While I do like the idea that it was a dragon that Summer saw escape from Winterfell, we have no idea if it looked like a white wyrm, which does hint at what ever lived below Valyria. A winged snake! I guess I don't see snakes and worms in the same way, but perhaps the key here is "wyrm" and not "worm". Do direwolves see in color? What color was the thing that was under Winterfell. It would be fitting if what ever it was was the color grey. That certainly is a Stark color. And although we don't know what color Silverwing was, we can assume she had some grey or silver in her coloring. It's funny how we are told that Vermithor was bronze, a color I associate with the First Men, but of Silverwing we get no color description at all.
I think white wyrm is more stylistic choice in my head cannon. Ghost is after all the White Wolf. Also the reason its a winged snake is because its from a Direwolf perspective, I don't remember if they see in color.
Interestingly, Jaehaerys and Alysanne's sister Rhaena's dragon Dreamfyre, who we are told was killed in the Storming of the Dragon Pit, was blue with silver markings. That's rather Stark-like coloring! I have wondered if these dragon's all came from the same clutch of eggs? Prince Aegon, the sibling of these Targaryen's, rode his father's dragon Quicksilver. The silver in the description of these dragon's is interesting to me, because silver is a color or metal that I have come to associate with the Stark's. Quicksilver and Silverwing are not physically described to us, but the color silver is strong imagery in both of these dragons.
We know that Jaehaerys and Alysanne came to Winterfell on their dragons, although Fire and Blood doesn't really give us details on this (not much more than we already had from the World Book, I mean). Silverwing was there, and Vermithor must have been, but there were supposedly five dragons all together. Who rode those dragon's north? Did they just tag along following the dragon's with riders. Did one of those five dragon's just crawl off into the crypt's of Winterfell? Perhaps the other three dragons were young and small? IF so, why drag them on such a journey?
Probably some of their kids flew the other dragons. Also it was a display of power for the Northerns, reminding them that the Dragonlords are large and in charge.
Or was an egg left behind at some point, (as is hinted with Jace's dragon, Vermax, of who we have no physical description of) and what might have hatched it? Whatever Summer see's is no newborn dragon. Dany's dragon's where practically helpless after they hatched, and didn't manage to fly or feed themeselves for quite some time.
Vermax leaving an egg is the likely source of getting a dragon egg IMO. Or later when they didn't get a Targaryen princess to marry. Or maybe the egg was a promise for the future bride.
So, I do see potential for a dragon to have been beneath Winterfell, and the First Keep has even lost it's side, as if something burst from it. The First Keep is the gargoyle tower, I think, which ties it to dragons in my opinion. But what dragon lie beneath it? Could it be our missing Silverwing? Or is it another dragon all together? And what was it doing there. Was it a captive of the Stark's, or was it being protected? Is it a fire dragon or ice dragon? So much potential in the hints that we get...
What if the Starks had been growing a dragon in secret for years then the info was lost before Rickon could pass it on to Eddard. It is often suspected that there is some secret info the Lords of Winterfell were privy to but it wasn't passed to Eddard.
Here is some tinfoil that just popped into my head. Could the Stark's have traded the New Gift away and received a young dragon in it's place?
I doubt it considering how pissed the Starks were. Also Alysanne had her own motivations for doing so. Crackpotish but she was trying to end Lord's right to the First night in the North. Which might have something to do with human sacrifice to the Others. Both PJ and I have good ideas on the issue.
...But Jaehaerys doesn't seem like a man who would be giving dragons away, considering his fear of what could happen if the three eggs that Elissa Farman stole managed to hatch. How funny IF those three eggs are Dany's eggs, and Dany turns out to not only hatch those eggs but not have a drop of Targaryen blood in her, but she is suddenly a powerful dragonlord, just as Jaehaerys feared all along! (please pardon my rambling thoughts...)
I can't imagine anyone giving a dragon egg again. Still I'm not most people.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
As a bit of an afterthought, once I started looking for dragon connections in the Starks, not just in Jon (who most people connect to Rhaegar), I was surprised by what I seen.
I've started a reread of AGOT and I'll be looking out for those connections.
