details might be. And since I believe that the idea of parentage of at least one of our mystery babies is influenced by the events of Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance, then this chapter might be worth a little look see.
We don't know what Lyanna's reaction to her "crowning" at Harrenhal, but it seems she is fearless and bold, as shown by her riding ability and her lack of fear in taking up tourney swords against trained squires at Harrenhal. If she had not liked being singled out, might she take revenge if the chance crossed her path. Like Tyrion crossed Cat's path at the Inn at the Crossroads?
If we look at the inversion, might the story not be that Rhaegar took Lyanna, but that Lyanna took Rhaegar, and not for love and romantic reasons.
If we look at this as a echo of the past, with a fairly straight path, we might see Lyanna, mirror a Stark she-wolf, as Tyrion refers to Cat, take Rhaegar prisoner for some act against her family, in the same way that Cat takes Tyrion. With no more than a sworn sword and a few bold words.
**
In this chapter, we see Cat take Tyrion and his two men prisoner, after coming across them by chance. She drums up some men on the promise of payment, and boldly declares they are going to Winterfell for trial, while she actually travels east to the Eyrie. Along the way, in the Mountains of the Moon, they run into trouble, which allows Tyrion to gain both the support of some men as well as weaponry, leaving Tyrion a prisoner technically, but not a prisoner who acts like a prisoner, with the same weapons and rights of any other member of the party. At least until he get's to the Eyrie, where he quickly loses anything he had gained. There is a bard in this version of events, Marillion, but I don't know if the part that Rhaegar plays is mirrored in Marillion, or if Rhaegar's part is played in either the kidnapped or the kidnapper.
If we look at this as straight on repetition, which GRRM rarely gives us, we might see that Lyanna and Rhaegar crossed paths by accident, and our she wolf Lyanna decided to boldly capture Rhaegar for a wrong he had done her family. What that wrong could be, I don't know, but it might have occurred at Harrenhal. Either way, in this version, the she wolf captures the member of the royal family and spirit's him off in captivity. In my head canon, this is the story that feels very possible to me, because it is shown to us directly in the text, which is the version of Cat and Tyrion in place of Lyanna and Rhaegar, while what is implied in the text between Lyanna and Rhaegar is almost the opposite of what the story implies. GRRM is messing with implication all the time in his story, but I admit I get lost sometimes it trying to out think his hints.
Now, Prince Silverstring and the Wolf Maid could have crossed paths by accident, just as we see with Cat and Tyrion, and on a whim, Rhaegar decided to capture Lyanna for crimes against his family. But it doesn't make sense that Rhaegar would go east, but he might claim to go south, while actually going west. If Rhaegar saw the Westerlands as a safe haven as Cat see's the vale as a haven, then this has potential. This would be the inversion of the events we see with Cat and Tyrion. Either way, this places Rhaegar and Lyanna together, although we don't know how long they were together or how well they got on.
Lyanna could have claimed they would travel the north road while traveling east instead. If Ned and Robert where in the Eyrie at this time, it makes sense she would have felt it was a safe place to travel. And it might give us some explanation of who the person that Ned left the vale with, to travel north to call his banner's. It was Lyanna. (Although to be honest, I see most of the hints that this women with Ned was Ashara)
In no way does it seem possible that Cat and Tyrion would have become lovers on the road, although sex is hinted at from Tyrion's glib tongue after the battle on the road.
"You need a woman now," Bronn said with a glint in his black eyes. He shoved the boots into his saddlebag. "Nothing like a woman after a man's been blooded, take my word."
Chiggen stopped looting the corpses of the brigands long enough to snort and lick his lips.
Tyrion glanced over to where Lady Stark was dressing Ser Rodrik's wounds. "I'm willing if she is," he said. The freeriders broke into laughter, and Tyrion grinned and thought, There's a start. AGOT-Tyrion IV
Chiggen stopped looting the corpses of the brigands long enough to snort and lick his lips.
Tyrion glanced over to where Lady Stark was dressing Ser Rodrik's wounds. "I'm willing if she is," he said. The freeriders broke into laughter, and Tyrion grinned and thought, There's a start. AGOT-Tyrion IV
Even though we don't see Cat and Tyrion become lovers, is it possible that Lyanna and Rhaegar did, regardless of who kidnapped whom? Being lovers could very well lead to conception of one of the children in our story. This could mean it was neither rape nor love that led them together, only lust after a battle. If RLJ, I find this more likely than the Paris/Helen type love story we see, or the idea of a mad and prophecy driven prince raping a child-woman to plant TPtwP!
