Post by stdaga on Oct 17, 2018 20:07:38 GMT
It's been a little while since we have had a new thread, so I will try to touch on a few things that I see in this chapter.
A Stark presence in the Eyrie? When looking at the Eyrie, I often think of Ned and Robert growing up here, or at least spending several of their formative years in this place, but in this chapter, from Catelyn's POV, we have not one mention of Ned. In Cat's assent to the Eyrie, Ned is mentioned several times, and so is Jon. But neither have a place in her thoughts here, but I see hints at two other Stark's in this chapter. And since we are looking at parentage soup, I wonder if these two Stark's have something to show us about parentage of an important character. After all, this chapter is a reaction to Bran discovering Jaime and Cersei's sibling incest and Bran's subsequent nearly fatal fall which in turn caused Cat to take Tyrion captive which in turn is leading to this farce of a trial that Lysa has allowed to happen.
So, I think the concept of sibling incest does hang over this chapter, more obviously in regards to Jaime and Cersei, but perhaps to the idea of Starkcest, as well.
We get a little look at the courtyard that was intended to be a godswood but cannot support the growth of a tree, so instead the courtyard is planted with grass and blue flowers. Blue roses seem to be a hint to us of Lyanna, or at least a Stark maid, in our story. Winter roses are a pale blue color, and though these blue flowers are only vaguely described by Catelyn with no real detail, I can't help but think of the blue flower in Dany's HotUD visions as connecting to blue roses or blue flowers and therefore Lyanna Stark. Honestly, we don't really know that she loved blue roses or winter roses, all Ned tells us is that she was "fond of flowers" which also can be interpreted in multiple ways, but in this case, I am looking at Lyanna when it comes to these blue flowers in the Eyrie's courtyard/godswood-with-no-wood.
I also find it interesting that these blue flowers are ringed by tall white towers. I had earlier questioned if the white towers of the Eyrie were not built in some way to mimic a weirwood grove, but there is also a strong element of these towers reminding me of the kingsguard. Tall white towers guarding the terrain, while tall white knights are noted for guarding a king or person in the royal family. If the blue flowers are representations of Lyanna, do the white towers (and we are told in a previous chapter there are seven towers in the Eyrie, thrust like daggers into the sky, another allusion to weapons of warfare) represent the kingsguard? If so, could this indicate that Lyanna at some point in her time missing, came across all seven members of Aerys' kingsguard? I know many people speculate on the three kingsguard at the toj, but I am not sold that Lyanna was even there, so perhaps she just came across them all at Harrenhal? All seven would have been their before Jaime was sent back to Kings Landing by Aerys, perhaps she had some interaction with all of them.
Now, this whole blue flower idea actually presents in a more obvious way to us of Dany than of Jon (blue roses relate to Jon in Ygritte's Bael the Bard tale, but not to blue flowers specifically), as we see it specifically in her HotUD vision, so I think it's possible that this could indicate Dany and seven kingsguard of her own. She doesn't have seven ... yet. But she might some day! I don't want to ignore the implications around Dany, who is also in the parentage soup, but I still see this as more of nod to Lyanna. Who might very well turn out to be Dany's mother. Not my favorite theory, but possible.
Then this:
On the surface, Brandon Stark gets a mention here, in regards to his duel at Riverrun against a young Petyr Baelish. It ties in ways to the duel we will soon see between Bronn and Ser Vardis, with a man lightly armored facing a fully armored man, although a difference can be seen in looking back, we see that Brandon took the majority of his armor off, whether to make things more equal in the sense of defense, but perhaps because Brandon recognized what Ser Vardis didn't, that his heavy armor would slow him and create an eventual disadvantage that an opponent would be able to take advantage of, which Bronn does and Petyr might have hoped to do.
Anyway, we get a direct thought of Brandon Stark in regards to this duel that only has become a possibility because of Jaime and Cersei's sibling incest being discovered by Bran Stark, another Brandon in our story.