It's possible that I am projecting a bit of what I want to see when it comes to the dragons, but there are most definitely heat and fire and fury and red rage in the Stark's, and that doesn't really fit my idea of winter and snow and ice and cool tempers! Those are there in the Stark's as well, but I think there is more. Perhaps an icy cover to a fire core! And the dragons get mentions in Ned and Arya and Jon and Bran's POV, although there are ice dragon hints in both Jon and Bran, so it's not just fire dragons, I think I see!
Madness on my part, perhaps...
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Yes, I was thinking something along these lines. An older female dragon (or perhaps the specific dragon that laid the eggs?) must be alive and in the general vicinity in order for eggs to hatch. I assume they also require heat, as they tend to be laid in places with volcanic activity... But then again, some eggs hatched inside baby's cradles, and Dany's eggs were clearly preparing for hatching even before she placed them in the fire.
Yes, I think there must be a series of key elements to get an egg to hatch. While it's bizarre to compare a dragon to a chicken, there need to be certain elements involved with hatching a chicken egg successfully. Hens and rooster's need to mate to get a fertile egg, then the egg must be incubated and eventually hatched, the brooding process, and if there is an interruption, the eggs may fail to hatch. So, dragon egg's might be similar. Although if GRRM is going for dragons are magic, then perhaps I am overthinking this whole dragon baby idea?
I like your suggestion that "queen" refers to a dragon that has laid or hatched eggs. Kind of like a queen bee! Maybe like bees, only a tiny fraction of dragons can lay eggs in the first place?
Thanks!!! That is what I was thinking as well. I don't know bee hatching well, but it seems like a hive needs a queen bee to survive, although worker bee's can also lay eggs (a very small amount and I don't know that they will successfully hatch). So, you need a queen, and then you need drones. It seems like a queen will mate with up to a dozen drones before she is able to lay fertilized eggs. Naughty queen!!!
If this applies to dragons, then you need a queen female, some drone males, and a bunch of worker bee's to feed and protect the larvae. When a new queen becomes available, then the worker bee's will kill the old queen so the new queen can breed. That is my very, very limited knowledge on bee's and I have no idea of it translates to dragons in any way at all.
But I do find it interesting that we get some of the Targaryen dragons that are linked to "queens" in their nicknames. The only other thought I have on these "queen" dragons is that perhaps they are born with more horns or a pattern in their horns that appears to be a crown!
I can't recall if any dragons successfully hatched away from Dragonstone. When the three eggs are stolen, Jaehaerys seems to think there is a good chance they won't hatch elsewhere, and they didn't (at least until much later). At least until the Dragonpit is finished, the dragons live on Dragonstone and that's where the eggs are laid and usually hatched. Hatchlings are then brought to KL as needed. Some eggs are placed in cradles... but it sounds like this practice only starts with Rhaena and wasn't a standard practice in Valyria or among Targaryens before this. (Interesting, right? The first Daenerys, for example, dies at age 6 and hadn't been given a hatchling yet, even though some were available on DS!) And IIRC, most (all?) successful cradle hatchings took place on Dragonstone...
I am trying to become much stronger on my dragon lore and knowledge, but right now I am thinking that at least Morning was a dragon that hatched in the Vale. I think that dragon was one of the three eggs that Rhaena, daughter of Daemon the Rogue Prince and Laena Valeryon, took to the Vale to protect. Perhaps that might be a reason why Morning didn't survive long. We have not been told what happened to that dragon yet, but at some point it grew big enough that Rhaena was able to fly on it. I am curious why the dragon died!
And yes, it was Rhaenyra who started the practice, with her three "strong" sons, on her father Viserys' orders. Based on the slander that the sons of Rhaenyra and Laenor were not "true born" dragons! All three boys's eggs hatched, but on Dragonstone. Which I think is where Sunfyre, Aegon's dragon hatched as well. But the eggs in the cradle started with Rhaenyra's boys. So, this is well after the time of Jaehaerys. But after the Princess Daenerys died, it was then that the young Targaryen's were given hatchlings. So, this process has changed and developed over time, but it seems like Dragonstone is a key element. Even if Morning hatched in the Vale, the egg was laid on Dragonstone, then taken away for safe keeping.
Dragonstone has volcano's. It has it's own internal heat source, which does remind me of Winterfell. So, could a dragon egg hatch at Winterfell, if certain conditions were correct? But what conditions are they???
