Post by shymaid on Sept 17, 2018 14:37:22 GMT
Is the esteemed Ser Duncan the Tall a kinslayer?
Throughout the three stories we have of Dunk and Egg's travels, we hear again and again that Dunk's origins were unknown to him. Put best in this quote:
3. So Dunk has dreamed of finding his father at the Wall. Many could possibly not want to find their father there, with what that implies, but Dunk grew up with this possibility and it does not seem to daunt him. More importantly, this is one of the reasons he and Egg are on their way to Winterfell, and most probably a visit to the Wall, for their next adventure.
It was listening to the audiobook (I swear, Harry Lloyd has made me addicted to his storytelling...He could read me anything, and I do mean anything, at any time he likes!) that this last piece stood out to me: “if I could only reach the Wall, might be I'd come on some old man, a real tall man who looked like me.” For in The Sworn Sword there is another interesting sentence, that could relate to this.
When Dunk has arrived at Coldmoat to treat with the lady of the castle, he is first led to her castellan, Ser Lucas “the Longinch” Inchfield. Our first sight of him is:
Ok, so does that match Dunk's own features?
Well, that was dismal in terms of description... Do we get anything more?
And that is all, I fear... All we know of Dunk's appearance is that he is an inch shy of sevn feet and has a mop of thick, sun-streaked hair. Thanks, George... But to be fair, Dunk is our POV in these stories. so there you are.
But we have another opportunity to find out, as we have descendants of Dunk in the current story! Four, I think, are supposed to show up in the current timeline. And the biggest favorite is Brienne of Tarth. We learn that one of Dunk's pre-Kingsguard shields is stored at Evenfall Hall and inspires her own shield when looking for Sansa; she is uncommonly tall and unnaturally strong (according to Jamie), both traits we find in Dunk and he uses them for all they are worth.
But is there anything else we can use? Well, Catelyn is helpful (for once) with giving us her description:
Well, that sounded familiar, didn't it? Let's take another look at Ser Lucas!
Perhaps not proof, but I do find it compelling! It is possible that either Ser Lucas was at King's Landing at the appropriate time, or that his mother made her own way there for some reason. We learn that some soiled maids go there, after the deed is done, from Brienne's travels in search of Sansa.
My immediate question is that shouldn't either Dunk or Ser Lucas recognize the other, if this is the case? Well, that would depend on Dunk resembling his father, wouldn't it? That might not be the case. Perhaps he favors his mother instead, and perhaps the features of Ser Lucas showed up in his x-times granddaughter (I'm too lazy to make a count...
) Brienne. At least it's possible, I think.
The implications of this, on the other hand, are not so appealing...
As so many things in the tales of Dunk and Egg, this reminds me of passages from the main story:
This isn't a parallell to the Bael tale, as Ser Lucas did try to kill Dunk as Bael did not fight his son, but I find the element of Dunk almost being beheaded here, and that he did kill Ser Lucas interesting when considering this possibility. And I want to point out that there are several times the Old Gods are refered to in these stories, so might be our author has done this here as well, but in a slightly different way than what I've found so far.
This leaves the question of this mother still open, but I haven't looked into that yet. Perhaps there are too few clues to tell us anything at all.
Throughout the three stories we have of Dunk and Egg's travels, we hear again and again that Dunk's origins were unknown to him. Put best in this quote:
Born to betrayal, Dunk thought. Born of lust and weakness. Never to be trusted, great or small. "Egg," he said, "didn't you ever think that I might be a bastard?"
"You, ser?" That took the boy aback. "You are not."
"I might be. I never knew my mother, or what became of her.1 Maybe I was born too big and killed her. Most like she was some whore or tavern girl. You don't find highborn ladies down in Flea Bottom.1 And if she ever wed my father . . . well, what became of him , then?" Dunk did not like to be reminded of his life before Ser Arlan found him. "There was a pot shop in King's Landing where I used to sell them rats and cats and pigeons for the brown. The cook always claimed my father was some thief or cutpurse. 'Most like I saw him hanged,' he used to tell me, 'but maybe they just sent him to the Wall.'2 When I was squiring for Ser Arlan, I would ask him if we couldn't go up that way someday, to take service at Winterfell or some other northern castle. I had this notion that if I could only reach the Wall, might be I'd come on some old man, a real tall man who looked like me.3 We never went, though. Ser Arlan said there were no hedges in the north, and all the woods were full of wolves." He shook his head. "The long and short of it is, most like you're squiring for a bastard."
