Will had been a hunter before he joined the Night’s Watch. Well, a poacher in truth. Mallister freeriders had caught him red-handed in the Mallisters’ own woods, skinning one of the Mallisters’ own bucks, and it had been a choice of putting on the black or losing a hand. No one could move through the woods as silent as Will, and it had not taken the black brothers long to discover his talent.
It seems there is someone who can move through the woods quieter than Will, and I bet that is part of his uneasiness. Knowing something is out there; something more sneaky than the poacher himself.
So, the implication is that he is a poacher here too, no?
This is land they can move through, but it isn't really theirs. Borrowed land. Which is making my brain free-associate to Brandon's gift. Land given to the Wall to sustain itself. Yes, south of the Wall would probably yield more food than north of the Wall. But seems also to underscore that the land north of the Wall is NOT for the Watch to use. The Watch are poachers on the land north of the Wall.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
The lordling seemed not to hear him. He studied the deepening twilight in that half-bored, half-distracted way he had.
Uh'oh. Twilight's bad. The men are entering the Twilight, uhh, Zone (I see what you did there, GRRM).
We know what happens when the last glimmer of light leaves the twilight sky:
"Wolves are the least of our woes," said Coldhands. "We have to climb. It will be dark soon. You would do well to be inside before night comes. Your warmth will draw them." He glanced to the west, where the light of the setting sun could be seen dimly through the trees, like the glow of a distant fire.
[...] Bran blinked back a tear and felt it freeze upon his cheek. Coldhands took Hodor by the arm. "The light is fading. If they're not here now, they will be soon. Come."
Lots of talk debating if the cold brings the Others or if the Others bring the cold.
But seems clear that the Others are also tied to twilight. Not only is that when they show up, but their armor--its shifting appearance. Their swords--too thin on the side, yet also substantial enough to attack. They are substantial enough to melt when stabbed (vs. wisps of smoke or something) but they don't break the crust of snow they walk on.
They are as in-between as twilight. Between life and death (and yes, I do think they are transformed Craster babies somehow--but that transition would be consistent with their being in-betweeners). Cold eyes of death yet another form of life. So--twilight beings. Another tie in with the fairies (which means wolfmaid7 probably beat me to this).
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
How about a thread for family trees or Royce or daggers or Lyanna's blue roses or christmas gifts or whatever else pops up. Or just another AGOT thread for the other chapters in AGOT.
Yes--please do. I don't mind the derail per se. But would be good to not have to go back and forth in reading this (since of course all of these threads exist to serve my needs. Do we have an "entitled" emoji? Would it be too politically charged to suggest it might look like Trump?)
And @mitotia tlahuancaxitl--can I ask--why all the "well!"?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
That was not enough to save Will. He didn't listen to his men or the unnatural warnings. Still sounds like Jon.
Agreed.
And how about this: Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs.
Jon was a son with three brothers ahead of him in the line of succession, Ser Waymar was the youngest of three. Both joined the Watch because there was no lordship waiting for them.
Robb's death brings us additional parallels. First, it puts Jon in line behind two brothers, like Waymar.
Additionally, the manner of Robb's death is quite similar to Waymar's. A green commander, mocking voices, cold butchery, and execution followed by laughter. Robb's scout (Catelyn) even rose from the dead!
Jon's stabbing offers parallels as well, but the men that stuck Jon with their pointy ends had tears in their eyes, and Waymar Royce was clearly not the Lord Commander of the white brothers that emerged from the trees.
When I was posting the quotes last night, I had the same feeling. There are definitely parallels to be seen between Waymar and Jon. First their descriptions are eerily similar. Second, as you pointed out, they both appear to be quite observant. I think Waymar is exactly what Jon would have been if he had not taken the advice of both Tyrion and Donal Noye to heart. Waymar might have been quite a bit more capable than we are led to believe. However, he never learned to see the men of the NW as his brothers or to treat them as equals. I think that part of Jon's problems came from being unable to incorporate this advice into his new role of Lord Commander.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I haven't committed much memory to the Stark family tree, but there is cousin Sweet Robyn.
