shymaid, i have been thinking that Doran is half Targaryen lately. that thread i read with him and Rhaegar wearing the same colore and the fire and blood comment to Arianne. he was born in 247 so who could be his father . Maegor was an infant in 233 so would be 14 or 15 and the POTD was rumored to be a mistress of Aerys and his father too so maybe she started earlier . Wasn't Aerion married to a Dayne or his mother was one right? So maegor could have been sent to Dorne by EGG ?
shymaid , i have been thinking that Doran is half Targaryen lately. that thread i read with him and Rhaegar wearing the same colore and the fire and blood comment to Arianne. he was born in 247 so who could be his father . Maegor was an infant in 233 so would be 14 or 15 and the POTD was rumored to be a mistress of Aerys and his father too so maybe she started earlier . Wasn't Aerion married to a Dayne or his mother was one right? So maegor could have been sent to Dorne by EGG ?
POTD? Is that an acronym for Princess of Dorne? If so, wouldn't it be PoD? (Sorry, I'm not always the best with these...)
Anyway, I seriously doubt Doran is half Targaryen. Maegor's grandmother was a Dayne, but a) I don't see why he would be sent off to Starfall, b) I don't see the Daynes marrying into the Martells at this point in time (there doesn't seem to be a good relationship between those houses now), and c) Doran isn't anywhere close to being pro-Targaryen or pro-dragon!
Where is those rumors of her being a mistress of Aerys and his father? I need quotes and/or links, or else it's hard to know what you're talking about. It's a huge story and I don't have everything nailed down in my head.
Finally got around to watching this video! I do appreciate the time that it seems they put into research. On another thread, my thoughts were thus in response to questioning Doran's gout.
Well, they compare Doran's gout with real life gout (medical reports, asks a doctor they know, and one who has gout himself), and raises some good points. It doesn't really hold up when you take a look.
I still haven't watched the video but in my experience, gout is rarely ever a singular medical problem affecting a person. Usually there are other significant health problems that tie together. I have not given Doran's gout much of a thought but when first reading his character years ago, I tied his medical problems to those that are said to have affected Henry VIII of England in his later life. Gout is blamed for many of his problems but that is certainly not his only medical problem. Obesity, head injuries, lack of physical exercise r/t physical injuries and what seems like congestive heart failure, all probably played a role in his declining health. I guess I thought of Doran like H8. Doran's bandaged, swollen legs has always seemed more like heart failure and tissue inflammation to me or even a undiagnosed rhuematic disorder, but gout can still affect the joints of these people. I have seen slender and fit people suffer from gout as well as over-weight people burdened by other health problems, some of it depends on diet but some of it depends on genetics and the production of uric acid. I so find history's medical diagnosis/treatment interesting when compared to modern medical knowledge and ability. It's hard to compare the two with much fairness, since treatments and knowledge are so different over the span of time. Still, it's possible that GRRM is trying to use Doran to pull a fast one on his readers! Since I personally question so much in the story, it seems perfectly normal for people to question Doran's health in detail.
None of my opinion really matters, I just thought it would be easier to have discussion about the video all in one location.
I usually try to post some feedback to their video's, as I think they put a lot of time and effort into their work, and I think they do appreciate opinions. My response to the OotGH was this:
I have always considered Doran's gout as a nod to the gout that Henry VIII was said to have suffered later in his life. H8 was once active and viral and was later considered somewhat crippled because of his health. Some of H8's medical problems could be misdiagnosed based on medicatl knowledge at that time of history, and so it's hard to look at our knowledge of gout today and what is described as gout 500 years ago. Gout itself is not deadly, although it can cause side effects that could effect quality of life and lead to eventual infections or shut down of kidney's, if r/t uric acid kidney stones. Having been a registered nurse for 12 years, I have seen gout in all many stages and many joints. Yes, painful, but I will say that an acute flair is different than a person who suffers chronic effects. In most cases of pain, acute pain is much more difficult to tolerate, while chronic pain is easier to tolerate because people adjust to it. That might sound crazy, but it's the case, as far as I have seen in my years of practice. Doran might have felt his first flairs in a much different way than he currently does, based on years of tolerance. BTW, I hope your brother is taking medications to lessen the uric acid in his body, and also watching his diet. Food is a large trigger for gout. I think that might be an interesting way to look at Doran's gout, does he eat a high fat, rich diet that would contribute to his gout? Rich meats, red meats, shellfish, pasta, etc are all contributors to gout! Some if the best foods, in my opinion!