I am slowly warming up to the idea that the Starks and Targaryens are more similar than we tend to think. There are other hints as well: Larra Rogare, from an old Valyrian family, can warg cats apparently, just like Arya. And Dany's fever dream in MMD's tent is really just another version of Bran's flying dream. The only two castles in all of Westeros to feature gargoyles are Dragonstone and Winterfell... and Winterfell just so happens to be built over an area with volcanic activity, just like... Dragonstone. It's enough to make one wonder if the Pearl Emperor wouldn't have had grey eyes.
Aaahhhh! I love the idea that the Pearl Emperor had grey eyes! That does makes sense, while most pearls are more white than grey, their shades can come in greyish tones, and even darken to black. Much like Stark eyes! Love, love, love this idea!!!
I do find the idea of cat skinchanging very interesting. The Rogare's have huge connections with cat's, as does Arya, first with catching them, and later when we see her "seeing" through the eyes of a cat. And Varamyr tells us that skinchanging cat's is hard, so the fact that Arya seems to be able to do this will little training is a huge hint at how powerful she is. Perhaps even more so than Bran! (Also the distance she is from Nymeria but still having wolf dreams is IMPRESSIVE!!!) And we get hints that birds are more difficult a well, but Sansa has this imagery about her. So, Arya and Sansa have some strong mojo in the skin-changing lottery. And Varamyr tells us Jon is strong, very strong but untaught. Bran seems to be the Stark kid the story points at us to look at, but I think we are seeing the power of Jon and Arya and Sansa. And Rickon! Heck, what is going on with that kid??? Unicorn or goats in Skagos!!! And I swear this makes my tinfoil about Robb skinchanging Catelyn at the time of his death even more possible. These kids are special and powerful!!!
(I also wonder about the Lannister's and cats, most especially Tommen)
Sometimes I think Young Griff may be the real Aegon. Maybe that's why the show named Jon Aegon: they are combining the two characters of Jon and fAegon into one character, for simplicity (like they did with Sansa and Jeyne Poole). So this way they can have Jon save the world, which they think is what fans want, but in the real story it will be Aegon who marries Daenerys, rides a dragon and sits the Iron Throne.
I think it is a very valid option for what the books might give us. And it does seem like the show has combined Jon and Aegon/Young Griff, but they did it in an odd, odd way! Jon is a major character who shouldn't need to be combined with anyone. However, Sansa has the story line of a major character, and the Jeyne-ized her, so ...
It seems very possible that her last dream, in the tent, was different from the others. In earlier dreams it's mostly just her and the dragon, but this last one is a flying dream similar to Bran's. In this one, her ancestors speak to her and giver her instructions, similar to the 3EC in Bran's dream. And this dream features the "whisperings of stars" which suggests the involvement of Quaithe or possibly Marwyn, both associated with stars or "starry wisdom".
Dany's last dream, after or during her birth of Rhaego, does feel different than the dreams she had before. Something about the voice telling her to go faster does mirror Bran's dream of the fly or die variety! Before then, it was just seeing the dragon, becoming the dragon... but that last dream has multiple visions tied to it, which does remind me quite a bit of Bran's coma dream.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Is there anywhere in the story the mention of a dragon actually laying eggs?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
And considering Valyria was situated in volcano-land, that kind of heat seems to be key to hatching. I do think a couple was hatched in King's Landing, Aegon II's children's eggs, so it's possible other places but harder I think. Not to mention that it really stands to reason, as dragons are fire made flesh - them needing a place like that sounds natural to me.
I did look at that section on the birth of the twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, and the text reads that eggs were placed in their cradles and two hatchlings soon came forth. It doesn't specify if these eggs were in Kings Landing, but the story leads us to believe that Rhaenyra and her family were on Dragonstone, while the children of Viserys and Alicent remained in Kings Landing. If that is that case, then Aegon and Helaena were married and had their children in Kings Landing, so this would be where the eggs hatched. Good catch!
Actually, with so many dragons hatching in Jaehaerys's reign (I think it was him, as most of this is taken from memory), so many that it was said eggs hatched every turn of the moon (at fullmoon?), I'm not sure at all that the hatchings had much to do with the Targaryens themselves at all right now! In fact, by the time of the Dance, there were so many that one of the wild ones were known to feast on hatchlings to the point of being named the Cannibal. That's not to say he only fed on hatchlings, but often enough to be known for it. Just imagine how many there would be if he had not culled the population! It really sounds like there were an exponential growth as the years went by.
