Post by stdaga on Aug 27, 2018 18:38:02 GMT
I am not sure if there are parentage hints in this chapter or not, but there are some connections that I see in the text. I will try to keep this as short, and tinfoil-free as I possibly can. But, of course, I like tinfoil and I veer toward wordiness! 
We get this description of Robert Arryn:
and a little later in the chapter we get this:
So, Robert Arryn has "rhuemy" eyes, with rheumy defined as a watery or thin discharge from the eyes or nose. Lysa has watery eyes, which Tyrion notes in this chapter and Cat notes about Lysa in Catelyn VI. I am not sure if this is a genetic hint to us or if it could be related to the dreamwine that it is speculated that Lysa drinks and that Sweetrobin would get via breastmilk, if indeed the dreamwine compound is even excreted in breastmilk. And this idea about Lysa and dreamwine is purely based on theories that I have read, and there is no textual information that ever links Lysa to dreamwine or milk-of-the-poppy that I am aware of. If someone can find this information, I would love to hear about it.
So, if it's not the dreamwine causing this wetness of the eyes, what is the cause. Perhaps it's allergies, and they just need a dose of Claritin? But perhaps it is something else. I don't know what it could be, but on a search of both watery eyes and rhuemy eyes in the text, I found several interesting connections.
Walder Frey is noted to have watery eyes, and so do several of his direct descendants such as Stevron Frey, Cleos Frey, Fat Walda Frey, and Aenys Frey. I can't imagine what connection there could be genetically in between Lysa and Walder Frey, but the description is interesting. It also might mean nothing and it's just a vague description the GRRM is using.
Two other people who have been noted to have watery eyes in the text are the Weeper, the wildling raider known for taking the eyes of his victims, and The Sparr, the old Lord of House Sparr from the Iron Islands.
Rheumy eyes show up a couple of times in the text, besides Sweetrobin. Pycelle's eyes are described as rheumy, as are the Weeper's eyes. A random bricklayer in Meereen and a unnamed Targaryan king who ruled in Dagon Greyjoy's day also have "rheumy" eyes.
I am not sure if GRRM intends there to be a difference in the text between watery and rheumy eyes, or if they are meant to indicate the same thing in these people. It might all mean nothing at all, but while doing this little search, I had a thought about The Weeper. According to the appendices in all the novels except Game, Walder Frey's son Aenys Frey has a son named Aegon, whom is referred to as Aegon Bloodborn, who is noted to be an outlaw. Is it possible that The Weeper of the watery eyes is Aegon Bloodborn, son of Aenys of the watery eyes who is son of Walder of the watery eyes???
Prior to this thought, my other guess on Aegon Bloodborn's identity is the Mad Huntsman, mostly because of his weak chin, which is another trait of the Frey's.
Anyone have any thoughts on these watery eyed people and possible genetic connections.
***
Another description always catches my attention when looking at the vale and that is Lyn Corbray, and we get a couple nods to Lyn in this chapter.
Slender is an interesting description. In later chapters and books, we will get the description of Lyn being "stone-faced", handsome and brown haired. I know there has been plenty of discussion on this over the years, but Jon Snow and Waymar Royce are also described as slender, having either dark or brown hair. Jon and Lyn are noted to be good swordsman, and I think that Waymar probably was as well. I know there has been speculation that this could be a look that might connect these three men genetically, perhaps as First Men descendants, or perhaps as a more recent genetic link. We will later find out that Lyn Corbray wields a family Valyrian steel sword, Lady Forlorn, which he earned in battle when he saved his father's life and then was gifted the family sword by his father, even though Lyn is not his father's heir.
This tracks back to Jon Snow to me, who tells us this:
Jon's daydreams are very similar to Lyn Corbray's reality. Of course, Jon is of baseborn birth while Lyn is trueborn, or so it seems, but the idea of earning the family blade also hint's back at the concept of Dawn and the Dayne family. Another difference might be that Jon seems to feel like he would have stolen his brother's birthright of Ice, but Lyn Corbray does not seem at all bothered to have stolen his brother's right to wield Lady Forlorn. If Jon is due to wield Dawn and SAD is his father, then there seems to be no brothers birthright to steal, so I am conflicted on this connection to Jon and Dawn.