The tophi that you describe could dislocate a joint, but might not, either. Also, the area of redness and swelling around a tophus could be much bigger than the actual tophus. We are also basing some of these descriptions on unreliable narrators, who might be more grossed out and inflating what they see in relation to their effect. Often I have looked at infections to wounds that people nearly puke to look at, but medically, those site infections could be much, much worse, and I just shrug at them. Yup, you need some Keflex!
However, I will agree that currently, people who suffer from gout are usually taking medications that have only been developed within the last hundred years or so, so in our current medical practice, I have never seen gout to the extent that GRRM describes it in Doran. It would be painful! But if you are focused on revenge, could you set aside some pain to work on your goal of vengeance? I think so. Could Doran be lying and trying to pull a fast one, absolutely, but I am not sure that he is lying about the gout.
When comparing Doran to Illyrio's physical description, I find there is much more to doubt in Illyrio pulling a fast one. But GRRM could be playing the same game with both characters, but to me, that seems a bit melodramatic and overdone. Perhaps Illyrio is the real deal while Doran is the fake!
I would also have to say I think you have put more research into gout that GRRM ever has, and I applaud you for that. Some how I picture him doing research with a 30 year old set of encyclopedia's instead of the internet, then typing on his ancient computer using only the index fingers of each hand! I could be wrong, certainly! Another thing to consider is that we get the majority of descriptions of Doran's illness not only through unreliable narrator's, but when GRRM was most likely lost in his own plot and story. He is still lost, I think.
I think the video raises some interesting questions, and points out some possible anomalies to consider when looking at Doran. He might very well be able in the process of fooling everyone around him, even Areo who he see's daily, and his own daughter. Doran certainly seems driven, although I am not sure if he is seeking vengeance for his sister's murder, freedom for Dorne, or the Iron Throne for himself. That is my biggest issue with Doran, he is unclear to me and so are his motives!
I also think some of those questions and anomalies might be r/t GRRM not having as much knowledge on gout as we think he does. And honestly, he doesn't even really need to, because he can just say, this is fiction and fantasy, it's my world and I can make something be whatever I want it to.
This is how I look at GRRM's descriptions of swords in this story. Long sword, bastard sword, great sword, etc! His definitions (and he gives them to us in great detail) don't necessarily fit what sword experts would acknowledge in the real world, now or in history. In the end, the only thing that matters is what GRRM says is so in his world. So, perhaps in GRRM's world, Doran has painful and debilitating gout but can still manage to stand occasionally and fiddle with a cyvasse piece with more dexterity than seems possible. However, as I am in a question everything mode these days, I say why not look closely at these questions that we have. I am just starting another Feast reread, so I will be paying more attention to Doran!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Gout is blamed for many of his problems but that is certainly not his only medical problem.
I'm far from any expert on Henry VIII's health. What I have read and seen of speculations on his health over the years, gout has not been one of them. But I could most definitely have missed that one. I get your point on it being a more complicated medical problem, though.
Doran's bandaged, swollen legs has always seemed more like heart failure and tissue inflammation to me or even a undiagnosed rhuematic disorder, but gout can still affect the joints of these people. I have seen slender and fit people suffer from gout as well as over-weight people burdened by other health problems, some of it depends on diet but some of it depends on genetics and the production of uric acid. I so find history's medical diagnosis/treatment interesting when compared to modern medical knowledge and ability. It's hard to compare the two with much fairness, since treatments and knowledge are so different over the span of time.
Of course Doran could have other and/or misdiagnosed health problems that lies behind what we see. On the other hand, we get hit over the head with descriptions of his joints and his pain and the gout. That makes me very suspicious.
In most cases of pain, acute pain is much more difficult to tolerate, while chronic pain is easier to tolerate because people adjust to it. That might sound crazy, but it's the case, as far as I have seen in my years of practice.
The ability to adjust to pain is remarkable! I keep that in mind with Doran.
I would also have to say I think you have put more research into gout that GRRM ever has, and I applaud you for that. Some how I picture him doing research with a 30 year old set of encyclopedia's instead of the internet, then typing on his ancient computer using only the index fingers of each hand! I could be wrong, certainly! Another thing to consider is that we get the majority of descriptions of Doran's illness not only through unreliable narrator's, but when GRRM was most likely lost in his own plot and story. He is still lost, I think.