Note that I haven't started to really dig into all of this from F&B yet, so this is mostly my impression so far and I might very well be wrong about this!
Another good catch! Yes, so many hatchlings they were like a delicacy to the Cannibal!! So, were all of these dragons hatched under Targaryen captivity, or perhaps some of them were being born and hatched in the wild, which could be possible if Cannibal was able to get to them and eat them with ease. One would think he would not just fly into Dragonstone's yard, pluck up a hatchling, and fly away for a snack. But maybe...
But I've always wondered if eggs ever turned into stone, or if that is their natural state. Like with eggs in our world, not all eggs hatch or have been fertilized. So those that "just turn into stone", as the quote above phrases it, might not be viable in the first place. Others might lack an "ingredient" for hatching.
Hmmm! So are you thinking that some eggs are just laid as stone, while other's are more viable eggs? That would be interesting. What could be the component that is missing to cause these eggs to be born differently.
We are given the impression by Jaehaerys I after Elissa Farman stole the eggs, that he thought the eggs would turn to stone if they were away from the heat of Dragonstone. But if an egg was born at Dragonstone and was made of stone, what could cause that? Maybe not all of Dragonstone is as hot as we speculate? Something about the thought of cold and dragon eggs made Jaehaerys associate them with stone.
From the reign of Jaehaerys we get this after Elissa stole three eggs, on page 209 in the hardback:
"If those eggs should hatch, there will be another dragonlord in the world, one not of our own house."
"They may not hatch," Benifer said. "Not away from Dragonstone. The heat ... it is known, some dragon eggs simply turn to stone."
Ahh, you had the quote already. So it was Benifer who claimed the eggs would perhaps turn to stone away from the heat of Dragonstone. I find it interesting that it was Grand Maester Benifer who said this and not Septon Barth, who seems much more interested in the dragons, and what they are. It probably means nothing but Benifer spend time in exile in Pentos while Maegor was king. Did Benifer learn something in Pentos about dragons eggs being stone? Because right now I find I am questioning this knowledge considering that Dany received her stone dragon eggs in Pentos! If Grand Maester Benifer looked on stone dragon eggs in Pentos, which helped in his knowledge of the stolen eggs, then perhaps the eggs that Elissa Farman stole and sold are not the eggs that Dany hatched? I know that it's never proved that they are, but the implication is there. Three stone eggs, three stolen eggs. GRRM, you are crafty and I don't know what to think about this!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I for one am starting to think that Aerys madness might be a bit overblown. 1) History is written by the victors 2) Lords were clearly plotting against him. He may have been paranoid but he was right in the end.
Tywin was certainly doing the best to improve his position and that of the crown. Also his line about Rhaegar being the right there should Aerys die always stuck with me. To be fair Aerys really treated him like shit in the end but there is enough blame to go around on each side.
I have also wondered that about Aerys. But it's so hard to prove, right? But, your comments are connecting Aerys and Tywin's rivalry again, and I am wondering just when the rumor's of Aerys' madness started to grow. Was it directly after Duskendale, or could it have been after Aerys refused to consider marrying Rhaegar to Cersei? Perhpas Tywin started a anti-propaganda campaign on Aerys at this time? Tywin is smart enough to know that enemies can be fought on many levels and with many weapons.
"Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens." ASOS-Tyrion I
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I think white wyrm is more stylistic choice in my head cannon. Ghost is after all the White Wolf. Also the reason its a winged snake is because its from a Direwolf perspective, I don't remember if they see in color.
Makes sense that Silverwing is in fact silver.
Aahh, I get what you are saying now and agree there is a color theme in this story. Silverwing could perhaps be white bodied but with silver wings. I wonder what color her eyes were? If Silverwing was what Summer saw (I get this is a huge long shot) did she come to Winterfell because she had been there before, with Alysanne. Did she in some way feel safe there? Or was she trapped? So many interesting possibilities!
I think white wyrm only stood out to me because I am thinking of the things that were in Aerea Targaryen's body or the thing that hatched from Laena Velaryon's cradle egg. Something was shifting for the Targaryen's when it came to their dragons. Something that didn't love the Targaryen's!
This also reminds me that Daemon Targaryen's dragon Caraxes was known as the Red Wyrm. So, did this dragon look different than other dragons, was his body more snake or wyrm-like? Was he longer and not as thick? Were his wings somewhat different. I find the nicknames of these dragons as interesting as I do their coloring!
