Crackclaw Point is where Rhaegar may have found Lyanna after she ran away from the Vale like the quote houdinifrancis found . perhaps it is a clue to Lyanna who is associated with weirwoods ?
I'd be interested in learning more about Lyanna's visit to the Vale, please. I have trouble believing the Ned would allow his sister to 'escape' from the Vale. What with the weather and the Mountain Tribes, it seems unlikely.
When is Lyanna associated with weirwoods?
perhaps Dany was conceived there and that is when the slender weirwood started growing ? Crackclaw i mean
Is this about the 'dragons can find' quotation? That phrase seems to me more about a light-hearted take on Nimble Dick's venality. It ties into Brienne later putting gold coins into the man's grave.
This in itself is an interesting call-out to that burial Arya participates in where acorns are placed on a dead man's chest.
A boy called Tarber tossed a handful of acorns on top of Praed's body, so an oak might grow to mark his place.
Daenerys was conceived in the Red Keep, as far as we know.
I have no idea. The weirwoods, despite being called heart trees if they are in a godswood, are more often associated with eyes than hearts. I guess where I was going with this was just that maybe the idea of having a godswood with "heart trees" in it may have originated in Essos, with the Shade trees. Then somehow it transferred to Westeros, where they used the weirwoods and possibly had to adapt their religious practices a bit to make it work.
I don't if this is relevant, but in RL, when you see a cross section of a tree or large branch, it has a darker centre. This is the heartwood of the tree. Heartwood is a fascinating subject in itself, and the word itself is most evocative.
Poor warlocks. Every time they appear in the story, they lose. They are the official losers of this story.
So, so true. GRRM doesn't seem to approve of drug-enhanced experiences! You could be forgiven for thinking this is a foreshadowing of just how badly things could go for Euron.
I think the Eyrie is our other example of a godswood lack a weirwood, IIRC, but that was b/c one wouldn't grow up there. Which is also interesting, as we do have one growing inside Casterly Rock, so good soil does not seem to be a requirement.
Yes, the Eyrie doesn't have one, but not for lack of trying. It certainly begs the question of why it didn't take root - altitude perhaps?
Still, that makes the godwood in the Red Keep stand out even more to me.
Good point! I wonder if the weirwoods are "necessary" at all for greenseers to learn to see via the trees, or if they are simply a crutch to speed up the training process?
Seems like they are more like training wheels to me - or rather, training trees.
No reason, but why hide one or any of them? He has eight known bastard girls, well known in Dorne, and even on a Westerosi level, it is common knowledge that he supports his bastards boldly, so why hide any boys? I actually kind of like the idea of him having only daughters, but he could have a male child. I just don't think he has a plethora of them. One would be enough, or even none, but who knows what GRRM has in store! Maybe eight bastard boys to balance out his eight bastard girls and give Robert a run for his money in the bastard contest!
Haha, if he wanted he could rival Aegon the Unworthy!
That it's made a point of him only having girls, that he then overtly collects and trains, makes me wonder what he does covertly...
And now I'm quitting this thread until I get my hands on F&B! As I don't want to be spoiled, I don't dare enter any thread dealing with that book!
And this imagery that does seem to tie Bloodraven (probably) in his cave, with a white face and wormy eye, prepare her, and us that she will meet Bloodraven some day? Or is the image she actually see's is of the Kindly Man, who showed the face to Arya that seems connected to Bloodraven? What is the tie between the HotUD and the HoB&W?
And now we can add in the "pale fire wyrms with arms and faces" found in the princess that visited Valyria! AND the dragon hatchling that looked like a worm and attacked the Targaryen baby! It seems all but confirmed that the Valyrians were engaged in magical genetic engineering, creating human-animal hybrids. This makes it much more likely that they did, in fact, create dragons. We hear more than once in Fire & Blood that wyverns look a lot like dragons (minus the fire breathing and they don't get as big), and we are reminded of the firewyrms multiple times. It seems these firewyrms would have been pale and white, since they lived underground and all of GRRM's animals living in darkness (as in the real world) are pale and white. So, here is our clear connection between Targaryens and pale white worms.
The journey back the same way they came would be the death of them all. So, perhaps the river, as I have heard some people speculate on.
I have always wondered about the black pool in the House of Black and White, the black pool in Winterfell, the pool that Jon and Ygritte bathe in, the rushing water in Bloodraven's cave that is lost in the black abyss. Are they all black pools, or just the pool at Winterfell and the one in the HoB&W? Speaking of pools near weirwoods, the World Book reports a "tranquil pool" beneath the Three Singer's at Highgarden. Might we find out some day that this pool is black water?
Yes!! More connections between weirwoods and water. And yes, we see water in multiple locations that are tied together by other shared elements (black & white imagery, worm imagery, extension of life)...
