How far would they have gotten in 9 days, any idea? For instance, how far away is Craster?
I'm not exactly sure. I'm thinking that it took around two weeks for them to get to Craster's place with the large ranging, but I'm not positive if I'm remembering correctly or not. It's been a while since I read that part. Plus I would imagine that three men would travel faster than 200, especially when the 200 were going out of their way to stop at known wilding villages. Although, I would imagine that their pace and direction would be dictated by the band of wildings they were chasing.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all.
Agreed, but that's day. Darkness is a whole other matter, and this particular night bears an edge. I'm not set in stone, mind you, this is just my impression of it on this reading.
Maybe it's indicative of their frustration with their commander. Will has already found the wildlings, and returned. The vets thought they would be returning home finally, but Waymar wants to investigate?
I am wondering, however, does he truly not notice, or does he go out of his way to ignore his unease? Is he seeing it as a test of his ability to command? These men may have laughed at him before, but he would give them no further reason to do so. He would show them what bravery is. Or maybe he truly doesn't feel it? Could be a lack of experience? Could be influence of the wall. This is his first time leading a ranging. How many times has he been beyond the wall? Could he believe the fearful feelings were part of every ranging? Something that needed to be overcome? Will and Gared weren't acting as they should out of disrespect? They were trying to shame him?
Great stuff. This would certainly explain it. And maybe Waymar's even right about the feelings flowing his way, he just has the source wrong. Maybe he thought the animosity was coming from his own men, but it may actually have been coming from the Others.
Oh, I wouldn't deny that there is a certain edge to the night at hand. I just don't think that it appeared from nowhere. It's just been gradually building up throughout the ranging, the closer they came to what it is that was watching them. I'm certain that they were frustrated with Waymar, and that may have added to the unease, but it seems unlikely that it was the cause of concern. I'm thinking that they just had a more difficult time than usual handling their frustration. As you suggested, I could also see Waymar being easily confused about the source of the tension, possibly helping to lead to his overreaction in an attempt to prove himself. He might be highborn, even coming from a first men background, but he was just so inexperienced. Funny when you think about it. Aren't the Royce words "We Remember?"
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I don't want to cut conversation short, but I want to post the next couple of paragraphs while I have the chance.
Especially not a commander like this one. Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs . He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife. Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons . He wore black leather boots, black woolen pants, black moleskin gloves, and a fine supple coat of gleaming black ringmail over layers of black wool and boiled leather. Ser Waymar had been a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch for less than half a year, but no one could say he had not prepared for his vocation. At least insofar as his wardrobe was concerned.
His cloak was his crowning glory; sable, thick and black and soft as sin. “Bet he killed them all himself, he did,”Gared told the barracks over wine, “twisted their little heads off, our mighty warrior.”They had all shared the laugh. It is hard to take orders from a man you laughed at in your cups, Will reflected as he sat shivering atop his garron. Gared must have felt the same.
“Mormont said as we should track them, and we did,” Gared said. “They’re dead . They shan’t trouble us no more. There’s hard riding before us. I don’t like this weather. If it snows, we could be a fortnight getting back, and snow’s the best we can hope for. Ever seen an ice storm, my lord?” The lordling seemed not to hear him. He studied the deepening twilight in that half-bored, half-distracted way he had. Will had ridden with the knight long enough to understand that it was best not to interrupt him when he looked like that. “Tell me again what you saw, Will. All the details. Leave nothing out.”
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Especially not a commander like this one. Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs . He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife.
I've mentioned this 'afore in Heresy, and maybe at the old site, but it never inspired much discussion. Anyhoo, compare Waymar's appearance to Jon Snow's:
Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.
Now, I'm not going to suggest that Waymar fathered Jon on Lyanna when he was only a toddler, but it does seem as if he and Jon look strikingly similar. Waymar's father, Bronze Yohn, was at the Tourney of Harrenhal (unhorsed by Rhaegar), and Ned inexplicably trusted LF's gold loaks more than Bronze when pushing his Lord Protectorship.
His cloak was his crowning glory; sable, thick and black and soft as sin. “Bet he killed them all himself, he did,”Gared told the barracks over wine, “twisted their little heads off, our mighty warrior.”They had all shared the laugh. It is hard to take orders from a man you laughed at in your cups, Will reflected as he sat shivering atop his garron. Gared must have felt the same.