I'm thinking grey eyes are a FM phenotypical trait as well, but not the only one. The influx of Andal DNA has likely altered some characteristics (like Lann the Clever's descendants, mayhaps?), but that ever mysterious House Dayne seems seems to have always had (proto-Targaryen?) purple eyes.
Runes seem important, or at least I'd like them to be. We have the Thenns wearing similarly inscribed bronzework.
I just remember from Cat, when she was asking Robb to name as his heir some relatives from the Vale he never met vs. Jon.
i thought the purple eyes were a trait coming from Valyria. I think it's no accident the Daynes have Targ features, either, but I haven't figured out why yet.
ETA: Styr the Magnar also has grey eyes. I never noticed. I know Bolton has pale eyes, but I'd almost like to lump him in the grey category. If I had thought of this 5 months ago, I would've started keeping a list of eye colors, since it seems to be a reoccurring theme in the series. Someone probably has, somewhere, I might google it. Also, Thenn has no ears like Gared, but I think it's just a coincidence in that case.
Sorry for the OT, but after reading through some of LmL's threads, I tend to think that the Daynes get their features from a proto-Valyrian civilization, possibly the GEotD.
ETA: I'm not sure if I know enough to start a thread on this or not, but it does seem like it might be interesting to discuss?
Last Edit: Aug 20, 2015 6:26:19 GMT by Lady Dyanna
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Sorry for the OT, but after reading through some of LmL's threads, I tend to think that the Daynes get their features from a proto-Valyrian civilization, possibly the GEotD.
Just curious...how long does it take you to read one of his essays? There are too many words for me. He needs a cliff notes version. What is GEotD?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Will had been a hunter before he joined the Night’s Watch. Well, a poacher in truth. Mallister freeriders had caught him red-handed in the Mallisters’ own woods, skinning one of the Mallisters’ own bucks, and it had been a choice of putting on the black or losing a hand. No one could move through the woods as silent as Will, and it had not taken the black brothers long to discover his talent.
It seems there is someone who can move through the woods quieter than Will, and I bet that is part of his uneasiness. Knowing something is out there; something more sneaky than the poacher himself.
So, the implication is that he is a poacher here too, no?
This is land they can move through, but it isn't really theirs. Borrowed land. Which is making my brain free-associate to Brandon's gift. Land given to the Wall to sustain itself. Yes, south of the Wall would probably yield more food than north of the Wall. But seems also to underscore that the land north of the Wall is NOT for the Watch to use. The Watch are poachers on the land north of the Wall.
Interesting thought. I wonder though, what about the wildings? Is it their land, or would they be "poaching" as well?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
The lordling seemed not to hear him. He studied the deepening twilight in that half-bored, half-distracted way he had.
Uh'oh. Twilight's bad. The men are entering the Twilight, uhh, Zone (I see what you did there, GRRM).
We know what happens when the last glimmer of light leaves the twilight sky:
"Wolves are the least of our woes," said Coldhands. "We have to climb. It will be dark soon. You would do well to be inside before night comes. Your warmth will draw them." He glanced to the west, where the light of the setting sun could be seen dimly through the trees, like the glow of a distant fire.
[...] Bran blinked back a tear and felt it freeze upon his cheek. Coldhands took Hodor by the arm. "The light is fading. If they're not here now, they will be soon. Come."
Lots of talk debating if the cold brings the Others or if the Others bring the cold.
But seems clear that the Others are also tied to twilight. Not only is that when they show up, but their armor--its shifting appearance. Their swords--too thin on the side, yet also substantial enough to attack. They are substantial enough to melt when stabbed (vs. wisps of smoke or something) but they don't break the crust of snow they walk on.
They are as in-between as twilight. Between life and death (and yes, I do think they are transformed Craster babies somehow--but that transition would be consistent with their being in-betweeners). Cold eyes of death yet another form of life. So--twilight beings. Another tie in with the fairies (which means wolfmaid7 probably beat me to this).