I forgot that the trees at Highgarden are called the Three Singers! How fitting! It seems Garth the Gardener called the COTF by their own preferred name...
I think Euron was away for approx 2 years, maybe close to 3. I was under the impression that during this time is when Euron claimed to have gone to Valyria and sailed the smoking sea, and he also claimed to have gone to Asshai. If he made it to Asshai, then Qarth would be on the way, either to or from Asshai! Of course, it's possible he never went to any of these places. Who could verify his claims? Not his mute crew!
Oh I see now. You're suggesting he visited the HOTU, left there, and sometime later he captured the warlocks. Sure, that could fit. I just don't know if it's necessary, since he also could have learned much and more in Asshai and Valyria (with F&B making it more likely, IMO, that he did truly visit Valyria. If a child could survive there for a year, why shouldn't Euron get away with a visit?).
Here is that image. Now, perhaps it's not exactly like a hand, but I can see the concept of a thumb and three or four fingers, depending on how you squint. Humans have four fingers and it seems like we are told CotF have three. It also brings to mind the idea of the Order of the Greenhand (not the video channel theorists but the historical order). Does their name have something to do with Garth Greenhand, or course, but also a throne that was carved to look like a green hand?
Interesting! It seems likely that it was shaped like a hand on purpose. I do hope we get to learn more about this Order of the Green Hand, as it seems not only linked to Garth Greenhand but also the Green Men on the Isle of Faces. I assume there is a reason the Manderlys are featured more heavily in the more recent books...
Yes, it's mighty odd if that is a coincidence. Although I have never tied the Iron Born to High Heart before. Still, it's possible that the people who are the Iron Born might have been the original people who ruled this area of the riverlands. Perhaps they were driven out by the First Men's invasion. Could they have sought and found safe haven in the Iron Islands, and because of this given up their old gods and started the worship of the drowned god?
One of the earlier ironborn kings in F&B was referred to as "King of Sea and Rivers" or something similar. I wonder if the ironborn were more like the Rhoynar at one point, ruling everywhere they could travel by ship, and only later were confined to the ocean? They did at various times rule over parts of the Riverlands (Harren the Black being the last and most recent example). There are theories floating around that the Drowned God was in fact a Greenseer whose cave was flooded when the waters rose (maybe due to the Hammer, or simple rising of the seas by climate change). Kept alive by the trees, he could have continued communicating with his followers even after "drowning" ... hence the Drowned God. He is in a flooded cave, aka watery halls... but I digress.
I do find it an interesting coincidence that Theon is the first to be able to understand Bran speaking through the weirwood. He also sees Bran's face in the tree, and earlier (before he is Reek) he has a prophetic ("green"?) dream in Winterfell, where he foresees Robb and Grey Wind being killed at the Red Wedding and sees other Stark dead in the great hall. His uncle Euron seems to have experienced a "falling dream" similar to Bran and Dany, again suggesting greenseer potential in the Greyjoy family.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
I have always wondered about the black pool in the House of Black and White, the black pool in Winterfell, the pool that Jon and Ygritte bathe in, the rushing water in Bloodraven's cave that is lost in the black abyss. Are they all black pools, or just the pool at Winterfell and the one in the HoB&W? Speaking of pools near weirwoods, the World Book reports a "tranquil pool" beneath the Three Singer's at Highgarden. Might we find out some day that this pool is black water?
ETA: There is also the black river Ash in Asshai, and the Blackwater Rush next to King's Landing. I wonder where it got its name?
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
I find these two references mystifying. Any ideas of what they may be telling us?
I have a pretty tinfoil theory that the weirwoods are popping up in places that someone wants to be able to spy from. In my gut, I think it's Bran's power in the weirnet, but it might be Bloodraven, too. I didn't know about these weirwoods that Arianne notes as I haven't ready any of those chapters from Winds, but from the excerpt you posted, there seems to be more than one growing there. There is the single tree at Crackclaw point, which is described as slender, and so is the weirwood in the Godswood of Riverrun (I have no idea how old that tree is, but Cat notes that Robb is praying to it near the end of Game, but in her first chapter in Game, she tells us that there were no weirwoods in the south. I have always found that odd! How does she not remember the weirwood growing in the godswood of the very castle that she was raised in???
Or course, do these tree's need to be planted, or do they grow up from an invasive sort of root system? I really think that is how they spread! I suppose they can be planted too, but some must just grow on their own, such as the ones Jon talks about in the Wolfswood or the Haunted Forest or the ones that Arianne see's.
The more Quentyn heard of Daenerys Targaryen, the more he feared that meeting. The Yunkai'i claimed that she fed her dragons on human flesh and bathed in the blood of virgins to keep her skin smooth and supple.
This report finds its way to the Widow of the Waterfront
The old woman's smile turned feral. "I have heard it said that the silver queen feeds them with the flesh of infants while she herself bathes in the blood of virgin girls and takes a different lover every night."
