Post by stdaga on Jul 29, 2018 18:38:33 GMT
I am going to try to move this reread forward. I know it's summer (for most of us) and people are busy, but I looked back to the previous chapter and realized it's been over five weeks since we started that thread, so it seems like time to open a new one.
Like many Dany chapters, I see a lot of symbolism, but I am going to try to stick to parentage and also try to keep things tight and concise, but as I tend to ramble on, I apologize in advance if I get too wordy.
Two gigantic bronze stallions are twice mentioned in the first two paragraphs of this chapter, so I take it that GRRM means for us to pay attention. Horses in general make me think of Lyanna (and Brandon), both Stark's are associated with horses and their riding ability. Not necessarily to stallions, but horses in general. This hint's (very thinly) at possible Stark parentage for Dany.
The fact that the horses are considered gates and that they are bronze hint's at the Red Keep to me, which has bronze gates. Bronze is an alloy that is made mostly of copper with approx 1/3 of the material's being tin, and it is a yellowish brown in color. Not as red as copper, but still reddish. It actually reminds me of a lighter color of bay or chestnut horse, which also reminds me of Lord Dustin's red stallion and Drogo's red stallion, neither is described with a mane color, but in body they are both considered reddish. Hint's at Targaryen blood here, perhaps, or linking Dany to the toj is also a possibility. (Also a possible link the House Braken and their red stallion? Or at least Bittersteel and the Golden Company?) The gates of the Dragon Pit in Kings Landing were also said to be bronze. Bronze is also a metal that is associated to the first men, so I think it's interesting that the Targaryen kings used this metal to guard both their fortified castle and their dragons.
Another thing that catches my attention is the "distant purple mountains beyond". So, the main mountain here is called the Mother of Mountains and lies near a body of water called the Womb of the World, which are both hints at either Dany's mother, or her ability to be a mother. The purple mountains tied to motherhood bring Ashara Dayne to mind. We know little of Rhaella's looks, so it's possible she also had purple eyes. I also think it's possible we might fight that Lyanna did, too, but the one female that is hinted at often in our story is Ashara Dayne with her "laughing purple eyes" and "haunting violet eyes".
Long shadow's also makes me think of the Kings of Winter, some of them with "long" Stark faces and all of them noted to be shadow's by most anyone who comments on the statues in the crypts.
"Broken thunderbolts" makes me think of the Storm God, which makes me think of Robert.
"Stone kings looked down on her from their thrones" makes me think of the Stark Kings and Lords in the Crypts of Winterfell.
"Lithe young maidens danced on marble plinths, draped only in flowers" makes me think of Ashara who is noted to be a dancing maiden in our story and Lyanna, who we are told at one time is fond of flowers and is draped in a garland of pale blue roses (I have always felt like that garland of roses from Ned's dream was more of a shawl or drapery than a crown, but that is my personal interpretation and might not be agreed upon by many others) as garland is also used to describe the rose crown that Rhaegar gave to Lyanna. Although I don't favor that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child, if they did, I think Dany is a good possibility, which would tie all of her Stark/winter imagery with her Targaryen/fire/dragon imagery.
"Black iron dragons with jewels for eyes" hints to me of Blackfyre background, as it was the Blackfyres which had the black dragon on red for a sigil. Still, Balerion was a Targaryen dragon noted to be black and fierce, and we will eventually see Dany bond with her own black dragon, who as red eyes, which could very much be considered jewel like. This description doesn't give us a color for those jeweled dragon eyes.
Rhaegar plays a huge role in Dany's chapters. He is mentioned in 8 of 10 of Dany's chapter's in the first book, but Robert is also mentioned often in Dany's chapters (6 of 10, I think). I understand that Robert the usurper is important to the Targaryen's and their fall from power, but so is Ned, and Robert is mentioned far more often than Ned.
"Robert should have been born Dothraki", reminds me of Robert the warrior, Robert who is laughing and enjoying his horse ride on the kingsroad, and it also reminds me how well Dany has also adapted to life with the Dothraki, much in the way that Robert might have. Robert is noted to be strong, brave and rash, and these are all things I associate with Dany. She is strong, in spirit, for certain. She stumbled when she first came to live with the Dothraki, but she adapted and flourished, she is brave I have no doubt, and Dany is a bit rash. Jumping into the fighting pit's of Meereen with Drogon is very rash, and brave and strong. Walking into Drogo's pyre might be considered rash, although she was not frightened at all.
