My oh my. You have given me something to mull over, indeed. Let's contrast this neglect to plant a tree with that anonymous apple seller Davos encounters in White Harbour.
"I heard his daughter was to wed some Frey." "His granddaughter. I heard that too, but his lordship forgot t' invite me to the wedding. Here, you going to finish that? I'll take the rest back. Them seeds is good." Davos tossed him back the core. A bad apple, but it was worth half a penny to learn that Manderly is raising men.
It's merely a throw away line, but it speaks volumes!
Exactly! The apple tree is not even dead (presumably, since it just produced fruit) and already its owner is planning to plant more. But the weirwood died and for a thousand years it didn't occur to anyone to plant another? Seems like it wasn't all that important to them, does it. Now, it may not be easy to find weirwood seeds, but we don't hear anything about the Blackwoods frantically searching for them either. Nor did they find a wild sapling and transplant it to their castle. It's a conspicuous lack of effort for a House that claims to worship the Old Gods and whose castle is named Raventree Hall.
That's a good catch about the weirwood at Riverrun. Now we have three slender weirwoods in the South.
There are some old, big ones as well. We have the angry one at Harrenhal, and until very recently the one at Storm's End. There are three ancient big ones at Highgarden. And the Isle of Faces is supposedly full of them.
Cat is an incredibly unreliable narrator (Sansa clearly gets it from her mother!). We probably shouldn't believe anything she says unless it's backed up by another source.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Well I figured out where the name came from. This is from a Jaime chapter in ADWD:
Raventree Hall was old. Moss grew thick between its ancient stones, spiderwebbing up its walls like the veins in a crone’s legs. Two huge towers flanked the castle’s main gate, and smaller ones defended every angle of its walls. All were square. Drum towers and half-moons held up better against catapults, since thrown stones were more apt to deflect off a curved wall, but Raventree predated that particular bit of builder’s wisdom.
The castle dominated the broad fertile valley that maps and men alike called Blackwood Vale. A vale it was, beyond a doubt, but no wood had grown here for several thousand years, be it black or brown or green. Once, yes, but axes had long since cleared the trees away. Homes and mills and holdfasts had risen where once the oaks stood tall. The ground was bare and muddy, and dotted here and there with drifts of melting snow. Inside the castle walls, however, a bit of the forest still remained. House Blackwood kept the old gods, and worshiped as the First Men had in the days before the Andals came to Westeros. Some of the trees in their godswood were said to be as old as Raventree’s square towers, especially the heart tree, a weirwood of colossal size whose upper branches could be seen from leagues away, like bony fingers scratching at the sky.
How convenient that the trees that gave the vale the name "blackwood" are all gone. It sure sounds like they would have had black wood though... so they were either Shade trees or ebony. Both are very valuable so it's strange that they were cut down to the last one.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Cat is an incredibly unreliable narrator (Sansa clearly gets it from her mother!). We probably shouldn't believe anything she says unless it's backed up by another source.
Well, at least on the subject of weirwood trees, anyway. It's going to be interesting to see how LSH's story develops in TWOW!
I haven’t read all the post yet but wanted to get this off my chest: got last night to Doctrine of Exceptionalism that Jaehaerys imposed in Westeros and folly fucking hell I was pissed. I wish that hedge night and his sisters DID fuck and see if the king would have tried and killed the bastards. I can’t express the level of pissed that shitty Doctrine incited in me. I mean I am mad about real life politics sometimes (rarely nowadays actually as I’ve become immune to it) but boy, that Targ King successfully succeeded in pissing me off. I suppose the writing is pretty good if it can get this rise outta me even though I know it’s not real. And never was. I am also pissed when people bring up the American Exceptionalism though. Which is the most ridiculous idea this country has ever gobbled directly from the sarcasm plate of Stalin...so maybe this thing still holds in real life.
Hope all of you enjoy the book. I know I do.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
What real connection is there between Dany and weirwoods?
I think I may have found one, though it's not super direct. Here is this quote from TWOIAF:
Though considered disreputable in this, our present day, a fragment of Septon Barth’s Unnatural History has proved a source of controversy in the halls of the Citadel. Claiming to have consulted with texts said to be preserved at Castle Black, Septon Barth put forth thatthe children of the forest could speak with ravens and could make them repeat their words. According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed, in degraded form, down to the maesters today, who no longer know how to speak to the birds.
Unnatural History is the abbreviated name of Barth's famous book Dragons, Wyrms and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History. We learned in FAB that he was inspired to write this book after what happened to Aerea, and that the book examines the origins of dragons, coming to the apparent conclusion that Valyrians created them (along with their own magical abilities) using blood magic and the combining of different species. Again, the focus (also reflected in the book's name) is Valyria and the birth of dragons.