I also think some of those questions and anomalies might be r/t GRRM not having as much knowledge on gout as we think he does. And honestly, he doesn't even really need to, because he can just say, this is fiction and fantasy, it's my world and I can make something be whatever I want it to.
Well, we might indeed look more into things than Martin does, however I doubt he would place so much emphasis on something he hadn't researched at least to a certain degree. The descriptions seems too detailed for that to me.
And my impression of Martin is that even with fantacy, he tries to keep it somewhat realistic. With a tweek here and there, of course. With something like a real medical condition that can be researched, I'd think he'd keep it fairly accurate. (For a layman.)
I think the video raises some interesting questions, and points out some possible anomalies to consider when looking at Doran. He might very well be able in the process of fooling everyone around him, even Areo who he see's daily, and his own daughter. Doran certainly seems driven, although I am not sure if he is seeking vengeance for his sister's murder, freedom for Dorne, or the Iron Throne for himself. That is my biggest issue with Doran, he is unclear to me and so are his motives!
It's the questions and possible anomalies I find interesting, more than speculating to what extent Martin has researched something or not (you'd have to ask him about that).
And I agree that Doran is very mysterious, what he's really doing and what his motives are. I lean to them being much darker than at first glance, so not revenge over his sister, nor a Roynish restoration is really satisfying.
This plot reminds me of Aemon's statement to Sam: "the sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler". So when Doran describes himself as the grass that hides the viper (Oberyn) I find it hard to believe him. Everyone knew how dangerous Oberyn could be, so he's like a brightly colored viper that announces his presence and the danger he poses. Doran, on the other hand, seems more like a well camouflaged viper to me, like a rattlesnake or something. One you do not see until you step on it.
This is how I look at GRRM's descriptions of swords in this story. Long sword, bastard sword, great sword, etc! His definitions (and he gives them to us in great detail) don't necessarily fit what sword experts would acknowledge in the real world, now or in history. In the end, the only thing that matters is what GRRM says is so in his world. So, perhaps in GRRM's world, Doran has painful and debilitating gout but can still manage to stand occasionally and fiddle with a cyvasse piece with more dexterity than seems possible. However, as I am in a question everything mode these days, I say why not look closely at these questions that we have. I am just starting another Feast reread, so I will be paying more attention to Doran!
It's the cyvasse piece in particular that makes me suspicious. If it had just been him standing on shaking legs, I'd say no. As his tolerance to pain would probably be very high at this point. His grapes are way to nimble to me, so if Martin takes this in "this is my fantacy world" direction, I will be very very disappointed due to his generally quite accurate world. So I hope he does not go in that direction.
Oh, and by the very off-topic way! I've posted that breakdown of the scene with Catelyn and Jaime, here. I forgot to tag you. Fair warning, it's a bit of a wall. And I've not reread any of the other Jaime chapters as of yet. My reading is very slow these days, and my writing even slower... I'm more on the simmering stage.
I'm far from any expert on Henry VIII's health. What I have read and seen of speculations on his health over the years, gout has not been one of them. But I could most definitely have missed that one. I get your point on it being a more complicated medical problem, though.
I believe that H8's gout attacks over the years are one of the reasons it is known as the "disease of kings". It is also known as "rich man's disease" based on the idea that most people that suffered from gout were wealthy and could eat rich, fatty foods, and drink wine and beer in excess, things that were thought to encourage gout attacks. Of course, in truth, gout attacks people of all social status' but the nickname remains attached to the disease.
Of course Doran could have other and/or misdiagnosed health problems that lies behind what we see. On the other hand, we get hit over the head with descriptions of his joints and his pain and the gout. That makes me very suspicious.
Well, GRRM is a detail oriented writer. That is why we get such fabulous (over the top, sometimes) descriptions of feasts and meals and clothing and armor. Certainly, his details might be trying to tell us something, but GRRM seems like he favor's more subtle hints, and not overt ones! That is one of the reasons that RLJ seems TOO obvious to me. I would say that every time GRRM describes eating "unborn puppies on a stick" that I feel hit over the head as well. Perhaps he is trying to tell us something more than the people of Essos have some bizarre eating interests! Maybe it has some thing to do with the killing of unborn Starks???