Vermax leaving an egg is the likely source of getting a dragon egg IMO. Or later when they didn't get a Targaryen princess to marry. Or maybe the egg was a promise for the future bride.
From Jaeraerys' reaction when Elissa Farman stole the dragon eggs, I doubt he gave anyone a dragon egg. So, then perhaps later, during the Dance, as a way to gain northern involvement? At the time of the Dance, it does seem like their were plenty of eggs on Dragonstone, so perhaps one could be given as a gift on the sly and no one would really miss it. It still seem unlikely to give something of such value away.
As to Vermax, it's possible, and we do have this mentioned a couple times, once in the world book. Is it mentioned in Fire and Blood? I can't remember right now. What I do remember is that Vermax didn't like the cold. So, does the cold weather and a frosty dragon seem like optimal egg laying encouragement, or perhaps the dragon was so uncomfortable it might have sought warmth underground, near the source of the heat of Winterfell, and laid eggs then. That does seem the like most likely possibility to me!
What if the Starks had been growing a dragon in secret for years then the info was lost before Rickon could pass it on to Eddard. It is often suspected that there is some secret info the Lords of Winterfell were privy to but it wasn't passed to Eddard.
I would LOVE it if this was the case!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Is there anywhere in the story the mention of a dragon actually laying eggs?
We are told that Rhaena's dragon Dreamfyre was laying eggs on Fair Isle, I think. And then Rhaenyra's dragon Syrax is noted to have laid several clutches of eggs on Dragonstone. I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but there might be more!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I for one am starting to think that Aerys madness might be a bit overblown. 1) History is written by the victors 2) Lords were clearly plotting against him. He may have been paranoid but he was right in the end.
Agreed! One of the things I found suspicious about his madness was that we rarely hear of what that included, other than him "acting erratic" or something like that. Until Duskendale, that is. As strictly speaking, he had reasons to think people were plotting against him.
Tywin was certainly doing the best to improve his position and that of the crown. Also his line about Rhaegar being the right there should Aerys die always stuck with me. To be fair Aerys really treated him like shit in the end but there is enough blame to go around on each side.
Yes, they both treated each other rather badly as time passed, so I'm not pointing in just one direction when it comes to those two. Just found it rather ironic that the seed of that whole debacle was sowed so early in Aerys' reign and by his then trusted friend and Hand.
That line is interesting, and I wonder how the others reacted - including Rhaegar himself.
What if the Starks had been growing a dragon in secret for years then the info was lost before Rickon could pass it on to Eddard. It is often suspected that there is some secret info the Lords of Winterfell were privy to but it wasn't passed to Eddard.
While I'm not sure of them growing a dragon, I like the idea of information lost for the Starks (not to mention for the Targaryens... but that's off this topic!). I definitely think something was lost with Rikard and Brandon dying, but I have no idea of what. However, that might have happened earlier as well, like during the "Stark culling" a little into the 200s.
And Varamyr tells us that skinchanging cat's is hard, so the fact that Arya seems to be able to do this will little training is a huge hint at how powerful she is. Perhaps even more so than Bran! (Also the distance she is from Nymeria but still having wolf dreams is IMPRESSIVE!!!) And we get hints that birds are more difficult a well, but Sansa has this imagery about her. So, Arya and Sansa have some strong mojo in the skin-changing lottery. And Varamyr tells us Jon is strong, very strong but untaught. Bran seems to be the Stark kid the story points at us to look at, but I think we are seeing the power of Jon and Arya and Sansa. And Rickon! Heck, what is going on with that kid??? Unicorn or goats in Skagos!!! And I swear this makes my tinfoil about Robb skinchanging Catelyn at the time of his death even more possible. These kids are special and powerful!!!
I have long doubted that Bran is the strongest Stark in this batch! Mostly been thinking of Jon and Rickon in that line, but Arya should be counted in that as well from what we get in her arc. Robb I find harder to place in this regard, as he doesn't have a POV.
We are told that Rhaena's dragon Dreamfyre was laying eggs on Fair Isle, I think. And then Rhaenyra's dragon Syrax is noted to have laid several clutches of eggs on Dragonstone. I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but there might be more!