I've grown to love this paragraph. I'm not a fan of people who think themselves superior. I tend to laugh at such when in my cups. And I love Gared's joke about Waymar twisting the sable heads off personally. It all reminds me of some recent and much-appreciated ironies.
The lordling seemed not to hear him. He studied the deepening twilight in that half-bored, half-distracted way he had.
Uh'oh. Twilight's bad. The men are entering the Twilight, uhh, Zone (I see what you did there, GRRM).
We know what happens when the last glimmer of light leaves the twilight sky:
"Wolves are the least of our woes," said Coldhands. "We have to climb. It will be dark soon. You would do well to be inside before night comes. Your warmth will draw them." He glanced to the west, where the light of the setting sun could be seen dimly through the trees, like the glow of a distant fire.
[...] Bran blinked back a tear and felt it freeze upon his cheek. Coldhands took Hodor by the arm. "The light is fading. If they're not here now, they will be soon. Come."
Will had ridden with the knight long enough to understand that it was best not to interrupt him when he looked like that. “Tell me again what you saw, Will. All the details. Leave nothing out.”
Once again I'm reminded of Jon's eyes being observant ("there was little they did not see") and Waymar's keen attention to detail.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
That was not enough to save Will. He didn't listen to his men or the unnatural warnings. Still sounds like Jon.
Agreed.
And how about this: Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs.
Jon was a son with three brothers ahead of him in the line of succession, Ser Waymar was the youngest of three. Both joined the Watch because there was no lordship waiting for them.
Robb's death brings us additional parallels. First, it puts Jon in line behind two brothers, like Waymar.
Additionally, the manner of Robb's death is quite similar to Waymar's. A green commander, mocking voices, cold butchery, and execution followed by laughter. Robb's scout (Catelyn) even rose from the dead!
Jon's stabbing offers parallels as well, but the men that stuck Jon with their pointy ends had tears in their eyes, and Waymar Royce was clearly not the Lord Commander of the white brothers that emerged from the trees.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Re: Royce's grey eyes, aren't the Starks distant relatives with some house in the Vale? Ygritte has blue grey eyes, too, so maybe it's a characteristic of being descended from the first men. Royce is an ancient house, I know it's split into two branches now, but I remember the rune armor.
I don't think it's a coincidence we have the beginning of our series with a Royce character and the mention of the runic armor later.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Re: Royce's grey eyes, aren't the Starks distant relatives with some house in the Vale? Ygritte has blue grey eyes, too, so maybe it's a characteristic of being descended from the first men. Royce is an ancient house, I know it's split into two branches now, but I remember the rune armor.
I don't think it's a coincidence we have the beginning of our series with a Royce character and the mention of the runic armor later.
I haven't committed much memory to the Stark family tree, but there is cousin Sweet Robyn.
I'm thinking grey eyes are a FM phenotypical trait as well, but not the only one. The influx of Andal DNA has likely altered some characteristics (like Lann the Clever's descendants, mayhaps?), but that ever mysterious House Dayne seems seems to have always had (proto-Targaryen?) purple eyes.
Runes seem important, or at least I'd like them to be. We have the Thenns wearing similarly inscribed bronzework.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I haven't committed much memory to the Stark family tree, but there is cousin Sweet Robyn.
I'm thinking grey eyes are a FM phenotypical trait as well, but not the only one. The influx of Andal DNA has likely altered some characteristics (like Lann the Clever's descendants, mayhaps?), but that ever mysterious House Dayne seems seems to have always had (proto-Targaryen?) purple eyes.
Runes seem important, or at least I'd like them to be. We have the Thenns wearing similarly inscribed bronzework.
I just remember from Cat, when she was asking Robb to name as his heir some relatives from the Vale he never met vs. Jon.
i thought the purple eyes were a trait coming from Valyria. I think it's no accident the Daynes have Targ features, either, but I haven't figured out why yet.
ETA: Styr the Magnar also has grey eyes. I never noticed. I know Bolton has pale eyes, but I'd almost like to lump him in the grey category. If I had thought of this 5 months ago, I would've started keeping a list of eye colors, since it seems to be a reoccurring theme in the series. Someone probably has, somewhere, I might google it. Also, Thenn has no ears like Gared, but I think it's just a coincidence in that case.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
i thought the purple eyes were a trait coming from Valyria. I think it's no accident the Daynes have Targ features, either, but I haven't figured out why yet.
Daynes predate the rise of Valyria by thousands of years, so while there may be some common ancestry, I'm thinking the traits we've come to know as Targ/Valyrian, are really Dayne'ish.
