1.32: Arya III

I don't know why, but every time I have tried to look at this chapter, my mind went about 15 directions at once, and I just could not concentrate. But I finally got to the end. Ton's and ton's of hints and symbolism in this chapter, but only a few things that might pertain to parentage. I am trying really hard to stick just to parentage, but ...


It is also reminiscent of Dany's House of the Undying visions. Not sure if these dreams are related to parentage or not, but it seems pretty obvious that the dreams are NOT just related to dragon blood.

The circular stairs and the calling out for another person are very like Jon's dreams. But Jon is never lost in his dreams, he knows where he is at and where he is going. He has trepidation but isn't lost. He states he is in Winterfell, sometimes in the crypts and sometimes above ground, and not in a place other than that. I don't think Jon is dreaming of being in the Red Keep.

I have always thought it was interesting that Arya felt like the walls ran red with blood. I don't know if that is a hint to the blood that went into the building of the castle and the death of the constructions workers on Maegor's orders after it was completed, or if it was based on the concept of the blood that was shed during the Targaryen conquest. Or related to all the people who have died or will die in the Red Keep.



While Arya does express that she feels the dragon skull is aware that she is there in the room, the line about "something in that dim, cavernous room that did not love her" reads as something besides the dragon skulls. "Something" is mentioned in the same sentence as the dragon skulls, which to me indicates she is describing the skulls AND something else that does not love her. Else she would just describe the skull's and state that THEY did not love her. My impression is that there might be something else in that room watching Arya.

Being a Targaryen didn't save many of that blood from being attacked by dragons in war, or a select few being burned by dragons or eaten by dragons. I don't think her racing through the jaws of a dragon necessarily negates the possibility of dragon blood for Arya.

Since you highlighted this passage, I suddenly had a thought on Valyrian steel. The dragon teeth are noted to be like black dagger's made of darkness and black teeth as tall as swords and I had a thought that perhaps dragonbone is the important component of Valyrian steel? After all, not only was knowledge lost with Valyria but so were the majority of dragons in the world. And we know that the knowledge still exists to work Valyrian steel (we see that with Tobho Mott, and apparently the maester's who have Valyrian steel links on their chains) so perhaps the key ingredient to make the steel was truly what was lost in the Doom, not the knowledge as much as the means.


Just because Arya might have met Varys once or twice doesn't mean she would recognize him in disguise. She does think there is something familiar but that isn't very specific, but she does seem more in tune to him than some others. Both Ned and Tryion know Varys by sight and are fooled by his disguises. Interestingly, Shae easily recognizes Varys in disguise, so perhaps a female intuition does sense something that a male does not sense?


It's not really, although it is interesting that the people we see use these passages are people like Jaime and Tyrion, as well as Varys and Illyrio. There are hints that Tywin could have used the passages, and Arya uses them to escape the Lannister's on two occasions, although only the second time she knows where she is going, which is the same time that she feels like the dragon's felt almost like old friends.

But it could be a hint of dragon blood, too. I can't discount it either way. It would not shock me at all to find that Varys or Illyrio have blood of the dragon.

Some interesting symbolism in this scene is Varys and Illyrio emerging from a circular stair case well below their current level, with Varys carrying a torch and Illyiro huffing and puffing a bit, with Arya watching them, is very reminincent of the Nightfort, with Sam and Gilly climbing out of a circular stair way at the Nightfort, with Gilly carrying her son and Sam huffing and puffing, while Bran watches. I think there is a connection there, although whether that is a blood type connection or not, I can't begin to say. Just that Varys, Illyrio, Sam and Gilly seem to be spit from the depth of the earth while Arya and Bran are in observation mode.


Well, Ned did soon have the truth (of Cersei's children). Which seems to be what Varys is talking about. Gendry does fit the idea of the bastard that Ned found. And Ned did soon find Barra, another of Robert's bastards. He already know of Mya and had held her when she was an infant. 