Off the top of my head, I can't remember any clutches laid by a named dragon other that what stdaga mentions here, but we do get this, and I type from page 352:
There were more dragons than ever before as well, and several of the she-dragons were regularly producing clutches of eggs. Not all of these eggs hatched, but many did, and it became customary for the fathers and mothers of newborn princelings to place a dragon's egg in their cradles, following the tradition that Princess Rhaena had begun many years before; the children so blessed invariably bonded with the hatchlings to become dragonriders,
I have also wondered that about Aerys. But it's so hard to prove, right? But, your comments are connecting Aerys and Tywin's rivalry again, and I am wondering just when the rumor's of Aerys' madness started to grow. Was it directly after Duskendale, or could it have been after Aerys refused to consider marrying Rhaegar to Cersei? Perhpas Tywin started a anti-propaganda campaign on Aerys at this time? Tywin is smart enough to know that enemies can be fought on many levels and with many weapons.
Yes, as I said above, I found it rather suspicious that we don't actually hear how this madness showed itself other than "acting erratic". Mostly its more just saying he showed "signs of madness" that other kings had before him, but didn't cause any harm. No example is given, either of Aerys' "madness" or which other Targaryen king who behaved "mad" that Aerys reminded of.
I did look at that section on the birth of the twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, and the text reads that eggs were placed in their cradles and two hatchlings soon came forth. It doesn't specify if these eggs were in Kings Landing, but the story leads us to believe that Rhaenyra and her family were on Dragonstone, while the children of Viserys and Alicent remained in Kings Landing. If that is that case, then Aegon and Helaena were married and had their children in Kings Landing, so this would be where the eggs hatched. Good catch!
Thanks!
Viserys mainly kept his children in King's Landing and only visited Dragonstone. IIRC, Rhaenyra and her family was moved permanently to Dragonstone as tensions rose between her and Alicent; before that the kids were raised together in an effort to make them friends (or so the chronicles tell us). Before that I think they went quite a bit back and forth between Dragonstone, Driftmark, and King's Landing with the last as a main base. So it might be that her elder children's eggs also hatched in King's Landing.
Another good catch! Yes, so many hatchlings they were like a delicacy to the Cannibal!! So, were all of these dragons hatched under Targaryen captivity, or perhaps some of them were being born and hatched in the wild, which could be possible if Cannibal was able to get to them and eat them with ease. One would think he would not just fly into Dragonstone's yard, pluck up a hatchling, and fly away for a snack. But maybe...
They had a hatchery, or maybe more. Here's Cannibal's introduction, and I type from page 443:
The largest and oldest of the wild dragons was the Cannibal, so named because he had been known to feed on the carcasses of dead dragons, and descend upon the hatcheries of Dragonstone to gorge himself on newborn hatchlings and eggs. Coal black with baleful green eyes, the Cannibal had made his lair on Dragonstone even before the coming of the Targaryens, some smallfolk claimed. (Grand Maester Munkun and Septon Eustace both found this story most unlikely, as do I.) Would-be dragontamers had made attempts to ride him a dozen times; his lair was littered with their bones.
It is also said in F&B (I don't remember where) that all the wild dragons had escaped from the hatcheries. But here we get the idea that at least one dragon present at the island before the Targaryens. Could there be stories of other wild pre-Targaryen dragons as well? Was this one of the reasons the Valyrians took the isle in the first place? A place suited for hatching dragons in that part of the world? I have so many questions on Dragonstone and the castle/citadel made there!
Hmmm! So are you thinking that some eggs are just laid as stone, while other's are more viable eggs? That would be interesting. What could be the component that is missing to cause these eggs to be born differently.
Well, not something I've thought much on, to be honest, in the way of forming a concrete theory/line of thought on it. It's just sounded odd to me that dragon eggs turn to stones in the first place. Mind you, I cracked the books knowing the eggs would hatch at the end of Game, but still I found it odd. Could it be that all dragon eggs appear like stone (in a lack of better phrasing... ) with the only difference really being if they hatch or not? What is the difference between a fresher egg and an old one that "has turned to stone"? We don't get any info on that as far as I've seen. Also, when Septon Barth is negotiating with the Sealord of Braavos, it is said that as long as the eggs don't hatch they are only beautiful and expensive stones. (I don't have the energy to find and type the quote right now.) So to be that sounds like they appear like stones in general.