Which begs the question: why is he consulting texts at Castle Black, and why is he discussing the COTF and the skinchanging of ravens in a book about dragons???
I have always resisted theories linking the COTF/greenseers to Valyrians or other Essosi cultures (such as Faceless Men), but I am starting to wonder if there isn't a link after all. We get other hints in TWOIAF as well:
This is not to say that the greenseers did not know lost arts that belong to the higher mysteries, such as seeing events at a great distance or communicating across half a realm (as the Valyrians, who came long after them, did).
I would note here that Valyrians did this via glass candles, made of obsidian - which of course is also a favorite material used by the COTF.
If indeed this first fortress is Valyrian, it suggests that the dragonlords came to Westeros thousands of years before they carved out their outpost on Dragonstone, long before the coming of the Andals, or even the First Men. If so, did they come seeking trade? Were they slavers, mayhaps seeking after giants? Did they seek to learn the magic of the children of the forest, with their greenseers and their weirwoods? Or was there some darker purpose?
Such questions abound even to this day. Before the Doom of Valyria, maesters and archmaesters oft traveled to the Freehold in search of answers, but none were ever found. Septon Barth’s claim that the Valyrians came to Westeros because their priests prophesied that the Doom of Man would come out of the land beyond the narrow sea can safely be dismissed as nonsense, as can many of Barth’s queerer beliefs and suppositions.
Last Edit: Nov 28, 2018 16:07:54 GMT by Maester Sam
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
I haven’t read all the post yet but wanted to get this off my chest: got last night to Doctrine of Exceptionalism that Jaehaerys imposed in Westeros and folly fucking hell I was pissed. I wish that hedge night and his sisters DID fuck and see if the king would have tried and killed the bastards. I can’t express the level of pissed that shitty Doctrine incited in me. I mean I am mad about real life politics sometimes (rarely nowadays actually as I’ve become immune to it) but boy, that Targ King successfully succeeded in pissing me off. I suppose the writing is pretty good if it can get this rise outta me even though I know it’s not real. And never was. I am also pissed when people bring up the American Exceptionalism though. Which is the most ridiculous idea this country has ever gobbled directly from the sarcasm plate of Stalin...so maybe this thing still holds in real life.
Hope all of you enjoy the book. I know I do.
Hmm, interesting take on this. While I would wholeheartedly agree that any such beliefs in the real world are nonsense to say the least, in the case of the Valyrians it seems they really are a people apart from the rest. They alone can bond with dragons, and their occasional monster babies prove that dragon blood was introduced into their bloodline at some point to facilitate this bond.
They seem to have been magically genetically engineered in other ways as well, giving them exceptional beauty, prophetic dreams and increased resistance to disease. The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler: all Valyrians are sphinxes, carrying the blood of not just humans but also dragons and who knows what else (maybe those silver haired purple-eyed monkeys found in the forest of Qohor? Maybe just a drop of COTF, to help with animal bonding and prophecy?). "Blood of the dragon" is not just an expression; Valyrians really do carry dragon blood (or genes).
Knowing this, they have a pretty legitimate reason to keep the bloodline pure: if they dilute the dragon blood too much, their descendants will become "ordinary" and lose their special traits. Which leads to the (largely philosophical) question: is exceptionalism wrong if you truly are exceptional?
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
if in the case of the Valyrians it seems they really are a people apart from the rest. They alone can bond with dragons, and their occasional monster babies prove that dragon blood was introduced into their bloodline at some point to facilitate this bond.
It’s is not true though. What is commonly quoted as general knowledge by lots of people who read the books is not true according to TWOIAF and F&B and completely not addressed in the original books if I recall correctly.
When Lyman Lannister eventually offered to buy Dreamfyre’s three dragon eggs from Rhaena we get this from the Targaryen Queen:
With dragonriders of their own, the Lannisters would be the equals of the Targaryens. “They were kings once,” she reminded Sam Stokeworth. “He smiles, but he was raised on tales of the Field of Fire; he will not have forgotten.” Rhaena Targaryen knew her history as well; the history of the Freehold of Valyria, writ in blood and fire.
In later chapters Jaehaerys says to Rhaena when Elissa Farman steals the three dragon eggs:
“If those eggs should hatch, there will be another dragonlord in the world, one not of our own house.”
I’m not sure why you think they are the only ones who can bond with dragons. Obviously THEY know it is not true. To me it truly sounds like a play on the supernatural so they can commit incest without any repercussions while they condem and promise to punish such “abominable” behavior outside their house. Frankly I’d love now for Jamie be a head of the dragon in the books so he can say he has earned the right to fuck Cersei! It also sounds like they want to contain their power. If dragons are a weapon of mass destruction you wouldn’t want others to have it.