So, does the hint of Lyanna (blue flowers) and the mention of Brandon possibly hint to us that they also committed sibling incest, and perhaps even a discovery of such aberrant behavior might have kicked started a war 15 years ago, much in the way that the discovery of the Lannister incest kicked off our current war? I think it's a possibility worth considering, although I am not sold completely on this formula for Starkcest, although I have narrowed down most possible guilty Stark males to Brandon and Eddard leading the odds race, with Rickard and Benjen as having less odds.
But another interesting turn of phrase comes at us in this passage, and that is a hint at Brandon's eye color, which are grey. The "cool grey eyes of a Stark", is how Catelyn remembers him. In Bran's very first POV, we are told that both Ned and Jon have grey eyes. About Ned, we hear "grim cast to his grey eyes" and about Jon we hear "a grey so dark they seemed almost black". We will later find out that Arya also has grey eyes and Benjen has sort of a hybrid blue-grey, according to Jon. And now Brandon Stark with his grey eyes. We are never given Lyanna's eye color in the text, and I know that many speculate that she will have grey eyes, but I don't think so. I think we will find a surprise for us in Lyanna's eye color, but that that doesn't have anything to do with us knowing that Ned, Jon, Arya and Brandon have grey eyes, and Benjen has some grey color to his eyes.
We find out that Jon's eyes seem to be a dark grey, almost black. We also are told that Arya's eyes are "dark" like Jon's, so does that indicate that Arya's eyes are a dark grey as well. I don't know what "cool grey" indicates about color, but I think it is more of a mood or personality trait than a color. We also are told this about Eddard's eyes, also from Cat's POV, and while I could maybe doubt how well she remembers the color of Brandon's eyes after all these years, I think it safe to say that after 14-15 years of marriage to Ned, she knows what his eyes represent. When Cat looks at the skull she is told is Ned's, she thinks, "she found no trace of her lord's dark grey eyes, eyes that could be soft as a fog or hard as stone". I am not sure this indicates a color change for Eddards eyes, as much as it displays a mood change for him in regards to "grim", "soft as fog" or "hard as stone", which could mirror Brandon's "cool" eyes. A trait or expression more than a specific color.
I got tripped up in a little rabbit hole about grey eyed Stark's, but the point I want to make is that grey eyes are indicative of several of our important Stark's in the parentage soup bowl: Jon, Ned, Brandon, possibly Arya if you want to tinfoil she was given to the Stark's as a grumkin or Benjen if you consider his blue-grey a nod to grey eyes. I personally separate Benjen away from the rest of these people based on eye color, but I know that some people do not.
Just one other slight tangent in regards to Brandon's "cool grey eyes" is that on word search, this specific phase comes up one other time in the text, and with an interesting person, I think.
Haldon Half-Maester has "cool grey eyes"? Haldon, long time in the party that is protecting Young Griff/Aegon, with cool, grey eyes like Brandon Stark. I think the turn of phrase is quite interesting. Now, Tyrion would never have known Brandon Stark, but he does know Ned and Jon, and perhaps looked at Arya a time or two, although I don't know if it was enough to pay attention to eye color, but this specific turn of phrase that is used in connection to Brandon Stark and Haldon Half-Maester is pretty interesting. I know there is much speculation that Haldon is actually Walys Flowers, who was supposedly the Maester at Winterfell in Rickard's time and a bastard of a Hightower and a maester, but I am not sold on this theory. What about this specific eye color? Could Haldon actually be a Stark of some sort? Now, if we didn't have confirmation via Jaime that Brandon Stark was dead, I suppose tinfoil could lead us to think that Haldon is actually Brandon, but that's a stretch, even for me, and we know how I LOVE the tinfoil...
Interestingly, but probably not related to this discussion is that Maester Luwin has grey eyes. If Haldon is Maester Walys, doesn't it seem odd that we have two Stark maester's in a row with grey eyes?
Still, I find it hard to ignore the "cool grey eyes" connection specific to Brandon Stark and Haldon Half-Maester in the story. I don't know if it means anything at all, but it almost seems odd if it isn't supposed to tell us something. If Jaime didn't specifically tell us, and Cat, that Brandon died in KL, my tinfoil would shine and glimmer about Brandon Stark possibly being Haldon Half-Maester!