Could be some eggs hatch easier than others, the latter needing "something" to be able to hatch maybe? Some eggs might also be duds, like an unfertilized egg or something.
We are given the impression by Jaehaerys I after Elissa Farman stole the eggs, that he thought the eggs would turn to stone if they were away from the heat of Dragonstone. But if an egg was born at Dragonstone and was made of stone, what could cause that? Maybe not all of Dragonstone is as hot as we speculate? Something about the thought of cold and dragon eggs made Jaehaerys associate them with stone.
Ahh, you had the quote already. So it was Benifer who claimed the eggs would perhaps turn to stone away from the heat of Dragonstone. I find it interesting that it was Grand Maester Benifer who said this and not Septon Barth, who seems much more interested in the dragons, and what they are. It probably means nothing but Benifer spend time in exile in Pentos while Maegor was king. Did Benifer learn something in Pentos about dragons eggs being stone? Because right now I find I am questioning this knowledge considering that Dany received her stone dragon eggs in Pentos! If Grand Maester Benifer looked on stone dragon eggs in Pentos, which helped in his knowledge of the stolen eggs, then perhaps the eggs that Elissa Farman stole and sold are not the eggs that Dany hatched? I know that it's never proved that they are, but the implication is there. Three stone eggs, three stolen eggs. GRRM, you are crafty and I don't know what to think about this!
Haha, yes, I'm already trying my best to put quotes behind my arguments! Even when I have to type them up myself!
From my memory right now - which might be wrong - many if not most of claims about dragons come from maesters, and surprisingly little from the Targaryens themselves. At times I've wondered if the family had a loss of knowledge at some point, maybe in that generation when three siblings became lord of Dragonstone before the Conquest. But it might just be that we wouldn't get that from the maesters.
It seems to me that we hear of dragon eggs turning into stones from non-Valyrian sources, like maesters and Illyrio. But how do they know? How much would be known of dragon eggs outside of Valyria and the dragonriding families?
Also, interesting tidbit! When Aegon II ordered dragon eggs to be sent to him after learning of the hatching of Morning in the Vale, it was the maester at Dragonstone that chose the eggs "he thought looked most promising". Indeed...
Yes, the implication is that the stolen eggs are those that end up with Dany. Including, from page 209:
"Then some spicemonger in Pentos will find himself possessed of three very costly stones," Jaehaerys said.
Not anything I've looked into closely yet, so I'm neither convinced or denying it right now.
I have also wondered that about Aerys. But it's so hard to prove, right? But, your comments are connecting Aerys and Tywin's rivalry again, and I am wondering just when the rumor's of Aerys' madness started to grow. Was it directly after Duskendale, or could it have been after Aerys refused to consider marrying Rhaegar to Cersei? Perhpas Tywin started a anti-propaganda campaign on Aerys at this time? Tywin is smart enough to know that enemies can be fought on many levels and with many weapons.
Remember Tywin tried to leave the Handship but Aerys refused, mayhaps he was just trying to get out of a job with a shitty boss?
Yes, they both treated each other rather badly as time passed, so I'm not pointing in just one direction when it comes to those two. Just found it rather ironic that the seed of that whole debacle was sowed so early in Aerys' reign and by his then trusted friend and Hand.
That line is interesting, and I wonder how the others reacted - including Rhaegar himself.
I think there were plenty of people to profit from the weakening of Aerys and Tywin bromance.
Also yes I would have loved to hear Rhaegar's response to Tywin telling him that if they let Aerys dies he would be a better king. Heck how does anyone respond to that?
While I'm not sure of them growing a dragon, I like the idea of information lost for the Starks (not to mention for the Targaryens... but that's off this topic!). I definitely think something was lost with Rikard and Brandon dying, but I have no idea of what. However, that might have happened earlier as well, like during the "Stark culling" a little into the 200s.
I agree growing a dragon in secret is a stretch but what did Summer see coming out of Winterfell. The world may never know.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Also yes I would have loved to hear Rhaegar's response to Tywin telling him that if they let Aerys dies he would be a better king. Heck how does anyone respond to that?
Indeed! It's one of the questions I have related to the theory that Tywin and Rhaegar planned the whole Duskendale shitstorm; that statement is used by quite a few to point in that direction. While it might hint that Tywin had a hand in it, I don't see how it points to Rhaegar actively participating in it.