But it made me question Jon's story. Perhaps Jon isn't meant to rule Winterfell (as much as that gives me warm and fuzzy thoughts) but that he might have always been meant to wield his father's sword. In this case, that hints to me of Ned and Ice, or SAD and Dawn!
This in another look at Lyn Corbray, who does carry a few traits that remind me of Jon, and it's in relation to a sure sword, which seems to perhaps be an important role for Jon Snow to play in this story.
Funny how I can manage to bring Jon into a chapter that he doesn't get mentioned in even one time!
***
And Tyrion has some interesting concepts in this story, and I am not sure if it hints to his possible Targaryen parentage, or if it just hints at Tyrion as a possible dragon rider some day.
In Tyrion II, he tells Jon (and us) of his dreams of dragons and flying, or at he says "I used to dream of having a dragon of my own" and how "even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back", which seem to indicate riding a flying dragon. We do get imagery early and often in the text about Tyrion and dragons and riding dragons and flying. The man even can build a special saddle for himself and Bran that applies to horses. Why not a special saddle for a dragon?
So this chapter has several nods to Tyrion flying, and one even to him having wings, so I find it interesting that Tyrion isn't comfortable in the sky cell (I would not be either but I am scared to death of heights and not meant to ride a dragon, either) but can a person who is so alarmed by heights and falling to his death end up being a dragon rider? Is it possible this is a fear that Tyrion would need to overcome? I suppose riding a dragon is quite a bit different than falling out of a sky cell or a moon door, but I do see it as a bit of a contradiction.
Another thing that hints at Tyrion and the sky is the words written on the wall of the sky cell, perhaps even written in blood, "the blue is calling" and to which Tyrion will even later think that the sky cell could make him a bit mad and "a few more nights of cold and hunger, and the blue would start calling to him too".
So, I am not sure it hints at Targaryen parentage, but Tyrion does have a strong element in this chapter that hints at a future of either flying or falling in his future.
***
And because I can't stick purely to parentage, here are two thoughts I had while reading this chapter:
Leg of lamb almost always makes me think of the Red Wedding, as a leg of lamb in the hands of Wendel Manderly is noted 3 times in that chapter, and a leg of lamb is noted in Dany's House of the Undying dream in what seems to be a vision of the red wedding. Logically, I can't connect Tyrion to planning the Red Wedding, but this hint of leg of lamb in his story line does draw my attention.
The other thing that caught my attention but might not matter at all is this:
In Cat's first POV in the Eyrie, we see Sweetrobin upset and Lysa breastfeeding him as a form of comfort, and she is quite angry at Cat for upsetting him. In later books, we will see when Sweetrobin get's upset, he is given dreamwine. But in this case, he is noted to be "twitching" and Lysa remains calm and hugs the boy, and we hear no more of his possible seizure-like behavior. Does it just stop? Can Lysa sense the difference between a seizure and just "throwing a fit" of poor behavior? Or does she dare not breastfeed the child so publicly in the High Hall? And does the breast milk or dreamwine even make a difference to Sweetrobin's behavior? This little event seeming to stop on it's own just struck me as unexpected.
We get this description of Robert Arryn:
The wretched boy had started it, looking down on him from a throne of carved weirwood beneath the moon-and-falcon banners of House Arryn. Tyrion Lannister had been looked down on all his life, but seldom by rheumy-eyed six-year-olds who needed to stuff fat cushions under their cheeks to lift them to the height of a man. "Is he the bad man?" the boy had asked, clutching his doll. AGOT-Tyrion V
and a little later in the chapter we get this:
Lysa Arryn's watery blue eyes looked uncertain. He had caught her off balance. "You have that right, to be sure." AGOT-Tyrion V
So, if it's not the dreamwine causing this wetness of the eyes, what is the cause. Perhaps it's allergies, and they just need a dose of Claritin? But perhaps it is something else. I don't know what it could be, but on a search of both watery eyes and rhuemy eyes in the text, I found several interesting connections.
Walder Frey is noted to have watery eyes, and so do several of his direct descendants such as Stevron Frey, Cleos Frey, Fat Walda Frey, and Aenys Frey. I can't imagine what connection there could be genetically in between Lysa and Walder Frey, but the description is interesting. It also might mean nothing and it's just a vague description the GRRM is using.