Well, we might indeed look more into things than Martin does, however I doubt he would place so much emphasis on something he hadn't researched at least to a certain degree. The descriptions seems too detailed for that to me.
Some might argue that GRRM has over-detailed both Feast and Dance in ways he didn't allow himself to do with his first three novels. His editing pencil was missing in the last two books, and they sometimes feel bogged down in detail. A man in love with the world and story he has created, and perhaps a bit lost in it. Again, I will say that while GRRM does like details, he has said he uses details to establish reality in his story, it is his more subtle clues that I think are important. Time will tell, hopefully ...
And my impression of Martin is that even with fantacy, he tries to keep it somewhat realistic. With a tweek here and there, of course. With something like a real medical condition that can be researched, I'd think he'd keep it fairly accurate. (For a layman.)
You don't think his description of Doran's disease being gout are accurate to the disease?
It's the questions and possible anomalies I find interesting, more than speculating to what extent Martin has researched something or not (you'd have to ask him about that).
And I agree that Doran is very mysterious, what he's really doing and what his motives are. I lean to them being much darker than at first glance, so not revenge over his sister, nor a Roynish restoration is really satisfying.
This plot reminds me of Aemon's statement to Sam: "the sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler". So when Doran describes himself as the grass that hides the viper (Oberyn) I find it hard to believe him. Everyone knew how dangerous Oberyn could be, so he's like a brightly colored viper that announces his presence and the danger he poses. Doran, on the other hand, seems more like a well camouflaged viper to me, like a rattlesnake or something. One you do not see until you step on it.
I am a bit confused, I guess. In the first comment, you seem to think that Doran is much darker and mysterious than he claims, but then in the second comment, you say you find it hard to believe that Doran is the grass that hides the viper. Then you say that Doran is a more well camouflaged viper than Oberyn. He's not the grass hiding the viper, he is a viper himself? Perhaps!
I will say that this comment is to his nieces is a warning to them that they needs to back down. Is it a real threat or is it only words? Doran claims that he "let" Oberyn go to King's Landing, so I would say that Oberyn did respect (or perhaps fear) his elder brother. As to the grass hiding the viper, Doran is clearly trying to manipulate his nieces, and he does a pretty good job of it. They back down from their plans, agree to wait a bit, or follow different orders from Doran.
In the Captain of the Guards chapter there are two incidents that make me think that Doran is unsure of his own power, and if people are afraid of him. First of all, when Tyene speaks with Doran alone in the throne room. She raises a hand toward Doran, and Areo reacts by asking her to back away from the dais, and then when she asks for Doran's favor and bows her head, initiating that she wants him to touch her head, and he hesitates before doing so, Doran, Areo and the Maester are all seem afraid that Tyene has some how attempted to poison Doran. The maester inspects Doran's hands after this, looking for signs of injury or foul play. That is not the action that someone does to someone they fear, and the fact that three men suspect her of even thinking of such a thing, indicates to me that Doran and his loyal people, feel he might not inspire true fear in his subjects, or even respect from his family.
The other thing that strikes me as unsure in Doran's actions are when he is deciding to round up the Sand Snakes and imprison them, he asks Areo "how loyal are my guards". Of course, Doran has plans to use these "loyal" guards to round up his nieces, but he is unsure if they will carry out those orders. Areo Hotah then claims that he will take the head of any guard who is disloyal to Doran. So, again, Doran seems unsure of his true power. Is this the action of a man who has a deep and dark plot going on, one that includes faking an illness to fool people about his strength? A man who isn't even sure if he inspires loyalty in his personal guards?
It's the cyvasse piece in particular that makes me suspicious. If it had just been him standing on shaking legs, I'd say no. As his tolerance to pain would probably be very high at this point. His grapes are way to nimble to me, so if Martin takes this in "this is my fantacy world" direction, I will be very very disappointed due to his generally quite accurate world. So I hope he does not go in that direction.