Notice also that strangely enough the Doctrine does not say (as the Septon who was sent by Jaehaerys dared the hedge knight): incest is an abomination if you cannot prove you can ride a dragon. It says it’s an abomination if you’re not a Targaryen. So there’s that.
In my ignorance I always took the malformations as inbreeding signs that people exaggerated and “seeing” dragon resembling parts. I may very well be wrong though I am not versed in what happens genetically when generation after generation marries brothers and sisters etc. I thought that was a sign they REALLY are in need of new blood not that they need to keep the “blood pure” by more inbreeding. 😳 gosh, now I’ll have to read about this so I won’t be an ignoramus forever. Sorry, Maester Tully if I got this wrong.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
In my ignorance I always took the malformations as inbreeding signs that people exaggerated and “seeing” dragon resembling parts.
Well, Harlequin-type ichthyosis is a real thing, without any recourse to dragons.
WARNING: do NOT search for images of this condition unless you have a strong stomach. If I saw a child in RL with this condition I'd be inclined to think in terms of the supernatural, even knowing it's a medical condition.
It’s is not true though. What is commonly quoted as general knowledge by lots of people who read the books is not true according to TWOIAF and F&B and completely not addressed in the original books if I recall correctly.
When Lyman Lannister eventually offered to buy Dreamfyre’s three dragon eggs from Rhaena we get this from the Targaryen Queen:
With dragonriders of their own, the Lannisters would be the equals of the Targaryens. “They were kings once,” she reminded Sam Stokeworth. “He smiles, but he was raised on tales of the Field of Fire; he will not have forgotten.” Rhaena Targaryen knew her history as well; the history of the Freehold of Valyria, writ in blood and fire.
In later chapters Jaehaerys says to Rhaena when Elissa Farman steals the three dragon eggs:
“If those eggs should hatch, there will be another dragonlord in the world, one not of our own house.”
I’m not sure why you think they are the only ones who can bond with dragons. Obviously THEY know it is not true
Ok sure, let's assume that in addition to dragonseeds there are some completely non-Valyrian people in this world who can bond with dragons. (Probably not very many though, would you agree? Based on the outcome of the Red Sowing, it seems that dragonriders are few and far between even among the smallfolk of Dragonstone, let alone the general population). Unfortunately, in most cases it is unknown who these potential dragonriders are, so the Targaryens would have had no way of seeking them out for marriage. So in order to maintain the blood of the dragon, they would have had to resort to incest.
Speaking of dragonriders being rare, the one place they are not rare is in the Targaryen family. Again, from the Red Sowing we learned that most people can't ride dragons and get roasted if they try. Even most dragonseeds failed, though two succeeded. And then there was Nettles. We don't know if she was a dragonseed (her place of birth makes it possible or even likely, and not all dragonseeds look Valyrian as we know from Rhaenyra's first three sons) - but let's assume she wasn't. That would make her the one and only example of someone without Valyrian blood riding a dragon in the entire series. So in other words - it's very, very rare. Yet in the Targaryen family, almost everybody is a dragonrider. So that tells me there is a difference there, something that sets them apart.
But even aside from dragons, Targaryens are resistant to most diseases. We witness one exception in FAB (Alysanne's daughter Daenerys), and a few others are mentioned in TWOIAF- though most of the latter are several generations and non-incestuous marriages later, when the blood may have been diluted too far already. There is also the higher temperature tolerance that sets them apart: Dany likes her bath hotter than normal people, and doesn't burn herself taking the eggs off the brazier. So it very much seems to me that the Targaryens are different from most other people, and that these differences are a result of carrying actual dragon blood from some terrible (but successful) experiment in old Valyria or before.
Notice also that strangely enough the Doctrine does not say (as the Septon who was sent by Jaehaerys dared the hedge knight): incest is an abomination if you cannot prove you can ride a dragon. It says it’s an abomination if you’re not a Targaryen. So there’s that.
I imagine they wanted a doctrine the septons would go along with, which would have been problematic if they extended the right of incest to all their bastard offspring and any other potential dragonriders. And how would that be enforced? If someone in the North or the Vale is accused of incest, do they have to travel all the way to King's Landing and ... claim a dragon? Most would get roasted but occasionally someone would get a free dragon. The latter would surely be a deal breaker for the Targaryens.
In my ignorance I always took the malformations as inbreeding signs that people exaggerated and “seeing” dragon resembling parts. I may very well be wrong though I am not versed in what happens genetically when generation after generation marries brothers and sisters etc. I thought that was a sign they REALLY are in need of new blood not that they need to keep the “blood pure” by more inbreeding. 😳 gosh, now I’ll have to read about this so I won’t be an ignoramus forever. Sorry, Maester Tully if I got this wrong.