It's interesting to me that Dany thinks of the bloodriders as being like Kingsguard, but then she is taught that a bloodrider is more than a guard. But the similiarities are not to be ignored. Dany thinking of how some Khal's share their wives with their bloodriders and how she would not like to be shared is intriguing. Could this indicate that perhaps a King and his kingsguard did share the queen, or even perhaps Rhaegar might have shared a women with his most devoted friends? I am not sure what this could mean. It seems like Aerys was insanely jealous of Rhaella's bed and had her guarded, but perhaps it hints that maybe a kingsguard was sharing the bed of the queen (we will see this is what happened with Jaime and Cersei under Robert's unsuspecting gaze). Or does it hint at Rhaegar, who could have had either or both Ashara and Lyanna as his lover/concubine, and perhaps neither of them wanted to be shared among Rhaegar's men, but shared they were. If this happened to either Ashara or Lyanna, would it have been enough of a reason for them to runaway? And if it did happen, could this just make parentage of some of our questionable children even more of a nightmare to try to figure out?
"Every khal had his bloodriders" hints to me of "every king has his kingsguard". And that can't be about Rhaegar, since he was never a king, but it could be about Aerys. But would Aerys ever have shared his wife? Doubtful. But he might have shared a mistress in the past. I am not sure what to make of this hinting of a king sharing his women with his sworn swords, but it's certainly put boldly in the text for us to ponder.
This is an interesting thought for Dany to have. Earlier in this chapter she recognized Viserys as her king, and she also recognizes that she belongs to Drogo for life now that they are wed, so the son that she thinks about sitting the Iron Throne cannot belong to her and Viserys together, or Viserys alone. It has to be her son! She somehow has completely bypassed Viserys on the throne. It doesn't necessarily have to do with ourparentage mystery, but it does hint at her already planning to take the Iron Throne for herself and her son, no one else!
I am not sure what this means, and I do think that GRRM pick's color's on purpose, that Dany chooses to dress Viserys in white linen, a bronze belt, and a cloak of green with a pale grey border. White makes me think of the the Kingsguard dressing in white. Bronze is a color of the First Men, and green with grey accents are about the farthest things from a Targaryen color scheme that she could get. Is she trying to distance Viserys from the Targaryen roots? Is this a hint to us about Viserys' true roots, which might not be as the child of Aerys and Rhaella? That green and grey cloak will later end up splattered in Viserys blood after Dany strikes him with the bronze belt. It's all important symbolism, I think, although I am not sure how to put it all together.
This passage also leads to the "wake the dragon" concept of angering Viserys, and perhaps all Targaryen's. Viserys was eight when his parents died, so perhaps this is a phrase he heard from either Aerys or Rhaella. We don't know much of Rhaella's personality, but several times in the text, Viserys is likened to acting like Aerys or "being his father's son", so to speak. We also will get another hint of Viserys' lilac eyes, which I do think is important to his parentage. I think eye color in this story is perhaps the most important trait that links a child to a parent, although I could be very wrong about that.
I find it interesting that Dany feels stronger and braver when she was close to the eggs. Up chapter, two of the three modifiers that Jorah uses to describe Robert are strong and brave. Once I was open to the connections between Robert and Dany, I literally see them all the time. Granted it might not be parentage, although I think it could be, but it could also be that Robert and Dany are the same type of people - conquerors!
Seeking comfort, Dany asks for one of her eggs, and Irri brings her the green and bronze egg. It is interesting to me that we get hints of red blood on Viserys' green cloak from a wound with a bronze belt, and Irri brings the egg that mirror's these very colors (minus the blood). Hhmmm!
When Viserys' blood spattered about, could some of it have fallen on the eggs? Is that the reason that the she seems to feel her child reaching toward this egg? Could that blood have awakened some bond between the egg and Dany's unborn child?
Also, I find it interesting that Dany refers to the "stone dragon" locked inside the egg, which certainly brings to mind Melisandre's talk of waking stone dragon's, which is sometimes associated with TPTWP prophecy, but also Azor Ahai. (I am not convinced these prophecies have anything to do with one another, although I think the more common interpretation is that they are the same prophecy, just told differently).
And Dany refers to her child as "the dragon" and "the true dragon". And of course a running theme in her story line is that Rhaegar was the last dragon. As we seem to know the fate of Dany's child, which is death, (if MMD is telling the truth and why should she, really?) then does Dany actually consume the spirit of her own unborn child so that she can become "the last dragon"? Or does Rhaego's spirit go into an egg, and if so, is it this green and bronze egg that will be named Rhaegal after Rhaegar, but is also so very similar to Rhaego!
This last little bit really has nothing to do with parentage (sorry!), but it's just to enticing to ignore!