Two other people who have been noted to have watery eyes in the text are the Weeper, the wildling raider known for taking the eyes of his victims, and The Sparr, the old Lord of House Sparr from the Iron Islands.
Rheumy eyes show up a couple of times in the text, besides Sweetrobin. Pycelle's eyes are described as rheumy, as are the Weeper's eyes. A random bricklayer in Meereen and a unnamed Targaryan king who ruled in Dagon Greyjoy's day also have "rheumy" eyes.
I am not sure if GRRM intends there to be a difference in the text between watery and rheumy eyes, or if they are meant to indicate the same thing in these people. It might all mean nothing at all, but while doing this little search, I had a thought about The Weeper. According to the appendices in all the novels except Game, Walder Frey's son Aenys Frey has a son named Aegon, whom is referred to as Aegon Bloodborn, who is noted to be an outlaw. Is it possible that The Weeper of the watery eyes is Aegon Bloodborn, son of Aenys of the watery eyes who is son of Walder of the watery eyes???
Prior to this thought, my other guess on Aegon Bloodborn's identity is the Mad Huntsman, mostly because of his weak chin, which is another trait of the Frey's.
Anyone have any thoughts on these watery eyed people and possible genetic connections.
***
Another description always catches my attention when looking at the vale and that is Lyn Corbray, and we get a couple nods to Lyn in this chapter.
Tyrion noted Ser Lyn Corbray, slender as a sword. AGOT-Tyrion V
This tracks back to Jon Snow to me, who tells us this:
When Jon had been Bran's age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father's life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand. Even then he had known it was only a child's folly; no bastard could ever hope to wield a father's sword. Even the memory shamed him. What kind of man stole his own brother's birthright? AGOT-Jon VIII
Jon's daydreams are very similar to Lyn Corbray's reality. Of course, Jon is of baseborn birth while Lyn is trueborn, or so it seems, but the idea of earning the family blade also hint's back at the concept of Dawn and the Dayne family. Another difference might be that Jon seems to feel like he would have stolen his brother's birthright of Ice, but Lyn Corbray does not seem at all bothered to have stolen his brother's right to wield Lady Forlorn. If Jon is due to wield Dawn and SAD is his father, then there seems to be no brothers birthright to steal, so I am conflicted on this connection to Jon and Dawn.
But it made me question Jon's story. Perhaps Jon isn't meant to rule Winterfell (as much as that gives me warm and fuzzy thoughts) but that he might have always been meant to wield his father's sword. In this case, that hints to me of Ned and Ice, or SAD and Dawn!
"The gods favor the man with the just cause," said Ser Lyn Corbray, "yet often that turns out to be the man with the surest sword. We all know who that is." He smiled modestly. AGOT-Tyrion V
This in another look at Lyn Corbray, who does carry a few traits that remind me of Jon, and it's in relation to a sure sword, which seems to perhaps be an important role for Jon Snow to play in this story.
Funny how I can manage to bring Jon into a chapter that he doesn't get mentioned in even one time!
***
And Tyrion has some interesting concepts in this story, and I am not sure if it hints to his possible Targaryen parentage, or if it just hints at Tyrion as a possible dragon rider some day.
"You fly," Mord had promised him, when he'd shoved him into the cell. "Twenty day, thirty, fifty maybe. Then you fly." AGOT-Tyrion V
"Can you fly, my lord of Lannister?" Lady Lysa asked. "Does a dwarf have wings? If not, you would be wiser to swallow the next threat that comes to mind." AGOT-Tyrion V
Young Robert pointed down, his hand trembling. "You're a liar. Mother, I want to see him fly." Two guardsmen in sky-blue cloaks seized Tyrion by the arms, lifting him off his floor. AGOT-Tyrion V
Her sister ignored her. "You want a trial, my lord of Lannister. Very well, a trial you shall have. My son will listen to whatever you care to say, and you shall hear his judgment. Then you may leave … by one door or the other."