I actually have a pretty good understanding of genetics and while long-term incest can certainly lead to many problems including terrible malformations, I don't think it can lead to wings. Human DNA doesn't contain the genes (instructions) needed to grow wings. That would have to come from an outside source. (Assuming, of course, that GRRM is following normal human genetics, which may not be the case).
Note also that several of the "dragon-like" babies are born to couples in which one spouse is non-Targaryen (Ex: Dany/Drogo and two of Maegor the Cruel's wives) which wouldn't be expected if incest is the cause.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Well, Harlequin-type ichthyosis is a real thing, without any recourse to dragons.
WARNING: do NOT search for images of this condition unless you have a strong stomach. If I saw a child in RL with this condition I'd be inclined to think in terms of the supernatural, even knowing it's a medical condition.
I will NOT I don't have that much of a strong stomach especially when it comes to kids.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
Ok sure, let's assume that in addition to dragonseeds there are some completely non-Valyrian people in this world who can bond with dragons. (Probably not very many though, would you agree? Based on the outcome of the Red Sowing, it seems that dragonriders are few and far between even among the smallfolk of Dragonstone, let alone the general population). Unfortunately, in most cases it is unknown who these potential dragonriders are, so the Targaryens would have had no way of seeking them out for marriage. So in order to maintain the blood of the dragon, they would have had to resort to incest.
Yes, the dragonriders outside the Targaryans at this moment in the Planetos history are rare. However unlike you I believe they are rare largely because dragons and dragon eggs are a bit hard to come by. Only the Targs (the family in power in Westeros) have them, they don't share them, they are afraid others might get some and have dragonriders of their own as they themselves admit, so yes, obviously it is rare. Denying the opportunity of others to have them WOULD make it hard to know how many others could tame dragons in time with proper care an patience, given the chance. Nettles used sheeps for a while, to get a dragon to accept her, no? she didn't just jumped up and rode her dragon. Many times a dragon egg is placed in the Targaryen baby cradles too. The Targ kids visit their lair/pit. There's a process to get dragons to accept people, it's a lot like training them to be around you.
And I don't even begrudge them the protection of their pets/weapons, but when you enforce a piece of legislation that would automatically put yourself above the others, giving you a specific privilege by sheer dint of lording it that you have a dragon and only you can bond with it because: I ain't sharing it, it kinda makes you a dick when you also like to think of yourself fair or for others to do so. Which is why I had the original rant to begin with.
By the way, I didn't say they don't have a particular affinity to them as it was their family business for centuries but they were not quite so unique anyway since Valyrians had other houses with dragons and dragonriders.
But even aside from dragons, Targaryens are resistant to most diseases. We witness one exception in FAB (Alysanne's daughter Daenerys), and a few others are mentioned in TWOIAF- though most of the latter are several generations and non-incestuous marriages later, when the blood may have been diluted too far already. There is also the higher temperature tolerance that sets them apart: Dany likes her bath hotter than normal people, and doesn't burn herself taking the eggs off the brazier. So it very much seems to me that the Targaryens are different from most other people, and that these differences are a result of carrying actual dragon blood from some terrible (but successful) experiment in old Valyria or before.
Well, your view is definitely supported by what happened to Aerea to be sure.
Someone definitely tried to incubate some Valyrian (?) animals in her since she seemed to be tolerant to high temps.
Different in some aspects, maybe. Exceptional not so much. Childbirth which is a natural enough process is just as hard for them as for common folk or other Westeros noble houses.
Daenerys dying of the Shivers. When the disease first struck, Jaehaerys put all his family in the Red Tower I think and barred the doors. Definitely helped with restriction of the disease. Quarantine works and still Dany caught it.
I would be curious to know if these "resistance" stuff they tout is really just because they are different genetically as you suspect or because they really have the best of care and always had since they are royalty and obviously an array of information and maesters at their fingertips, while the smallfolk is left to fend to themselves.
Perhaps it will be more clear by the end of the book, right now I'm only about halfway in and still enjoying it. If it weren't for the Doctrine stuff hypocrisy I dislike so much, I think Jaehaerys would have been definitely my fave. Well, actually Alysanne would be my fave. Jaehaerys just a close second...
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
I was looking to see more of what other people thought about dragons and dragon riders on Westeros forums. I haven't read that forum in a very long time.
And there he is the asshole-in-chief Elio Garcia laying down the law about why dragons do stuff and who they follow:
Posted November 24
Here's a solution to the riderless dragon business: dragons are creatures of magic, and are responsive to destiny/prophecy/whatever.