Like many Dany chapters, I see a lot of symbolism, but I am going to try to stick to parentage and also try to keep things tight and concise, but as I tend to ramble on, I apologize in advance if I get too wordy.
The Horse Gate of Vaes Dothrak was made of two gigantic bronze stallions, rearing, their hooves meeting a hundred feet above the roadway to form a pointed arch.
Dany could not have said why the city needed a gate when it had no walls … and no buildings that she could see. Yet there it stood, immense and beautiful, the great horses framing the distant purple mountain beyond. The bronze stallions threw long shadows across the waving grasses as Khal Drogo led the khalasar under their hooves and down the godsway, his bloodriders beside him. AGOT-Daenerys IV
Dany could not have said why the city needed a gate when it had no walls … and no buildings that she could see. Yet there it stood, immense and beautiful, the great horses framing the distant purple mountain beyond. The bronze stallions threw long shadows across the waving grasses as Khal Drogo led the khalasar under their hooves and down the godsway, his bloodriders beside him. AGOT-Daenerys IV
Two gigantic bronze stallions are twice mentioned in the first two paragraphs of this chapter, so I take it that GRRM means for us to pay attention. Horses in general make me think of Lyanna (and Brandon), both Stark's are associated with horses and their riding ability. Not necessarily to stallions, but horses in general. This hint's (very thinly) at possible Stark parentage for Dany.
The fact that the horses are considered gates and that they are bronze hint's at the Red Keep to me, which has bronze gates. Bronze is an alloy that is made mostly of copper with approx 1/3 of the material's being tin, and it is a yellowish brown in color. Not as red as copper, but still reddish. It actually reminds me of a lighter color of bay or chestnut horse, which also reminds me of Lord Dustin's red stallion and Drogo's red stallion, neither is described with a mane color, but in body they are both considered reddish. Hint's at Targaryen blood here, perhaps, or linking Dany to the toj is also a possibility. (Also a possible link the House Braken and their red stallion? Or at least Bittersteel and the Golden Company?) The gates of the Dragon Pit in Kings Landing were also said to be bronze. Bronze is also a metal that is associated to the first men, so I think it's interesting that the Targaryen kings used this metal to guard both their fortified castle and their dragons.
Another thing that catches my attention is the "distant purple mountains beyond". So, the main mountain here is called the Mother of Mountains and lies near a body of water called the Womb of the World, which are both hints at either Dany's mother, or her ability to be a mother. The purple mountains tied to motherhood bring Ashara Dayne to mind. We know little of Rhaella's looks, so it's possible she also had purple eyes. I also think it's possible we might fight that Lyanna did, too, but the one female that is hinted at often in our story is Ashara Dayne with her "laughing purple eyes" and "haunting violet eyes".
Long shadow's also makes me think of the Kings of Winter, some of them with "long" Stark faces and all of them noted to be shadow's by most anyone who comments on the statues in the crypts.
Beyond the horse gate, plundered gods and stolen heroes loomed to either side of them. The forgotten deities of dead cities brandished their broken thunderbolts at the sky as Dany rode her silver past their feet. Stone kings looked down on her from their thrones, their faces chipped and stained, even their names lost in the mists of time. Lithe young maidens danced on marble plinths, draped only in flowers, or poured air from shattered jars. Monsters stood in the grass beside the road; black iron dragons with jewels for eyes, roaring griffins, manticores with their barbed tails poised to strike, and other beasts she could not name. Some of the statues were so lovely they took her breath away, others so misshapen and terrible that Dany could scarcely bear to look at them. Those, Ser Jorah said, had likely come from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai. AGOT-Daenerys IV
"Broken thunderbolts" makes me think of the Storm God, which makes me think of Robert.
"Stone kings looked down on her from their thrones" makes me think of the Stark Kings and Lords in the Crypts of Winterfell.
"Lithe young maidens danced on marble plinths, draped only in flowers" makes me think of Ashara who is noted to be a dancing maiden in our story and Lyanna, who we are told at one time is fond of flowers and is draped in a garland of pale blue roses (I have always felt like that garland of roses from Ned's dream was more of a shawl or drapery than a crown, but that is my personal interpretation and might not be agreed upon by many others) as garland is also used to describe the rose crown that Rhaegar gave to Lyanna. Although I don't favor that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child, if they did, I think Dany is a good possibility, which would tie all of her Stark/winter imagery with her Targaryen/fire/dragon imagery.