The Sworn Sword
"You, ser?" That took the boy aback. "You are not."
"I might be. I never knew my mother, or what became of her.1 Maybe I was born too big and killed her. Most like she was some whore or tavern girl. You don't find highborn ladies down in Flea Bottom.1 And if she ever wed my father . . . well, what became of him , then?" Dunk did not like to be reminded of his life before Ser Arlan found him. "There was a pot shop in King's Landing where I used to sell them rats and cats and pigeons for the brown. The cook always claimed my father was some thief or cutpurse. 'Most like I saw him hanged,' he used to tell me, 'but maybe they just sent him to the Wall.'2 When I was squiring for Ser Arlan, I would ask him if we couldn't go up that way someday, to take service at Winterfell or some other northern castle. I had this notion that if I could only reach the Wall, might be I'd come on some old man, a real tall man who looked like me.3 We never went, though. Ser Arlan said there were no hedges in the north, and all the woods were full of wolves." He shook his head. "The long and short of it is, most like you're squiring for a bastard."
The Sworn Sword
1. So his mother is unknown to him, and as a sidenote I have to point out the statement that “you don't find highborn ladies in Flea Bottom” we know is untrue. In the main story there is a prominent highborn girl who for a time resided in Flea Bottom. 
2. This is a reasonable assumption as Flea Bottom is crawling with thieves and cutpurses; though we know the dungeons of the Red Keep are emptied at times for recruits for the Wall, so the possibility is there that he ended on the Wall.
3. So Dunk has dreamed of finding his father at the Wall. Many could possibly not want to find their father there, with what that implies, but Dunk grew up with this possibility and it does not seem to daunt him. More importantly, this is one of the reasons he and Egg are on their way to Winterfell, and most probably a visit to the Wall, for their next adventure.
It was listening to the audiobook (I swear, Harry Lloyd has made me addicted to his storytelling...He could read me anything, and I do mean anything, at any time he likes!) that this last piece stood out to me: “if I could only reach the Wall, might be I'd come on some old man, a real tall man who looked like me.” For in The Sworn Sword there is another interesting sentence, that could relate to this.
When Dunk has arrived at Coldmoat to treat with the lady of the castle, he is first led to her castellan, Ser Lucas “the Longinch” Inchfield. Our first sight of him is:
They found Ser Lucas Longinch among the watchers at the quintain, speaking with a great fat septon who was sweating worse than Dunk, a round white pudding of a man in robes as damp as if he'd worn them in his bath. Inchfield was a lance beside him, stiff and straight and very tall . . . though not so tall as Dunk. Six feet and seven inches, Dunk judged, and each inch prouder than the last. Though he wore black silk and cloth-of-silver, Ser Lucas looked as cool as if he were walking on the Wall.
Walking the Wall, eh? Now that is interesting! This comes before Dunk's statement quoted above, so at least I didn't notice before I relistened several times.
But we would need something more to go on, other than being cool and almost of a height with Dunk. Shortly after this we get a better description of him:
Ser Lucas studied Dunk. He was an older man; forty at the least, perhaps as old as fifty, sinewy rather than muscular, with a remarkably ugly face. His lips were thick, his teeth a yellow tangle, his nose broad and fleshy, his eyes protruding. And he is angry, Dunk sensed, even before the man said, "Hedge knights are beggars with blades at best, outlaws at worst. Begone with you. We want none of your sort here."
Ok, so does that match Dunk's own features?
He did not need to study his reflection in the water to know that he did not look much a knight, so he slung Ser Arlan's shield across his back to display the sigil. Hobbling the horses, Dunk left them to crop the thick green grass beneath the elm as he set out on foot for the tourney grounds.
Well, that was dismal in terms of description... Do we get anything more?
Dunk pushed his fingers through his mop of sun-streaked hair. The dead were beyond his help, and they had casks of wine to get to Standfast. "Which way did we come?" he asked, looking from one road to the other. "I'm turned around."
The Sworn Sword
When they glimpsed the turrets of the inn above some willows, Dunk donned his sweaty tunic once again and stopped to splash some water on his face. he washed off the dust of the road as best he could, and ran wet fingers through his
thick mop of sun-streaked hair.
The Mystery Knight
thick mop of sun-streaked hair.
The Mystery Knight
And that is all, I fear... All we know of Dunk's appearance is that he is an inch shy of sevn feet and has a mop of thick, sun-streaked hair. Thanks, George... But to be fair, Dunk is our POV in these stories. so there you are.