Drogon insisting on going with Dany into the House of the Undying was because that's where it was supposed to be. Drogon showed up at Daznak's Pit because it was time for Dany to fly, and it came to her in the Dothraki Sea because it was time for her to continue her destiny. One might say, "Well, these are just plot conveniences", and that may be true... but there's no reason not to suppose they have some kind of purpose.
Therefore, because dragons are not of human intelligence, but have a kind of alien intelligence, perhaps they perceive time and causation differently. So when Vhagar and Dreamfyre were asked to fly elsewhere without riders, without even being owned by riders, it was because it was their destiny to do so, and so they did it. The Targaryens may think they do it because they offered them baskets of roasted meats tossed along for them to gobble, or because they ask nicely, or because the hop on one leg three times while crossing their eyes, but in reality the dragons do it because they must.
The end.
I have no idea why we all try to figure out stuff from a book we just bought, if there's an end to the discussion directly from the co-author of WOIAF himself. Seriously, now I know why I never felt any desire to comment over there.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
I still haven't finished F&B, but I can't stay away any more. Since I haven't finished the book, I will have to skip over answering some things, because I haven't formed any thoughts on it yet.
And now we can add in the "pale fire wyrms with arms and faces" found in the princess that visited Valyria! AND the dragon hatchling that looked like a worm and attacked the Targaryen baby! It seems all but confirmed that the Valyrians were engaged in magical genetic engineering, creating human-animal hybrids. This makes it much more likely that they did, in fact, create dragons. We hear more than once in Fire & Blood that wyverns look a lot like dragons (minus the fire breathing and they don't get as big), and we are reminded of the firewyrms multiple times. It seems these firewyrms would have been pale and white, since they lived underground and all of GRRM's animals living in darkness (as in the real world) are pale and white. So, here is our clear connection between Targaryens and pale white worms.
I will say I had tinfoiled up some lovely thoughts on Aerea Targaryen that have been blasted by F&B! But I am not 100% sold that Aerea made it to Valyria. I know that is the assumption that Septon Barth makes in his retelling, but we don't know if he was correct. I am inclined to think she didn't get to Valyria? Why would Balerion take her there? If he wanted to go home, he could have at any time in his life, but didn't. Any how, I am not convinced on that destination.
As to the Valyrian's perhaps creating dragons? Maybe? But I still think dragon's came from Asshai, long before Valyria existed. I do think something that happened in Valyria allowed an unnatural bond to form that allowed control of dragons. We get the idea from Jaehaerys, that he worried that anyone could control a dragon hatchling, so it makes me think he worried that his blood wasn't that special at all. So, why his insistence in marrying his sister, and having his own children marry? Something is off with all of that.
What we do have of the story of Aerea Targaryen and fire worms is interesting in the sense that our Arya Stark at times will dig worms, eat worms, and Lommy even calls her "Worm Breath". Worms pop up several times in Arya's story, in wormy apples and in the Kindly Man's eye socket! There is some tie with Aerea and Arya, and I am determined to figure it out!
I forgot that the trees at Highgarden are called the Three Singers! How fitting! It seems Garth the Gardener called the COTF by their own preferred name...
Perhaps Garth sewed those tree's with the help of the CotF, and it was the blood of three special "singers" that was part of the recipe?
Oh I see now. You're suggesting he visited the HOTU, left there, and sometime later he captured the warlocks. Sure, that could fit. I just don't know if it's necessary, since he also could have learned much and more in Asshai and Valyria (with F&B making it more likely, IMO, that he did truly visit Valyria. If a child could survive there for a year, why shouldn't Euron get away with a visit?).
I am not sure that Euron made it to Valyria. I think that might be a major lie he was telling. Even if he could survive there, could his crew? And again, I am not sure that Balerion and Aerea went to Valyria.
ETA: There is also the black river Ash in Asshai, and the Blackwater Rush next to King's Landing. I wonder where it got its name?
Nice! I actually really like the tie to the black river in Asshai, since I think the Stark's came from Asshai long, long ago! But the Blackwater rush is also interesting. Now, is there a different between still pools of black water and rushing rivers of black water?
Oooh I had not noticed this before! It would make sense for the Kings of Winter to symbolize their connection to the weirwoods they worshipped. A circle of 9 of them would have been the holiest site in the North, presumably, so why not model the crown after it?
I also like the idea of the 9 weirwoods each having a representative weirwood in the south. Though I don't know if it's really necessary, since it seems like the weirwoods are all connected, and sitting in the roots of one you can see through the eyes of all of them. I think there is definitely something special about that grove though; there must be a reason why in this particular place, 9 weirwoods were planted in a circle when usually we see them one at a time. What is the benefit of 9 weirwoods with faces over just one, if you're simply communicating with a greenseer/Old Gods? Maybe planting multiple weirwoods amplifies their power somehow, so you create a magical hotspot?