"Black iron dragons with jewels for eyes" hints to me of Blackfyre background, as it was the Blackfyres which had the black dragon on red for a sigil. Still, Balerion was a Targaryen dragon noted to be black and fierce, and we will eventually see Dany bond with her own black dragon, who as red eyes, which could very much be considered jewel like. This description doesn't give us a color for those jeweled dragon eyes.
Ser Jorah considered that for a moment. "Robert should have been born Dothraki," he said at last. "Your khal would tell you that only a coward hides behind stone walls instead of facing his enemy with a blade in hand. The Usurper would agree. He is a strong man, brave … and rash enough to meet a Dothraki horde in the open field. But the men around him, well, their pipers play a different tune. His brother Stannis, Lord Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark …" He spat of . AGOT-Daenerys IV
Rhaegar plays a huge role in Dany's chapters. He is mentioned in 8 of 10 of Dany's chapter's in the first book, but Robert is also mentioned often in Dany's chapters (6 of 10, I think). I understand that Robert the usurper is important to the Targaryen's and their fall from power, but so is Ned, and Robert is mentioned far more often than Ned.
"Robert should have been born Dothraki", reminds me of Robert the warrior, Robert who is laughing and enjoying his horse ride on the kingsroad, and it also reminds me how well Dany has also adapted to life with the Dothraki, much in the way that Robert might have. Robert is noted to be strong, brave and rash, and these are all things I associate with Dany. She is strong, in spirit, for certain. She stumbled when she first came to live with the Dothraki, but she adapted and flourished, she is brave I have no doubt, and Dany is a bit rash. Jumping into the fighting pit's of Meereen with Drogon is very rash, and brave and strong. Walking into Drogo's pyre might be considered rash, although she was not frightened at all.
Every khal had his bloodriders. At first Dany had thought of them as a kind of Dothraki Kingsguard, sworn to protect their lord, but it went further than that. Jhiqui had taught her that a bloodrider was more than a guard; they were the khal's brothers, his shadows, his fiercest friends. "Blood of my blood," Drogo called them, and so it was; they shared a single life. The ancient traditions of the horselords demanded that when the khal died, his bloodriders died with him, to ride at his side in the night lands. If the khal died at the hands of some enemy, they lived only long enough to avenge him, and then followed him joyfully into the grave. In some khalasars, Jhiqui said, the bloodriders shared the khal's wine, his tent, and even his wives, though never his horses. A man's mount was his own.
Daenerys was glad that Khal Drogo did not hold to those ancient ways. She should not have liked being shared. AGOT-Daenerys IV
Daenerys was glad that Khal Drogo did not hold to those ancient ways. She should not have liked being shared. AGOT-Daenerys IV
It's interesting to me that Dany thinks of the bloodriders as being like Kingsguard, but then she is taught that a bloodrider is more than a guard. But the similiarities are not to be ignored. Dany thinking of how some Khal's share their wives with their bloodriders and how she would not like to be shared is intriguing. Could this indicate that perhaps a King and his kingsguard did share the queen, or even perhaps Rhaegar might have shared a women with his most devoted friends? I am not sure what this could mean. It seems like Aerys was insanely jealous of Rhaella's bed and had her guarded, but perhaps it hints that maybe a kingsguard was sharing the bed of the queen (we will see this is what happened with Jaime and Cersei under Robert's unsuspecting gaze). Or does it hint at Rhaegar, who could have had either or both Ashara and Lyanna as his lover/concubine, and perhaps neither of them wanted to be shared among Rhaegar's men, but shared they were. If this happened to either Ashara or Lyanna, would it have been enough of a reason for them to runaway? And if it did happen, could this just make parentage of some of our questionable children even more of a nightmare to try to figure out?
"Every khal had his bloodriders" hints to me of "every king has his kingsguard". And that can't be about Rhaegar, since he was never a king, but it could be about Aerys. But would Aerys ever have shared his wife? Doubtful. But he might have shared a mistress in the past. I am not sure what to make of this hinting of a king sharing his women with his sworn swords, but it's certainly put boldly in the text for us to ponder.
When her son sat the Iron Throne, she would see that he had bloodriders of his own to protect him against treachery in his Kingsguard. AGOT-Daenerys IV
This is an interesting thought for Dany to have. Earlier in this chapter she recognized Viserys as her king, and she also recognizes that she belongs to Drogo for life now that they are wed, so the son that she thinks about sitting the Iron Throne cannot belong to her and Viserys together, or Viserys alone. It has to be her son! She somehow has completely bypassed Viserys on the throne. It doesn't necessarily have to do with ourparentage mystery, but it does hint at her already planning to take the Iron Throne for herself and her son, no one else!