People can adapt. My great grandmother had terrible rheumatoid arthritis, non unlike gout in symptoms, and her hands especially were almost deformed from the arthritis (fingertips and joints pointing in the wrong directions type of bad) and while in her later years she had troubles with buttons (but she could manage snaps), she could still make a pie from scratch, handle all the ingredient bottles well enough, and roll out a pie crust. She could still dress and bath herself, although it was a slow process. I don't think that Doran holding a cyvasse piece makes GRRM a disappointing writer. It's possible the cyvasse piece is to later connect our minds to Young Griff, and that was how GRRM chose to bring our attention to it. "Toying" with the cyvasse piece is what Arianne thinks, and "turning it in his hands". I am not sure that takes the dexterity that people might think, and it's not like we just witnessed him shuffling a deck of cards. Also, how big is this cyvasse piece? Is it tiny or large? That could also make a difference to ability and action. Toying could be defined as moving something absentmindedly, nervously or casually, amusing oneself. Perhaps he is spinning in around on the tip of his finger or juggling it from finger to finger, perhaps he is not. It's an interesting word choice, but in my opinion, it's as vague as much of GRRM's writing is. Maybe it means something, maybe it doesn't! I certainly don't think it hurts to investigate, but personally this just doesn't bleep on my radar.
Doran can also seem to open and read a letter using those hands, and no one seems to think that is odd. Perhaps I have just seen enough people adapt to physical limitations that I think this is possible. My experience is of course different from any one else's, because no two people can ever have the exact same experiences.
Having just reread The Captain of Guards chapter from Areo's POV in my Feast reread, some of these details are very fresh in my mind. Something that stood out to me on several occasions is how both Doran and Areo use the term "howl" to describe unrest in their own population. "The common folk will howl" and "all of Dorne will howl" and then a reference to loyalty to Twyin. I find that howling detail interesting, as I often associate it with wolves or the Starks. But that of course, has nothing to do with gout... Perhaps this has something to do with a potential nationwide feeling in regards to the actions of the Red Wedding.
Now, perhaps Doran is faking his symptoms, or at least inflating them. I can see doing this in front of the Sand Snakes, and even the Maester, but what is the benefit in front of Areo Hotah? The man is a soldier who is obviously loyal to Doran, and he doesn't strike me as a person who is going to go around the palace talking about how Doran's symptoms are not as bad as he claims. It just doesn't seem Areo's way. So, what is the benefit to Doran to wince and cry out in pain with only his loyal guard to witness?
Now, it's possible that Doran doesn't trust Areo Hotah, and several of these comments are to either fool or manipulate Areo? But what role could Areo Hotah play in taking down Doran or his plan that he needs to fear his captain of the guards?
Oh, and by the very off-topic way! I've posted that breakdown of the scene with Catelyn and Jaime, here. I forgot to tag you. Fair warning, it's a bit of a wall. And I've not reread any of the other Jaime chapters as of yet. My reading is very slow these days, and my writing even slower... I'm more on the simmering stage.
I will have to check it out. Thanks!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
It's the cyvasse piece in particular that makes me suspicious. If it had just been him standing on shaking legs, I'd say no. As his tolerance to pain would probably be very high at this point. His grapes are way to nimble to me, so if Martin takes this in "this is my fantacy world" direction, I will be very very disappointed due to his generally quite accurate world. So I hope he does not go in that direction.
If you are interested in Cyvasse and some deep theorizing might I recommend this.
Well, GRRM is a detail oriented writer. That is why we get such fabulous (over the top, sometimes) descriptions of feasts and meals and clothing and armor. Certainly, his details might be trying to tell us something, but GRRM seems like he favor's more subtle hints, and not overt ones! That is one of the reasons that RLJ seems TOO obvious to me. I would say that every time GRRM describes eating "unborn puppies on a stick" that I feel hit over the head as well. Perhaps he is trying to tell us something more than the people of Essos have some bizarre eating interests! Maybe it has some thing to do with the killing of unborn Starks???
His feasts tend to read like "bla-bla-bla" to me, but then I tend to eat to live instead of live to eat. I do think this video makes an interesting point with how other people react to seeing his swollen joints.
You don't think his description of Doran's disease being gout are accurate to the disease?
From this video it seems like it is, which makes me think he did research and not make up some superduper-fantacy-gout. I'd only heard of the usual painful big toe related to gout, so looking into this is/was on my list. As Dorne is close to or at the bottom of my reading list, I haven't gotten to that yet. What the order does here is pointing to some things I found odd in my readings of these chapters. This might be nothing or it could be something, I haven't decided yet. Just found it an interesting line of thought, and wanted to share.