The connection of Arya's mind going to "the bastard" being Jon is probably because Jon is the only bastard that she knows, or at least that would be of a concern to Ned. (For as observant as Arya is, she goes through two books at Gendry's side and has no clue he is Robert's son). It could be a hint that Jon is not Ned's bastard at all, and much is made of this in regards to RLJ, but I would say if "the bastard" does hint at Jon, then it connect's Jon and Gendry, both as Robert's bastards. Still, Ned doesn't follow why Arya would even bring up Jon, and it seems possible that means that Ned could never imagine that anything that pertains to Jon or his parentage would be important to the Red Keep or King's Landing. But then I remember that Ned felt like Jon could not come to court, so it makes me question it all. Like I am on a teeter totter with this concept, up and down, up and down, and can't seem to decide when to get off the ride.


I also think that the mistake of Arya as a boy hint's at her future of disguises, but it could have to do with parentage. It also gives Yoren a quick idea to disguise her to get her out of King's Landing, which he might not have thought of if he hadn't met her in Ned's solar. Still, I don't know if that discounts Jon and Ned. Arya is dressed like a boy here, and I think that is a lot of why people think she is a boy. If she was wearing a dress, I doubt Yoren would doubt she was a girl. But we are told that Arya has Ned's look. But we are also told that Jon and Arya look alike. But Yoren would certainly be familiar with Jon's looks, as they traveled to the wall together, or they shared at least part of that journey. Perhaps this statement "And this must be your son. He has your look.", is because Yoren has seen Jon, who is a son of Ned's (as far as the world knows) and now looks at Arya (thinking she is a boy) but immediately recognizes Ned's look about her. He is recognizing two children of Ned's with ease. So perhaps that is our first real clue in the story to show us how much Jon does look like Ned, and Arya, too! And that these are both the child of his seed. Interesting that just prior in the story, there is discussion of Robert's bastard, who seems to have his father's look, and to Ned's children, two of whom seem to have his look. But perhaps it is just a Baratheon look and a Stark look, and not a Robert look and an Eddard look?

So his certainly doesn't discount that Lyanna could be Jon's mother with some father besides a Stark, and he might look just like her, and that is where is Stark look's come from. I'm just not sure about the idea that Arya is girl mistaken for a boy who looks like her father, is a hint that Jon must be a child of a female Stark and not a male Stark.

I have a few other thoughts, but I will put them in a separate post.

I misunderstood, I guess. I thought you were saying that perhaps Jon's dreams were about the Red Keep, since that was what Arya's dreams were about.


Well, Arya has a strong connection to blood running (death, anyway) and Harrenhal. Red and blood seem to fit the idea of the red stone used to build the Red Keep, where as I don't know if we are told what color the stones for Harrenhal were, only that it burned black in places, or at least it has black walls and looks like a black candle. However, as you point out, their is a connection between the death of workers in the Red Keep and Harrenhal. Maegor killed all his workers, while Harren's worker's died in the construction process, as well as the tole of blood that Harren took from the riverlands to build his ginormous castle.


Well, to be fair, Ned thinks the Kings of Winter are giving him the stink-eye, too! But in reality, the text doesn't indicate that Ned is uncomfortable with the dragon skulls. He notes them on several occasions, and says it felt like they watched him, but he never describes accusation or discomfort.





No guilt, no trepidation, but Ned is aware of them. Twice he thinks they are watching, but he doesn't report fear or dread or unease. He does associate the great hall with blood and red, but that makes sense, as Ned associates the great hall with both Aerys blood as well as the blood of Rhaenys and Aegon, (as well as where we are told that Richard and Brandon Stark died in the great hall) and it foreshadow's the blood of Ned's men that will soon be shed in this very hall.


Oh, I don't think this is confirmation in any sense, I just don't think it negates the possibility of dragon blood.