As to the why, hard to say, as always. But I'm thinking the SotM is pivotal in all of this, and I'm wondering if tptwp is really just a Dayne/SotM artifact.
ETA: Styr the Magnar also has grey eyes. I never noticed. I know Bolton has pale eyes, but I'd almost like to lump him in the grey category. If I had thought of this 5 months ago, I would've started keeping a list of eye colors, since it seems to be a reoccurring theme in the series. Someone probably has, somewhere, I might google it. Also, Thenn has no ears like Gared, but I think it's just a coincidence in that case.
Yes, Styr, a grey eyed god among his Thenns. Drogo was the same, imo. Jon's eyes, so dark they look black, remind me of bronze-clad Drogo's as well. It's an old crackpot of mine that the Dothraki are First Men who could not, or would not, cross the broken Arm of Dorne.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
So the Lords Declarant are made up of mostly Stark relatives and their allies, and it also gives an alternate explanation for why Lady Anya attended the marriage of Lord Lyonel Corbray that Petyr most likely is overlooking, assuming that his buying up the debts of House Waynwood has more sway than it might actually have. It also explains why Ser Symond would also be in attendance of Lord Lyonel's wedding. They might have something in the works for claiming Winterfell through their Stark lineage, or have deduced that Alayne is actually Sansa and be plotting accordingly through family ties to make LF think he's bought them when in reality they're simply trying to lull him into a trap and unite around Sansa.
I personally like the idea that Littlefinger is so concerned about debts and things that he forgets to look at family lineage (which is important to the lords) that he ignores one common bind that unites these houses.
This is all quite intriguing. I must ask if you have an opinion why... (if such relations were truly allies of House Stark, and not simply coveting WF) ...why do you suppose Ned would look past Bronze Yohn Royce, and instead entrust his fate to LF's gold cloaks, when push came to shove? Should we just chalk this up to GRRM ex machina?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
What do you mean? That they are older than Valaryians themselves? I really don't know the difference between first men and andals, I just kind of picture andals being like the Gauls for some reason. Are Andals blonde? I thought Valyria was just as old on their continent, just didn't really invade W until later.
Andals aren't necessarily blonde (i.e. Robert Baratheon), just spitballing there... But yes, House Dayne goes back to days long before Valyria ever existed as a unique civilization. The Peninsula and Fourteen Flames had always been around, I assume, but the sheepherders there had not yet created the Freehold.
Regarding the antiquity of House Dayne, in the words of Ser Gerold Dayne (Darkstar):
As she led the princess to the fire, Arianne found Ser Gerold behind her. "My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days," he complained. "Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?"
The timeline (though debatable and full of holes) places the rise of Valyria after the Andal Invasion, so more recently than 6,000 years BC.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface.
Even this part. This is where I may possibly be reading too much into things though, admittedly... You be the judge, LOL.
First, in this passage, I think the Wall = the sword in the darkness (Dawn).
Second, the dust and dirt pocked surface, I see as representing a sheath. Or, that Dawn is currently sheathed/hidden from view, and that this sheath is the color of dirty snow. Dirty snow is grey, like a Stark direwolf, and Jon is a Stark bastard (the hidden SotM).
Bronze Yohn Royce is not the same branch of the Royce family tree as the Royces I'm talking about.
Bronze Yohn Royce is the Lord of the Royces of Runestone.
Benedict Royce was a younger son of the Lord of the Royces of the Gates of the Moon--so Benedict is kin to Myranda, Nestor, and Andar Royce. The same Myranda that is competing with Sansa for Harry the Heir's affections. Myranda, Nestor, and Andar don't have the Stark blood in them themselves, but their great-uncle or some similar such relationship married Jocelyn Stark, who had three daughters, who married into three houses--all of which just so happen to be Lords Declarant, and who all attend the marriage of one of their own? I smell something... wolfy about this.
I also think this probably played a part in why Ned was fostered in the Vale--to remind the descendants of Jocelyn of their common family ties to Winterfell.
Cool stuff. I suppose I shouldn't place all Royces under the same umbrella.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
How about a thread for family trees or Royce or daggers or Lyanna's blue roses or christmas gifts or whatever else pops up. Or just another AGOT thread for the other chapters in AGOT.
I'm off to class but feel free to delete any offending posts.
Sorry, it all seemed in the vein of discussion to me...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."