Thanks for prodding my memory and supplying these links! Perhaps it's just something said about strong or powerful women, but in some ways, Dany's power did spring from a bath of blood. Only it was Drogo bathed in the blood of a red stallion! And we do have the one instance of Drogon perhaps killing and eating the young girl Hazzea. So perhaps a little truth mixed with a great deal of drama and superstition.
Crackclaw Point is where Rhaegar may have found Lyanna after she ran away from the Vale like the quote houdinifrancis found . perhaps it is a clue to Lyanna who is associated with weirwoods ? stdaga,
I don't guess I understand what link you are trying to make between Lyanna and weirwoods, especially this specific weirwood.
I'd be interested in learning more about Lyanna's visit to the Vale, please. I have trouble believing the Ned would allow his sister to 'escape' from the Vale. What with the weather and the Mountain Tribes, it seems unlikely.
I have speculated that Lyanna fled from Rhaegar or whatever kidnapping attempt was made upon her. I am not of the group that thinks she willingly eloped or went without a fight, if she went or was taken at all. But I do wonder if it was Lyanna who ended up in the Vale, and it was Lyanna who Ned fled with to the Fingers, then Three Sister's and then to Winter Harbor. If Lyanna was not the Fisherman's daughter, then it was Ashara, and Lyanna was somehow involved by the time they were in White Harbor. Tinfoil, of course... I don't think Ned would have let Lyanna travel alone through the Vale if he had any say in it! He seems to be too much of a protector than to allow that.
Haha, if he wanted he could rival Aegon the Unworthy!
That it's made a point of him only having girls, that he then overtly collects and trains, makes me wonder what he does covertly...
Well, Oberyn does seem to seed bastards just as easily as Robert Baratheon. But I do question how much Oberyn does/did that he hid. He seems to enjoy spectacles, so I don't seem him trying to hid much. He seems a showman, like he could be the ringmaster of a circus or something! But he might be hiding secret bastard boys that he is training in his own image! I just don't see the hints for it in the text, I guess. Subterfuge doesn't strick me as part of Oberyn's make up, but I could be wrong about that.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
** SPOILER WARNING in case anyone hasn't read Fire and Blood yet **
I appreciate the spoiler tag!!!
I have not finished it yet. As a matter of fact, I am almost attempting to read it slowly as if to make it last, since we won't be getting any new material for a while, I suspect. So, I didn't read any further in your post that the first line! Once I get F&B finished, I will circle back to posts that might involve it!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Again, the numbers seem to be too specific to be a coincidence. I have wondered about the idea of the weirwood grove that Jon and Sam take their vows at, with it's 9 weirwoods, and how that number 9 could be connected to the 9 black iron spikes that are shaped like swords that were on the King's of Winter crown. I have questioned if those 9 weirwoods north of the wall are tied to 9 other weirwoods south of the wall, some where in the lands of the Kings of Winter? If Jon wanted, could he see the Winterfell godswood if he connected to the correct tree in that grove??? Sorry for the little rabbit hole, but this seems like similar speculation to your idea's on Nagga's ribs being weirwoods possibly tied to islands.
Oooh I had not noticed this before! It would make sense for the Kings of Winter to symbolize their connection to the weirwoods they worshipped. A circle of 9 of them would have been the holiest site in the North, presumably, so why not model the crown after it?
I also like the idea of the 9 weirwoods each having a representative weirwood in the south. Though I don't know if it's really necessary, since it seems like the weirwoods are all connected, and sitting in the roots of one you can see through the eyes of all of them. I think there is definitely something special about that grove though; there must be a reason why in this particular place, 9 weirwoods were planted in a circle when usually we see them one at a time. What is the benefit of 9 weirwoods with faces over just one, if you're simply communicating with a greenseer/Old Gods? Maybe planting multiple weirwoods amplifies their power somehow, so you create a magical hotspot?
I question if humans can plant them at all, simply because they don't have seeds. The only time we hear of weirwoods seeds is in the past that the CotF make for Bran. Hard to plant a tree if you don't have a seed.
I wonder what causes them to produce seeds? You're right, we never hear about it except in that Bran chapter, so they must not produce seeds often. Perhaps a blood sacrifice is required? (Aha - a new twist in the Jojen paste theory!)
Well, it's hard for me to imagine that the Blackwoods would hire someone to chop down a weirwood grove, if I understand you correctly, since they are so strongly connected to the weirwoods. But perhaps that would be a twist that wasn't expected? And when exactly did the Blackwoods end up in the Riverlands after the Stark's drove them from the north? I do wonder if it might not have been the other way around, with the Bracken's hiring Andal's to attack the grove? This might have had something to do with the Bracken's changing from worship of the old gods to worship of the Faith of the Seven. Perhaps that was the price they had to pay to get an Andal war band to attack and destroy the tree's at High Heart?