I think we have a couple who were eaten by dragons, not during battle. I can only think of one off the top of my head. We are told that Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon Sunfyre. And Shireen, who has dragon blood, dreams of dragons trying to eat her, which is interesting, as these dreams occur at Dragonstone, where Rhaenyra met this fate.

I guess my point is that dragon blood doesn't protect your from dragons, any more than it keeps scary dreams of dragons at bay.


When she escapes the Red Keep after Ned's men are attacked and Ned is taken prisoner.


Here, Arya uses fire to help her find her way, so this time she can see the shadow's of the dragons. We also get this impression of the shadows in the crypts with flickering light around them that seem to move. Certainly it is similar. And Arya here is no longer frightened of the skulls, and feels thay are "almost old friends". Still, she want's to keep Needle close, but the text never indicates that she is afraid of the skulls or shadows. Agree that Arya is pretty quick to overcome any fears she might have.




Well, Ned is willing to train Gendry in the ways of warfare, and since Ned is in the Red Keep, if Gendry came to him, it would be in the Red Keep as well. So, I don't know that Ned does fear Robert's bastards in the Red Keep. As a matter of fact, if Gendry looks so much like Robert, then it might be obvious to everyone. Perhaps Ned wanted to toss this in Cersei's face a bit, although I have a hard time thinking that Ned would place Gendry in a dangerous position. Hmmm...



No, Jon doesn't resemble Robert, at least not in physical looks that are reported in the text. Did I imply that? If I did, it was in a mistake. It is Gendry that looks like Robert. The connection I meant was that both Jon and Gendry are both bastards.


Haha! Probably not, but you never know. People see what they want to see. Although we do have a much more older Meera who dresses in male clothing and no one seems to be confused about her. She isn't trying to hide she is female, either, though! I just always think back to Brave Danny Flint, and how she must have fooled many people for a while at least, until she didn't ...


Well, falling star's don't have anything to do with star's either. Star's are sun's. While falling star's are usually meteoroids that burn up on contact with the atmosphere. Comet's are space debris as well, just made of ice instead of rock or other particles, with noted particles and debris that leave a noticable path.

So I was looking at the idea of an object in the sky, with a noticable path or tail, whether it's an actual comet or a meteoroid, which both leave viewable paths behind them, or an actual star (which doesn't leave a path at all).



Sure, I guess I can see how specific you are with this, but lilac is certainly a shade of purple. I am curious why you associate the Dayne's so closely to the color lilac? Ashara's eyes are noted to be purple. I can't find a text descriptor for lilac that is associated to the Dayne's at all. I know the wiki lists their sigil as lilac in color, but that connection doesn't seem to link to any text evidence.  As to lilac in the text, it does link to a few things. GRRM certainly doesn't overuse the color. While Varys has lilac eyes, so does Viserys and Lysono Maar. And Varys does where lilac, but so does Arya and Nymeria Sand, and Dany speaks of Hizdahr's family wearing lilac tokar's. 


Hmm! I guess I have never heard of Varys as a Dayne descendant before. Do you have any links to theories I could look at? I would find that interesting, as I think Varys and his motivations are not what they seem. Perhaps Varys has connection of some sort to Ashara and Arthur, as they all would have been at court together at some time before the rebellion.

Sorry, couldn't resist... I kinda liked having 999 as well, it's such a nice number.

Hard to say how GRRM might be intending to use it. Jon is noted several times to be the "blood of Winterfell", as well as of "Lord Eddard's blood". Sansa refers to herself once as the "blood of Winterfell", and Arnolf Karstark is noted by Stannis to be the blood of Winterfell, which Jon scoff's at a bit, and say's no more than half the other houses in the North (this might prove to be important). I suppose the meaning can change, depending on who is using it or what they want. I would think it would certainly include trueborn and bastards of at least one generation back. IF it was "SON of Winterfell" I might even include Theon. But Theon has no Stark blood that we have been told yet, although he does think of Theon Stark as his namesake, which has always stood out to me as somewhat odd!