Or perhaps as we see, with Cat and Tyrion not being lovers, and never becoming lovers, we can read from that that Rhaegar and Lyanna also never became lovers, therefore never procreated a prophecy baby together?
**
Catelyn Stark favored him with the faintest of smiles. "Often and loudly," she agreed. "No doubt your friends will ride that way when they come after us. I wish them good speed."
Even now, long days later, the memory filled him with a bitter rage. All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn. The knowledge was more galling than the bare fact of his abduction. AGOT-Tyrion IV
Even now, long days later, the memory filled him with a bitter rage. All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn. The knowledge was more galling than the bare fact of his abduction. AGOT-Tyrion IV
If Lyanna did kidnap Rhaegar in such a way, I could well see his pride wounded and great anger directed toward Lyanna and the Starks, just as Tyrion directs anger toward Cat, but the entire Stark family, as well. But, if Lyanna did take Rhaegar, what about the six companion's he rode with? Shouldn't they have been able to protect him? To help him? That is why I can see the inversion, with Rhaegar taking Lyanna on a whim, but going west while claiming south, to be in play as well. Unless Rhaegar at some point had been parted with his companions and was alone when Lyanna came across him?
**
I was about to settle down to a warm fire and a roast fowl, and that wretched singer had to open his mouth, he thought mournfully. The wretched singer had come along with them. "There is a great song to be made from this, and I'm the one to make it," he told Catelyn Stark when he announced his intention of riding with them to see how the "splendid adventure" turned out. AGOT-Tyrion IV
This could indicate that Lyanna was trying to be incognito in the riverlands, but Rhaegar blew her cover, and she in turn, took him captive. It would fit the more obvious mirror of our current story, but GRRM doesn't seem to right direct mirror's, so perhaps a crooked echo.
Or perhaps, in what happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna, Rhaegar did play the bard, who just happened to be caught in the middle with someone kidnapping someone else. But would the crown prince really be traveling alone and exposed? But we will later see Marillion attempt to rape Sansa, another she-wolf Stark maid, and while this idea would fit well with the idea that we are initially told of Rhaegar the rapist from Robert's mouth, as much as the story line directs us to think this occurred, I am not sure that is how events went down.
If Sansa is a stand in for Lyanna and Marillion for Rhaegar the singer, in this current story we see Sansa protected by a Lothar Brune, and with Marillion the singer dead, there is no longer a chance he can violate Sansa. This also hints to me that Rhaegar and Lyanna in this scenario never became lovers. still, it's possible, I just don't see it likely.
Just as in either scenario I can imagine, with Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna, or Lyanna kidnapping Rhaegar, the current kidnapping we are told about, with a she-wolf and a member of the royal family, Cat and Tyrion are never lovers, and never will be, since Cat is dead, and while she is still kicking, I doubt a zombified Cat is Tyrion's idea of a good time!
**
My take away's are that no matter who took who when it comes to Rhaegar and Lyanna or what the intent was, there is no reason to believe that they became lovers, either looking at Cat and Tyrion's interactions, or looking at Marillion and Sansa's interactions. Although, if not for Lothor Brune, Sansa would have been overpowered by Marillion and raped, which certainly is still a possibility with Rhaegar and Lyanna.
So, in this chapter, I see lot's of possibilities for Lyanna and Rhaegar's story, and I am not convinced on any of them, but so far the text doesn't convince me one way or another. If only I knew if we were supposed to looking for mirror's or inversions or crooked echoes!!!
**
Just a small observation about plot. I have always found it odd that Tyrion is so glib tongued and willing to attempt to talk his way out of any situation, but he doesn't even attempt to convince the crowd in the inn that Catelyn is incorrect. He could have at least tried. He denies it once, the one, half-assed attempt, then he is done. Plot, I guess... GRRM wanted to get them to the Eyrie, and I can only speculate this pattern has something to do with telling us what happened in the past, with another kidnapping that kick-started a war!
Another foreshadowing that GRRM is so good at in the text is Catelyn stepping up behind the moonbrother and cutting his throat, which hint's at her own death when the enemy steps up behind her, pulls her head back and cut's her throat. It also shows us she is unafraid to take a life, which shows us that perhaps Arya is more like her mother than we think, and also that Lyanna might not have been afraid to kill a man at well.