I don't know what to make of the Blackwoods. On the one hand, they seem very much associated with the Old Gods, but there are other signs as well. The name, for one. The fact they were kicked out of the North. What did they do? Not even the Boltons got kicked out, and they flayed the Stark kings and wore them as cloaks!!! If that doesn't get you kicked out of the North, what does? And of course one must consider the fact that their famous weirwood, the namesake of their castle, is, well, dead. They let their weirwood die. Maybe it really was poisoned, maybe by the Brackens - but nevertheless, the heart tree in their godswood is a corpse. Dead. For a thousand years. That's a long time not to plant a new one, don't you think?
On the other hand, we have Brynden Rivers the greenseer, who is becoming one with a weirwood. And the fact that the Blackwoods still keep the Old Gods (yet with a dead heart tree), even in the south.
What we also see from house Blackwood are multiple marriages to Targaryens, who are associated with fire. We know from the GOHH that the trees don't love fire, and fire magic won't work on High Heart. Yet the Blackwoods continue marrying the dragons, not other FM houses that keep to the Old Gods. (By contrast, we rarely see the Starks intermarrying with Targaryens or southerners in general.)
I don't disagree that the Brackens are the more likely candidate to have killed the weirwood, and also are probably responsible for High Heart. But it would be more interesting if it had been the Blackwoods.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
And yet, both Brienne and Arianne come across young weirwood trees far south of the Gift.
Brienne, at Crackclaw Point and Arianne in the Stormlands
...the yard was all weeds and pine needles. Soldier pines were everywhere, drawn up in solemn ranks. In their midst was a pale stranger; a slender young weirwood with a trunk as white as a cloistered maid. Dark red leaves sprouted from its reaching branches
Well the "pale stranger" comment immediately makes me think of the Stranger. Another association between weirwoods and death. It is pale because it hasn't had a blood meal in a while - but it's about to get one after Brienne kills her attackers!
Not sure about the ones Arianne sees, but if nothing else her chapter confirms that they do grow wild and don't necessarily have to be planted. It still wouldn't surprise me if they grew in places where someone was killed and blood soaked into the ground.
Perhaps it's just something said about strong or powerful women, but in some ways, Dany's power did spring from a bath of blood. Only it was Drogo bathed in the blood of a red stallion! And we do have the one instance of Drogon perhaps killing and eating the young girl Hazzea. So perhaps a little truth mixed with a great deal of drama and superstition.
Oh very interesting, this had not occurred to me before. You're right, all the best lies contain a bit of truth. This makes me look at the other accused blood bathers in a new light. I had thought that, like Dany, they were innocent of any blood bathing .... but she really isn't. The blood bath was, of course, part of a blood magic ritual, so it's probably safe to assume that the other accused, such as Shiera Seastar, were engaging in blood magic as well.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
they are simply a crutch to speed up the training process?
Seems like they are more like training wheels to me - or rather, training trees.
That's a very good point. Lord Rivers tells Bran
"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."
I don't think Ned would have let Lyanna travel alone through the Vale if he had any say in it! He seems to be too much of a protector than to allow that.
Also, we're talking about the dead of winter, AFAIK. I really can't get a clear idea of just what happened in those frantic months. Can't wait til TWOW is published!
They let their weirwood die. Maybe it really was poisoned, maybe by the Brackens - but nevertheless, the heart tree in their godswood is a corpse. Dead. For a thousand years. That's a long time not to plant a new one, don't you think?
My oh my. You have given me something to mull over, indeed. Let's contrast this neglect to plant a tree with that anonymous apple seller Davos encounters in White Harbour.
"I heard his daughter was to wed some Frey." "His granddaughter. I heard that too, but his lordship forgot t' invite me to the wedding. Here, you going to finish that? I'll take the rest back. Them seeds is good." Davos tossed him back the core. A bad apple, but it was worth half a penny to learn that Manderly is raising men.
It's merely a throw away line, but it speaks volumes!
I have a pretty tinfoil theory that the weirwoods are popping up in places that someone wants to be able to spy from. In my gut, I think it's Bran's power in the weirnet, but it might be Bloodraven, too. I didn't know about these weirwoods that Arianne notes as I haven't ready any of those chapters from Winds, but from the excerpt you posted, there seems to be more than one growing there. There is the single tree at Crackclaw point, which is described as slender, and so is the weirwood in the Godswood of Riverrun (I have no idea how old that tree is, but Cat notes that Robb is praying to it near the end of Game, but in her first chapter in Game, she tells us that there were no weirwoods in the south. I have always found that odd! How does she not remember the weirwood growing in the godswood of the very castle that she was raised in???
That's a good catch about the weirwood at Riverrun. Now we have three slender weirwoods in the South.