As to "son of Starfall", we only get that term once in the world book, and it's usage is not at all specific in details, but it seems that whoever can claim to be "son of Starfall" could wield Dawn, which could mean that person just needs to be born at Starfall, or born of Dayne blood through the female or male line, and not need to be legitimate. Or I have seen it theorized that even breastfed by a resident of Starfall could apply, but that seems a stretch for me. We have very little to go by. It does seem to discount women, which I think is kind of odd, as GRRM is pretty forward thinking about his female character's.


It's ton's of details, and also you get carried away with the story, and so sometimes have to drop the little details in order to carry on with the flow of the story. Seriously, after my second read of Dance, I actually had spaced that Kevan Lannister is killed. No shit! I think I was still to upset about Jon's last chapter to retain anything that happened after ... even with two readings ...


I don't know if Ned really understood what a danger Cersei could be to children such as Gendry. Probably some of this comes from Cat never trying to kill baby Jon as far as well know. It lessened his guard a bit...


I admit I didn't look over every SSM when looking for this information, but I did read several on the Dayne's and found nothing about their sigil. Doesn't mean it's not there somewhere. And some of the SSM's have been altered or deleted over the years, if they are thought to be spoilerish, so the information might lie in one of those deleted/edited posts. Lilac is very specific, while faded or pale or light purple is not. That is why I question where the information comes from in the wiki. I normally don't put much faith in the wiki, especially if I can't track the information back to text or SSM. But perhaps it is a hint to the lilac we get in our story. Which is interesting, since that is a color that is associated right of the top of the story, and several times in the story, in relation to Viserys. But perhaps that part of the story was still being built in GRRM's head, even as he was continuing to write. There is no doubt this story is somewhat fluid in development as he goes. Probably why it's taking so long to get the next book!



Thanks. I have started reading the first theory, but it will take time to get through the comments. I am on page 2 and it's 27 pages. It got some action over there. It's funny how I recently came across the possibility of Gerald "Darkstar" Dayne being descended through this line from Aerion Brightflame's son Maegor. Or he is Aerys's bastard, or he is Aerys and Rhaella's legitimate son in hiding. Lot's of Darkstar theories, what with his eyes and hair and "most dangerous man in Dorne" reading like the "most interesting man in the world" Dos Equis commercial. (sorry, I know we are not talking about Darkstar, but the link to Aerion tiggered all that)

As an aside about Aerion Brightflame, I have often wondered about his dragon sigil. His dragon sigil had three different colored heads, yellow, orange and red, (I think we discussed this color theme before) and I have often wondered how that applies to the "dragon has three heads" idea. Three heads, each different than the others could make it important. He might be one of the reasons I finally pick up the Dunk and Egg novel's, mostly because he was such a nemesis to Egg. I find all of the Targaryen's that just drop off the face of the earth to be pretty interesting and Aerion's son Maegor is one such. I will have to look into the details of the theory you linked before I make up my mind in regards to Varys, I guess, but I see the potential for someone important to come from this line. So far I am getting that the theory follows that Varys would be descended from Aerion's possible bastards in Essos, however, and not his legitimate line (but I am only on page 2). Interestingly, Rhaegar used to wear red, orange and gold silken streamers from his helm, which echoes Aerion's sigil. Oddly, Aerion is noted to be a total nut job asshole (aka The Monsterous) by most everyone, while Rhaegar seems well loved, but I am not sure Prince Silverstring was truly such an angel. However, he can't be Aerion reborn, as we surly would have heard something about such assholery!!!



Again, thanks for the links.  I will definitely read the two on Westeros, but I will probably not be looking into the pod casts, as I just can't listen to hours and hours of chatting, unless myself and some cold beer is involved, (the reason I can't even put forth the effort for LmL's podcasts any more, either). After about 5 minutes of podcasting, my mind concentration level has left the building, just like Elvis!