She brought back a haunch of goat and a basket of fruits and vegetables. Jhiqui roasted the meat with sweetgrass and firepods, basting it with honey as it cooked, and there were melons and pomegranates and plums and some queer eastern fruit Dany did not know. While her handmaids prepared the meal, Dany laid out the clothing she'd had made to her brother's measure: a tunic and leggings of crisp white linen, leather sandals that laced up to the knee, a bronze medallion belt, a leather vest painted with fire-breathing dragons. The Dothraki would respect him more if he looked less a beggar, she hoped, and perhaps he would forgive her for shaming him that day in the grass. He was still her king, after all, and her brother. They were both blood of the dragon.
She was arranging the last of his gifts—a sandsilk cloak, green as grass, with a pale grey border that would bring out the silver in his hair—when Viserys arrived, dragging Doreah by the arm. Her eye was red where he'd hit her. "How dare you send this whore to give me commands," he said. He shoved the handmaid roughly to the carpet. AGOT-Daenerys IV
She was arranging the last of his gifts—a sandsilk cloak, green as grass, with a pale grey border that would bring out the silver in his hair—when Viserys arrived, dragging Doreah by the arm. Her eye was red where he'd hit her. "How dare you send this whore to give me commands," he said. He shoved the handmaid roughly to the carpet. AGOT-Daenerys IV
I am not sure what this means, and I do think that GRRM pick's color's on purpose, that Dany chooses to dress Viserys in white linen, a bronze belt, and a cloak of green with a pale grey border. White makes me think of the the Kingsguard dressing in white. Bronze is a color of the First Men, and green with grey accents are about the farthest things from a Targaryen color scheme that she could get. Is she trying to distance Viserys from the Targaryen roots? Is this a hint to us about Viserys' true roots, which might not be as the child of Aerys and Rhaella? That green and grey cloak will later end up splattered in Viserys blood after Dany strikes him with the bronze belt. It's all important symbolism, I think, although I am not sure how to put it all together.
This passage also leads to the "wake the dragon" concept of angering Viserys, and perhaps all Targaryen's. Viserys was eight when his parents died, so perhaps this is a phrase he heard from either Aerys or Rhaella. We don't know much of Rhaella's personality, but several times in the text, Viserys is likened to acting like Aerys or "being his father's son", so to speak. We also will get another hint of Viserys' lilac eyes, which I do think is important to his parentage. I think eye color in this story is perhaps the most important trait that links a child to a parent, although I could be very wrong about that.
"I'm not hungry," Dany said sadly. She was suddenly very tired. "Share the food among yourselves, and send some to Ser Jorah, if you would." After a moment she added, "Please, bring me one of the dragon's eggs."
Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.
She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. "You are the dragon," Dany whispered to him, "the true dragon. I know it. I know it." And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home. AGOT-Daenerys IV
Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.
She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. "You are the dragon," Dany whispered to him, "the true dragon. I know it. I know it." And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home. AGOT-Daenerys IV
I find it interesting that Dany feels stronger and braver when she was close to the eggs. Up chapter, two of the three modifiers that Jorah uses to describe Robert are strong and brave. Once I was open to the connections between Robert and Dany, I literally see them all the time. Granted it might not be parentage, although I think it could be, but it could also be that Robert and Dany are the same type of people - conquerors!
Seeking comfort, Dany asks for one of her eggs, and Irri brings her the green and bronze egg. It is interesting to me that we get hints of red blood on Viserys' green cloak from a wound with a bronze belt, and Irri brings the egg that mirror's these very colors (minus the blood). Hhmmm!
When Viserys' blood spattered about, could some of it have fallen on the eggs? Is that the reason that the she seems to feel her child reaching toward this egg? Could that blood have awakened some bond between the egg and Dany's unborn child?
Also, I find it interesting that Dany refers to the "stone dragon" locked inside the egg, which certainly brings to mind Melisandre's talk of waking stone dragon's, which is sometimes associated with TPTWP prophecy, but also Azor Ahai. (I am not convinced these prophecies have anything to do with one another, although I think the more common interpretation is that they are the same prophecy, just told differently).
And Dany refers to her child as "the dragon" and "the true dragon". And of course a running theme in her story line is that Rhaegar was the last dragon. As we seem to know the fate of Dany's child, which is death, (if MMD is telling the truth and why should she, really?) then does Dany actually consume the spirit of her own unborn child so that she can become "the last dragon"? Or does Rhaego's spirit go into an egg, and if so, is it this green and bronze egg that will be named Rhaegal after Rhaegar, but is also so very similar to Rhaego!
This last little bit really has nothing to do with parentage (sorry!), but it's just to enticing to ignore!