I can't seem to shake the idea of the KoW and the nine spikes on their crown being connected to that weirwood grove north of Castle Black. A grove that is special to Jon. Special to Samwell. It's important for some reason. I think there is something special in Arya being nine when this story starts, and in the fact that when she is at Harrenhal, Roose brings back the hides of nine dead wolves. Also, but perhaps not related to the Starks, that there are nine free cities. Could those nine cities in Essos be connected to a weirwood grove in Westeros?
I wonder what causes them to produce seeds? You're right, we never hear about it except in that Bran chapter, so they must not produce seeds often. Perhaps a blood sacrifice is required? (Aha - a new twist in the Jojen paste theory!)
Exactly! What if Jojen was the seed? I am even more curious about a weirwoods seed now. Perhaps it's not a tree seed, but the "seed" of a greenseer, which Howland might very well be! Jojen was Howlands "seed" sacrifice!!!
I don't know what to make of the Blackwoods. On the one hand, they seem very much associated with the Old Gods, but there are other signs as well. The name, for one. The fact they were kicked out of the North. What did they do? Not even the Boltons got kicked out, and they flayed the Stark kings and wore them as cloaks!!! If that doesn't get you kicked out of the North, what does?
It does make a person wonder what they did. Now, perhaps the old Stark's just were a different variety than the later ones who tolerated the Bolton's skinning their son's, but there is some element to the Blackwoods that are very mysterious.
I don't disagree that the Brackens are the more likely candidate to have killed the weirwood, and also are probably responsible for High Heart. But it would be more interesting if it had been the Blackwoods.
It almost would be a let down if it was the Bracken's who poisoned the tree. That is so expected! It would be interesting if the Blackwoods did it themselves, but what would be the motivation for such a thing? Maybe it was accidental? What if they feed their tree some blood they should not have?
What we also see from house Blackwood are multiple marriages to Targaryens, who are associated with fire. We know from the GOHH that the trees don't love fire, and fire magic won't work on High Heart. Yet the Blackwoods continue marrying the dragons, not other FM houses that keep to the Old Gods. (By contrast, we rarely see the Starks intermarrying with Targaryens or southerners in general.)
We have Aegon IV having bastards with a Blackwood, and Aegon V marrying a Blackwood, but that is it, isn't it? Not that much intermarriage, at all. We see more Targaryen marriages within the Vale or to the Baratheon's in the Stormlands than we do to riverland folk. The Stark's have two marriage's since the time of conquest to the Blackwoods, which seems like more than the Targaryen's. But I might be missing a marriage, I guess. Or perhaps I need to look outside the posted lineage charts.
Well the "pale stranger" comment immediately makes me think of the Stranger. Another association between weirwoods and death. It is pale because it hasn't had a blood meal in a while - but it's about to get one after Brienne kills her attackers!
While I do like the idea of the tree's being "pale" because they are anemic, I think the tree that Jon notes at Whitetree Village is also noted to have pale limbs, and it seems like it recently had some kind of meal, if the freshly burned bones in it's mouth are any indication. But the idea of a well fed tree perhaps not being so pale might be a clue to what is going on with the black tree's in Essos. Perhaps they are so well feed on blood that they are black with engorgement???
This again makes me think of the Blackwood family and how they earned their last name? If you feed a weirwood the right food, or an excess of food, would it turn black?
Not sure about the ones Arianne sees, but if nothing else her chapter confirms that they do grow wild and don't necessarily have to be planted. It still wouldn't surprise me if they grew in places where someone was killed and blood soaked into the ground.
I don't know about blood soaked ground. Perhaps just where a body might have once fallen. Or maybe it's not connected to blood? It seems like there are plenty of wild weirwoods in the wolfswood and in the haunted forest!
Oh very interesting, this had not occurred to me before. You're right, all the best lies contain a bit of truth. This makes me look at the other accused blood bathers in a new light. I had thought that, like Dany, they were innocent of any blood bathing .... but she really isn't. The blood bath was, of course, part of a blood magic ritual, so it's probably safe to assume that the other accused, such as Shiera Seastar, were engaging in blood magic as well.
I would be shocked to find out that Shiera Seastar was not using some type of blood magic. I am sure she learned the art from her mother.
Perhaps once I get through F&B, I will have some different thoughts than I do now! I will try to circle back, if that is the case.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Also, we're talking about the dead of winter, AFAIK. I really can't get a clear idea of just what happened in those frantic months. Can't wait til TWOW is published!
Honestly, I am not sure what season the early war was in. My gut tells me it was spring by then. Winter (although quite warm) at the time of the Harrenhal Tourney, but what season was it when Lyanna disappeared?