She looked so pleased with herself, Tyrion thought, and small wonder. How could a trial threaten her, when her weakling son was the lord judge? Tyrion glanced at her Moon Door. Mother, I want to see him fly! the boy had said. How many men had the snot-nosed little wretch sent through that door already? AGOT-Tyrion V
She looked so pleased with herself, Tyrion thought, and small wonder. How could a trial threaten her, when her weakling son was the lord judge? Tyrion glanced at her Moon Door. Mother, I want to see him fly! the boy had said. How many men had the snot-nosed little wretch sent through that door already? AGOT-Tyrion V
In Tyrion II, he tells Jon (and us) of his dreams of dragons and flying, or at he says "I used to dream of having a dragon of my own" and how "even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back", which seem to indicate riding a flying dragon. We do get imagery early and often in the text about Tyrion and dragons and riding dragons and flying. The man even can build a special saddle for himself and Bran that applies to horses. Why not a special saddle for a dragon?
So this chapter has several nods to Tyrion flying, and one even to him having wings, so I find it interesting that Tyrion isn't comfortable in the sky cell (I would not be either but I am scared to death of heights and not meant to ride a dragon, either) but can a person who is so alarmed by heights and falling to his death end up being a dragon rider? Is it possible this is a fear that Tyrion would need to overcome? I suppose riding a dragon is quite a bit different than falling out of a sky cell or a moon door, but I do see it as a bit of a contradiction.
Another thing that hints at Tyrion and the sky is the words written on the wall of the sky cell, perhaps even written in blood, "the blue is calling" and to which Tyrion will even later think that the sky cell could make him a bit mad and "a few more nights of cold and hunger, and the blue would start calling to him too".
So, I am not sure it hints at Targaryen parentage, but Tyrion does have a strong element in this chapter that hints at a future of either flying or falling in his future.
***
And because I can't stick purely to parentage, here are two thoughts I had while reading this chapter:
"You want eat?" Mord asked, glowering. He had a plate of boiled beans in one thick, stub-fingered hand.
Tyrion Lannister was starved, but he refused to let this brute see him cringe. "A leg of lamb would be pleasant," he said, from the heap of soiled straw in the corner of his cell. AGOT-Tyrion V
Tyrion Lannister was starved, but he refused to let this brute see him cringe. "A leg of lamb would be pleasant," he said, from the heap of soiled straw in the corner of his cell. AGOT-Tyrion V
Leg of lamb almost always makes me think of the Red Wedding, as a leg of lamb in the hands of Wendel Manderly is noted 3 times in that chapter, and a leg of lamb is noted in Dany's House of the Undying dream in what seems to be a vision of the red wedding. Logically, I can't connect Tyrion to planning the Red Wedding, but this hint of leg of lamb in his story line does draw my attention.
The other thing that caught my attention but might not matter at all is this:
"I made no threats," Tyrion said. "That was a promise."
Little Lord Robert hopped to his feet at that, so upset he dropped his doll. "You can't hurt us," he screamed. "No one can hurt us here. Tell him, Mother, tell him he can't hurt us here." The boy began to twitch.
"The Eyrie is impregnable," Lysa Arryn declared calmly. She drew her son close, holding him safe in the circle of her plump white arms. "The Imp is trying to frighten us, sweet baby. The Lannisters are all liars. No one will hurt my sweet boy." AGOT-Tyrion V
Little Lord Robert hopped to his feet at that, so upset he dropped his doll. "You can't hurt us," he screamed. "No one can hurt us here. Tell him, Mother, tell him he can't hurt us here." The boy began to twitch.
"The Eyrie is impregnable," Lysa Arryn declared calmly. She drew her son close, holding him safe in the circle of her plump white arms. "The Imp is trying to frighten us, sweet baby. The Lannisters are all liars. No one will hurt my sweet boy." AGOT-Tyrion V
In Cat's first POV in the Eyrie, we see Sweetrobin upset and Lysa breastfeeding him as a form of comfort, and she is quite angry at Cat for upsetting him. In later books, we will see when Sweetrobin get's upset, he is given dreamwine. But in this case, he is noted to be "twitching" and Lysa remains calm and hugs the boy, and we hear no more of his possible seizure-like behavior. Does it just stop? Can Lysa sense the difference between a seizure and just "throwing a fit" of poor behavior? Or does she dare not breastfeed the child so publicly in the High Hall? And does the breast milk or dreamwine even make a difference to Sweetrobin's behavior? This little event seeming to stop on it's own just struck me as unexpected.