But we have another opportunity to find out, as we have descendants of Dunk in the current story! Four, I think, are supposed to show up in the current timeline. And the biggest favorite is Brienne of Tarth. We learn that one of Dunk's pre-Kingsguard shields is stored at Evenfall Hall and inspires her own shield when looking for Sansa; she is uncommonly tall and unnaturally strong (according to Jamie), both traits we find in Dunk and he uses them for all they are worth.
But is there anything else we can use? Well, Catelyn is helpful (for once) with giving us her description:
Beauty, they called her . . . mocking. The hair beneath the visor was a squirrel's nest of dirty straw, and her face . . . Brienne's eyes were large and very blue, a young girl's eyes, trusting and guileless, but the rest . . . her features were broad and coarse, her teeth prominent and crooked, her mouth too wide, her lips so plump they seemed swollen. A thousand freckles speckled her cheeks and brow, and her nose had been broken more than once. Pity filled Catelyn's heart. Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman?
Catelyn II, Clash
Catelyn II, Clash
Well, that sounded familiar, didn't it? Let's take another look at Ser Lucas!
Ser Lucas studied Dunk. He was an older man; forty at the least, perhaps as old as fifty, sinewy rather than muscular, with a remarkably ugly face. His lips were thick, his teeth a yellow tangle, his nose broad and fleshy, his eyes protruding. And he is angry, Dunk sensed, even before the man said, "Hedge knights are beggars with blades at best, outlaws at worst. Begone with you. We want none of your sort here."
Perhaps not proof, but I do find it compelling! It is possible that either Ser Lucas was at King's Landing at the appropriate time, or that his mother made her own way there for some reason. We learn that some soiled maids go there, after the deed is done, from Brienne's travels in search of Sansa.
My immediate question is that shouldn't either Dunk or Ser Lucas recognize the other, if this is the case? Well, that would depend on Dunk resembling his father, wouldn't it? That might not be the case. Perhaps he favors his mother instead, and perhaps the features of Ser Lucas showed up in his x-times granddaughter (I'm too lazy to make a count...
) Brienne. At least it's possible, I think.The implications of this, on the other hand, are not so appealing...
Ser Lucas burst up out of the water right in front of him, sword in hand. He struck Dunk's neck a savage blow, and only the thickness of his gorget kept his head upon his shoulders. He had no blade to answer with, only his shield. He gave ground, and the Longinch came after, screaming and slashing. Dunk's upraised arm took a numbing blow above the elbow. A cut to his hip made him grunt in pain. As he backed away, a rock turned beneath his foot, and he went down to one knee, chest-high in the water. He got his shield up, but this time Ser Lucas struck so hard he split the thick oak right down the middle, and drove the remnants back into Dunk's face. His ears were ringing and his mouth was full of blood, but somewhere far away he heard Egg screaming. "Get him, ser, get him, get him, he's right there! "
Dunk dived forward. Ser Lucas had wrenched his sword free for another cut. Dunk slammed into him waist-high and knocked him off his feet. The stream swallowed both of them again, but this time Dunk was ready. He kept one arm around the Longinch and forced him to the bottom. Bubbles came streaming out from behind Inchfield's battered, twisted visor, but still he fought. He found a rock at the bottom of the stream and began hammering at Dunk's head and hands. Dunk fumbled at his swordbelt. Have I lost the dagger too? he wondered. No, there it was. His hand closed around the hilt and he wrenched it free, and drove it slowly through the churning water, through the iron rings and boiled leather beneath the arm of Lucas the Longinch, turning it as he pushed. Ser Lucas jerked and twisted, and the strength left him. Dunk shoved away and floated. His chest was on fire. A fish flashed past his face, long and white and slender. What's that? he wondered. What's that? What's that?
The Sworn Sword
As so many things in the tales of Dunk and Egg, this reminds me of passages from the main story:
She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."
"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.
"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."
Jon VI, Clash
"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.
"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."
Jon VI, Clash
This isn't a parallell to the Bael tale, as Ser Lucas did try to kill Dunk as Bael did not fight his son, but I find the element of Dunk almost being beheaded here, and that he did kill Ser Lucas interesting when considering this possibility. And I want to point out that there are several times the Old Gods are refered to in these stories, so might be our author has done this here as well, but in a slightly different way than what I've found so far.
This leaves the question of this mother still open, but I haven't looked into that yet. Perhaps there are too few clues to tell us anything at all.