That's a good catch about the weirwood at Riverrun. Now we have three slender weirwoods in the South.
I am honestly not sure what is going on with this. The slender tree's seem different to me than some of the wider tree's. That is why I question if a greenseer could cause them to pop up where they need. Or it it just indicates a younger tree?
Also, Catelyn is really unreliable as a narrator much of the time. Shit, there are plenty of weirwoods in the south, and she tells us in her first chapter that they have all been cut down thousands of years ago. She claims to have traveled with her father, but she never knew about all these weirwoods? I can't tell if she is just as fluffy and full of denial and false memories as Lysa is? It's so frustrating!
Well, Harlequin-type ichthyosis is a real thing, without any recourse to dragons.
WARNING: do NOT search for images of this condition unless you have a strong stomach. If I saw a child in RL with this condition I'd be inclined to think in terms of the supernatural, even knowing it's a medical condition.
Interesting disease you mention. Certainly noted for a "scale" like appearance on the child at birth. And most of these children are born dead or don't live very long. Such a scale like appearance could certainly make people think of dragons or snakes.
And, yes, hard pictures to look at!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Exactly! The apple tree is not even dead (presumably, since it just produced fruit) and already its owner is planning to plant more. But the weirwood died and for a thousand years it didn't occur to anyone to plant another? Seems like it wasn't all that important to them, does it. Now, it may not be easy to find weirwood seeds, but we don't hear anything about the Blackwoods frantically searching for them either. Nor did they find a wild sapling and transplant it to their castle. It's a conspicuous lack of effort for a House that claims to worship the Old Gods and whose castle is named Raventree Hall.
Perhaps they don't want a new tree? Perhaps there is something special about their tree now that it doesn't produce leaves? I really want to peak into Storm's End to see what has become of the weirwood that Mel burned in the godswood there. I can't imagine it burned completely to ash. That would not be consistent with what fire does to tree's in forest fires, especially living trees and fresh wood. As a matter of fact, in Jon's thoughts, doesn't he think he would have to rip the weirwood tree at Winterfell out of the ground, then set fire to it? Is that what happened at Storm's End? Or does Jon just think that? Or does he have some knowledge we don't know about.
This is the passage I was thinking of:
You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods. ASOS-Jon XII
But earlier, what Mel tells Jon is this:
"Jon." Melisandre was so close he could feel the warmth of her breath. "R'hllor is the only true god. A vow sworn to a tree has no more power than one sworn to your shoes. Open your heart and let the light of the Lord come in. Burn these weirwoods, and accept Winterfell as a gift of the Lord of Light." ASOS-Jon XI
Nothing about ripping the tree out of the ground. So, where does that idea of Jon's come from?
Well I figured out where the name came from. This is from a Jaime chapter in ADWD:
Raventree Hall was old. Moss grew thick between its ancient stones, spiderwebbing up its walls like the veins in a crone’s legs. Two huge towers flanked the castle’s main gate, and smaller ones defended every angle of its walls. All were square. Drum towers and half-moons held up better against catapults, since thrown stones were more apt to deflect off a curved wall, but Raventree predated that particular bit of builder’s wisdom.
The castle dominated the broad fertile valley that maps and men alike called Blackwood Vale. A vale it was, beyond a doubt, but no wood had grown here for several thousand years, be it black or brown or green. Once, yes, but axes had long since cleared the trees away. Homes and mills and holdfasts had risen where once the oaks stood tall. The ground was bare and muddy, and dotted here and there with drifts of melting snow. Inside the castle walls, however, a bit of the forest still remained. House Blackwood kept the old gods, and worshiped as the First Men had in the days before the Andals came to Westeros. Some of the trees in their godswood were said to be as old as Raventree’s square towers, especially the heart tree, a weirwood of colossal size whose upper branches could be seen from leagues away, like bony fingers scratching at the sky.
How convenient that the trees that gave the vale the name "blackwood" are all gone. It sure sounds like they would have had black wood though... so they were either Shade trees or ebony. Both are very valuable so it's strange that they were cut down to the last one.
Do you think the Blackwoods changed their name after they were banished to the riverlands? Because Blackwood Vale is in the Riverlands, correct? Because I just always assumed that Blackwood was their name while they were in the north, too. So, if they had a different family name, what was it? Is it one of the names that we are told is extinct now, such as Frost, Amber, Towers or Greenwood? Greenwood would be interesting, maybe. The Greenwoods were banished from the north (in the wolfswood), but rose again as Blackwoods in the south? Or did Blackwood Vale earn it's name after the Blackwoods settled/claimed it?