Great comparison. I mostly agree, but wonder if instead of just a "changeling," it might be more similar to a lifelike embodiment of the dead, or at least their spirit?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I'm back from class and looking over the last few pages. It really wasn't a derail. The whole point in these forensic rereads is to compare the material with what we know from canon and offer interpretations. Otherwise, all we're doing is creating an illegal e-book.
ETA: I'm not sure if I know enough to start a thread on this or not, but it does seem like it might be interesting to discuss?
It is. And this is precisely why new threads are not required. It's all in line with the discussion of this chapter. I think maybe we misunderstood Flagons? Or he misunderstood the convo? I'll PM him...
When I was posting the quotes last night, I had the same feeling. There are definitely parallels to be seen between Waymar and Jon. First their descriptions are eerily similar. Second, as you pointed out, they both appear to be quite observant. I think Waymar is exactly what Jon would have been if he had not taken the advice of both Tyrion and Donal Noye to heart. Waymar might have been quite a bit more capable than we are led to believe. However, he never learned to see the men of the NW as his brothers or to treat them as equals. I think that part of Jon's problems came from being unable to incorporate this advice into his new role of Lord Commander.
I 100% agree. As Will (and later Catelyn) observed, it is hard to take orders from a man you laughed at in your cups. Waymar never gave respect, or earned any.
An important lesson.
But yes, I totally agree Jon was not going to learn it without Tyrion and Donal... particularly Donal, in terms of treating his "brothers" like brothers.
It was not a derail yet, but it was beginning to head that way with talk of things not related to the epilogue. I was not asking anyone to delete their posts or even move them; only to start a thread (or post in another thread in use) to focus on other topics from other parts of the Song.
Anyway, I don't want to drag the thread down with boring blah blah blah so...
SlyWren - Waymar, Will, and Gared are hunting wildlings nine days from the Wall on the north side. Possibly on the last day of their ranging/mission they had entered the danger zone but they ignored the warnings just as the wildling band did. And they got dead.
Good stuff Flagons. We're not trying to micromanage threads, folks. New threads and theories will form on their own. Feel free to compare the chapter with other chapters and analyze them with the benefit of the canon as a whole. Personally, I'd even appreciate esoteric comparisons to Martin's other works, other non-Martin fantasy & lit, and mythology, like we do in Heresy (as long as it isn't Joseph Conrad LOL).
To the latter, Flagons, are you suggesting the camp location itself is the reason for the Other attack?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I am suggesting that as a possibility. That last day is when things got spooky and Will found the wildlings dead. Maybe they entered the Other's Keep.
I was driving home from class this evening and listened to the prologue again...
Forgive me for skipping ahead a few paragraphs, need to get a few thoughts out before I fall asleep and forget them.
Isn't it strange that Will was not attacked when he first found the "dead" wildling raiders? He stayed there a while before returning to Waymar and Gared. Yet, was not confronted.
Then, within mere minutes of returning to the place, before Will can even get all the way up the tree, Will sees something, and freezes.
I also noticed the "partially frozen river" adjacent to the wildling camp... and wanted to mention that sounded out of place considering the Wall has been weeping, and since they've only had a few light snows. I'm thinking that river is thawing out from the attack that killed the wildlings.
Until the morrow folks!
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Especially when they made it an issue to point out the Wall was weeping and why- nice catch, I never noticed. Samwell did though, he asked whether the cold brings the wights or the wights bring the cold. I wonder why they never travelled down for previous winters.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Samwell did though, he asked whether the cold brings the wights or the wights bring the cold.
I kind of think we should take a long hard look at all quotes from rotund speakers. I have a feeling they are in-text SSMs.
I'm away from the computer, again, so I can't pull the exact quote, but Will mentions "the cold that came with them" rather than "the cold that they brought" or "the cold that brought them". Not sure what to make of that, but I thought it was interesting word choice.
I wonder why they never travelled down for previous winters.
At this point, it is summer, and yet they've come. Who knows how many rangers have been lost to them. Ned mentions to Cat in the next chapter that Benjen has said they have been losing rangers to what he assumes is Mance Rayder. I would agree that the King beyond the Wall is ultimately responsible, I just don't think Mance was ever that King.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."