I am a bit confused, I guess. In the first comment, you seem to think that Doran is much darker and mysterious than he claims, but then in the second comment, you say you find it hard to believe that Doran is the grass that hides the viper. Then you say that Doran is a more well camouflaged viper than Oberyn. He's not the grass hiding the viper, he is a viper himself? Perhaps!
It's not something I've formulated well in my head yet, but I basically don't see how Doran was "hiding" Oberyn in any way. He was too infamous for that by far. What he got up to in exile is another matter, but Doran isn't hiding that. If this was a strategy he used, I'd say either Doran himself is the snake, or the snake is someone else. Mayhaps "the most dangerous man in Dorne" or something like that. Just some of the thoughts I'm toying with.
I will say that this comment is to his nieces is a warning to them that they needs to back down. Is it a real threat or is it only words? Doran claims that he "let" Oberyn go to King's Landing, so I would say that Oberyn did respect (or perhaps fear) his elder brother. As to the grass hiding the viper, Doran is clearly trying to manipulate his nieces, and he does a pretty good job of it. They back down from their plans, agree to wait a bit, or follow different orders from Doran.
Agreed. And I will say that Doran is very manipulative in general, hence I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth.
In the Captain of the Guards chapter there are two incidents that make me think that Doran is unsure of his own power, and if people are afraid of him. First of all, when Tyene speaks with Doran alone in the throne room. She raises a hand toward Doran, and Areo reacts by asking her to back away from the dais, and then when she asks for Doran's favor and bows her head, initiating that she wants him to touch her head, and he hesitates before doing so, Doran, Areo and the Maester are all seem afraid that Tyene has some how attempted to poison Doran. The maester inspects Doran's hands after this, looking for signs of injury or foul play. That is not the action that someone does to someone they fear, and the fact that three men suspect her of even thinking of such a thing, indicates to me that Doran and his loyal people, feel he might not inspire true fear in his subjects, or even respect from his family.
The other thing that strikes me as unsure in Doran's actions are when he is deciding to round up the Sand Snakes and imprison them, he asks Areo "how loyal are my guards". Of course, Doran has plans to use these "loyal" guards to round up his nieces, but he is unsure if they will carry out those orders. Areo Hotah then claims that he will take the head of any guard who is disloyal to Doran. So, again, Doran seems unsure of his true power. Is this the action of a man who has a deep and dark plot going on, one that includes faking an illness to fool people about his strength? A man who isn't even sure if he inspires loyalty in his personal guards?
Yes, with the exception of the Oakheart chapter, all our POVs in Dorne makes Doran seem weak. That is the surface level.
People can adapt. My great grandmother had terrible rheumatoid arthritis, non unlike gout in symptoms, and her hands especially were almost deformed from the arthritis (fingertips and joints pointing in the wrong directions type of bad) and while in her later years she had troubles with buttons (but she could manage snaps), she could still make a pie from scratch, handle all the ingredient bottles well enough, and roll out a pie crust. She could still dress and bath herself, although it was a slow process. I don't think that Doran holding a cyvasse piece makes GRRM a disappointing writer. It's possible the cyvasse piece is to later connect our minds to Young Griff, and that was how GRRM chose to bring our attention to it. "Toying" with the cyvasse piece is what Arianne thinks, and "turning it in his hands". I am not sure that takes the dexterity that people might think, and it's not like we just witnessed him shuffling a deck of cards. Also, how big is this cyvasse piece? Is it tiny or large? That could also make a difference to ability and action. Toying could be defined as moving something absentmindedly, nervously or casually, amusing oneself. Perhaps he is spinning in around on the tip of his finger or juggling it from finger to finger, perhaps he is not. It's an interesting word choice, but in my opinion, it's as vague as much of GRRM's writing is. Maybe it means something, maybe it doesn't! I certainly don't think it hurts to investigate, but personally this just doesn't bleep on my radar.
Sounds like your great grandmother kept her hands busy. Adaptation usually takes effort, as far as I know. Doran spends much and more time in his chair all day, watching naked children...
I certainly might read that part wrong, still my thoughts go to nimble grapes non the less.
Doran can also seem to open and read a letter using those hands, and no one seems to think that is odd. Perhaps I have just seen enough people adapt to physical limitations that I think this is possible. My experience is of course different from any one else's, because no two people can ever have the exact same experiences.
Is breaking a seal and unrolling a piece of paper difficult? And who writes his letters? Is he able to write?