I think I may have found one, though it's not super direct. Here is this quote from TWOIAF:
Though considered disreputable in this, our present day, a fragment of Septon Barth’s Unnatural History has proved a source of controversy in the halls of the Citadel. Claiming to have consulted with texts said to be preserved at Castle Black, Septon Barth put forth thatthe children of the forest could speak with ravens and could make them repeat their words. According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed, in degraded form, down to the maesters today, who no longer know how to speak to the birds.
Unnatural History is the abbreviated name of Barth's famous book Dragons, Wyrms and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History. We learned in FAB that he was inspired to write this book after what happened to Aerea, and that the book examines the origins of dragons, coming to the apparent conclusion that Valyrians created them (along with their own magical abilities) using blood magic and the combining of different species. Again, the focus (also reflected in the book's name) is Valyria and the birth of dragons.
Which begs the question: why is he consulting texts at Castle Black, and why is he discussing the COTF and the skinchanging of ravens in a book about dragons???
I have always resisted theories linking the COTF/greenseers to Valyrians or other Essosi cultures (such as Faceless Men), but I am starting to wonder if there isn't a link after all. We get other hints in TWOIAF as well:
This is not to say that the greenseers did not know lost arts that belong to the higher mysteries, such as seeing events at a great distance or communicating across half a realm (as the Valyrians, who came long after them, did).
I would note here that Valyrians did this via glass candles, made of obsidian - which of course is also a favorite material used by the COTF.
If indeed this first fortress is Valyrian, it suggests that the dragonlords came to Westeros thousands of years before they carved out their outpost on Dragonstone, long before the coming of the Andals, or even the First Men. If so, did they come seeking trade? Were they slavers, mayhaps seeking after giants? Did they seek to learn the magic of the children of the forest, with their greenseers and their weirwoods? Or was there some darker purpose?
Such questions abound even to this day. Before the Doom of Valyria, maesters and archmaesters oft traveled to the Freehold in search of answers, but none were ever found. Septon Barth’s claim that the Valyrians came to Westeros because their priests prophesied that the Doom of Man would come out of the land beyond the narrow sea can safely be dismissed as nonsense, as can many of Barth’s queerer beliefs and suppositions.
I guess it's the same book, the subtitle makes it seem likely that the book on dragons is the same book that Tyrion refers to as Unnatural History. I can't explain why a book on dragons needs to be researched at Castle Black or talks about communication with raves. These are very good questions that you are raising? However, it's possible that Castle Black was known for old texts, and going through text's in search of old information (we have Serwyn of the Mirror Shield and perhaps he ties to Castle Black or the Night's Watch in some way), we also have the name Sea Dragon Point in the north that hints at Dragons, and Battle Isle in the Reach with hints at Dragons in Westeros long before the Valyrian empire, so perhaps Barth was just combing though the oldest text he could find, looking for answers.
Well, perhaps the dragonlords came to find out how to control the dragons they had. They needed to understand how the CotF controlled and spoke to ravens to be able to control and "speak" to their dragons. Perhaps that is where the blood magic with Valyria started, in the way they learned to control their dragons. And perhaps they found that special blood was needed, and once they had that in their genes, that is where the incest took hold. Once they had the genetic's they needed to control the dragons, they needed to keep it in their blood?
I really want to know what was in those books that was so bad that Baelor ordered them all destroyed. Baelor seemed to have a dislike of the incest in his family, and fought against it and what must have been a mighty attraction to his sisters! And why was his elder brother Daeron not married to one of his sisters? I know he died young, but Baelor and Daena were married young, in the reign of Daeron, I think. Why Baelor and not Daeron???? Maybe I have the timeline messed up. I guess this will come in F&B part II
I find it interesting that Jaehaerys felt it was important to marry his sister and then have his children marry each other, while Baelor fought hard against the marriage to his sister or having children with her. One man loved and appreciated Septon Barth's work, while the other reviled and destroyed his work. I think incest plays a large role in what Barth uncovered. So, did it play a roll for the CotF? And for the First Men, as well, who probably adopted customs from the CotF, as well as their worship and perhaps control of creatures? At this point, if Jon doesn't turn out to be a product of Starkcest, I am going to be SHOCKED!!!
I know there is some discussion later on this page about Jaehaerys and his Exceptionalism idea's, on why only Targaryen's could marry their sisters. There is something to that concept that we are missing. No doubt, Jaehaerys knew something that he didn't want to reveal, something that was important to the strength of the Targaryen line. He wanted to preserve it. I think Baelor knew what it was too, but he wanted to do anything he could not to promote it! I think the key is in Septon Barth's writings! I think it was Nyx who mentioned this Exceptionalism idea, but I am going to have to think on it a bit, and with a fresh head before I address it.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.