Now, perhaps Doran is faking his symptoms, or at least inflating them. I can see doing this in front of the Sand Snakes, and even the Maester, but what is the benefit in front of Areo Hotah? The man is a soldier who is obviously loyal to Doran, and he doesn't strike me as a person who is going to go around the palace talking about how Doran's symptoms are not as bad as he claims. It just doesn't seem Areo's way. So, what is the benefit to Doran to wince and cry out in pain with only his loyal guard to witness?
Now, it's possible that Doran doesn't trust Areo Hotah, and several of these comments are to either fool or manipulate Areo? But what role could Areo Hotah play in taking down Doran or his plan that he needs to fear his captain of the guards?
Anyone can slip things without realizing it, either direct or indirect, or something of the sort; even a slave soldier. Areo is not the sharpest knife in the box. It could make him more loyal to Doran, perhaps. Or make him be more on his toes that he would have been if he knew it was all an act, and so make it more convincing. Even though it seems like Areo is on duty all day every day, he still isn't in his inner circle. Closer than many others, but not all the way in I'd say.
I do think this video makes an interesting point with how other people react to seeing his swollen joints.
I suppose some of my thoughts on that are based on personal experience. I have seen people nearly pass out from looking at a tiny laceration, or gasp and gag when they see a little blood, and there are other's who look at flesh layed open and see bone and tendon and all they say is "that's so cool". So, when we get Areo or Arianne's views, I have to take that with a grain of salt. What kind of person are they in regards to this? Some humans can't stand to see anything out side of "normal", while other's accept variation in the body. I honestly can't say that GRRM is trying to make a point by this or not, but it doesn't trip my radar. But perhaps my personal radar is broken, or to busy searching out "Dawn breaking" and hints at dragon blood in the Stark's and Lannister's to pick up blip's on other things!
His feasts tend to read like "bla-bla-bla" to me, but then I tend to eat to live instead of live to eat.
I haven't looked into the descriptions of food a whole lot, but I do think he hides hints and details in what sometimes people think is boring or superfluous detail. I find a lot of interesting hints in the names of ships and boats in this story, and I think it's possible he is hiding information in the food descriptions, too!
And I will say that Doran is very manipulative in general, hence I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth.
The best lies need to be seasoned with some truths, which is why I think Littlefinger is so successful! I think there is interesting truth's in every character's story, if you are willing to look past what you don't like about them. Catelyn's character is much like this, I think.
Adaptation usually takes effort, as far as I know. Doran spends much and more time in his chair all day, watching naked children...
Well, he either is an invalid who reacts under great duress only, or he is a sneaky snake that is probably performing hot yoga behind closed door's and plotting how he can sit his butt on the Iron Throne! I don't see how it could be both.
Is breaking a seal and unrolling a piece of paper difficult? And who writes his letters? Is he able to write?
I don't know as I have never had to open a letter such as that. As to his ability to write, he must be able to if he is capable of plotting great things, because it doesn't seem likely that Areo is helping him out. Perhaps a septon or maester writes for him, but I would think he is capable. I guess we will have to wait for more books to find out that, if it's ever addressed.
Again, I think some of knuckles the size of cherries and grossly deformed descriptions might be related to Areo Hotah being unreliable and just grossed out by anything less than normal. Doran might have some swelling but still manages, like many people in the world do, while not being nearly as dire as Areo Hotah tells us. Most people adapt to their limitations as best they can!
Anyone can slip things without realizing it, either direct or indirect, or something of the sort; even a slave soldier. Areo is not the sharpest knife in the box. It could make him more loyal to Doran, perhaps. Or make him be more on his toes that he would have been if he knew it was all an act, and so make it more convincing. Even though it seems like Areo is on duty all day every day, he still isn't in his inner circle. Closer than many others, but not all the way in I'd say.
Sure. Areo reminds me a bit of Barristan the Bold. A warrior, a soldier but not a politician. And while I don't think it's fair to say he is dumb, he certainly might not be capable of plotting intrigue. So mistakes could easily be made. I would think that Doran doesn't probably trust many people, but he would still need to have a few helpers, I would think. Which means that Areo should note other people that Doran spends time with, but don't hear of anyone. Perhaps Sunspear and the Water Garden's have secret passages like the Red Keep? What Doran does after Areo has left him for the night could be quite a lot of things, I suppose!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