I will say I find it odd that it is Tyrion who is describing this eye color in Haldon, and honestly, if he can describe Haldon's grey eye color, then why the hell can't he describe Septa Lemore's eye color? I suppose he is too busy looking at her tits and ass and stretch marks!!! But I do find this perhaps an interesting connection of the mystery around Young Griff/Aegon with the Stark's, which is something I have always been a bit standoffish about.
Okay, before I went off on a wild tangent, I just want to circle back to the possible hints at Starkcest in the story, and if we consider Jaime and Cersei's incest started this whole ball rolling that has lead to Tyrion's trial with comes to a conclusion in this chapter, and the hints at Lyanna and the mention of Brandon Stark in this chapter, then perhaps the idea of Starkcest is vaguely hinted at here. It's not direct or bright, but I think the hints could be there, with Brandon leading this leg of the race against Eddard. I am not sure who wants to win such a race but sibling incest is part of the story that GRRM has given us from nearly the beginning.
Another interesting character we see much of in this chapter is Bronn, and while I don't know if there is a mystery around Bronn's past or heritage, I certainly think it's possible.
Catelyn thinks that Bronn moves like a panther, which is interesting to me. There are only six panther nods in the entire book series, and one of them is to Bronn. Dany thinks that Drogo moves with the grace of a panther, and she also thinks this about Barsena Blackhair in the fighting pits of Meereen. The rest are not direct descriptions of people but of the animal itself. Two panther nods come in description of the animals that live in the summer isles, and one description is a sigil that Arya see's in the group of men that march out of Harrenhal with Tywin Lannister. I am not sure who's house this sigil belongs to, so if anyone can help me out, that would be great.
Looking at the Citadel's list of houses and sigil's for the Westerlands, a possibility is House Myatt, whose sigil is listed as "a spotted tree cat, yellow and black, on mud brown". Panther's are not always black, although that is how I usually picture them in my head, probably related to a neighboring towns black panther school mascot, but panther's can be golden in color with dark spots. But when Arya is still with Yoren they specifically see a spotted tree cat on a banner, so I really don't think what Arya see's leaving with Tywin is this same sigil.
Another possibility from the Westerlands (and I only looked at the Westerlands, so that might be a great error) is House Perren, which lists a sigil of a black lion's head on gold, over burgundy and white stripes, but while it's listed in the Citadel and looks to be an extinct house, I can find no information to support it's existence in any of the books that have been published. But I do find that a black lion is interesting and might look quite a bit like a black panther, especially considering that not all lions have large manes.
A bit later in the chapter, Cat thinks this of Bronn:
Perhaps looking at a lion is too specific and looking at Bronn as a cat is enough to connect him to several houses in our story. House Reyne stands out to me the most, but since we have zero information on House Perren except they are apparently extinct and had a black lion on their sigil. So, could Bronn be related to either of these houses? I don't know. But I have always liked the idea that Bronn could descend from House Reyne, whose sigil was red lion on gold. Now, the color's don't match a panther that well, but House Reyne is a house with a large cat on it's sigil that supposedly House Lannister ended, just as it did House Tarbeck. Tywin even got himself a song written about it, and its lyrics to mention that "in a coat of gold or a coat of red,
a lion still has claws" so perhaps the color of the cat doesn't matter if Bronn with his panther grace could possibly be descended from House Reyne? There is something special in Bronn's connection to House Lannister, first with Tyrion, then with Cersei, that makes me think he is gaining great ground by using them, and perhaps he might gain enough ground to overtake them, if he wanted. It's tinfoil, I know, but I like to think that Tywin wasn't as almighty as he thought of himself...
Another interesting character we get to know a bit more in this chapter is Lyn Corbray. We are first introduced to him in Catelyn VI and then he is mentioned again briefly in Tyrion V, but we get some more information on him in this chapter. Now, I don't think Lyn is the parent of any of our mystery children, but I do wonder about a genetic component between House Corbray and House Stark, or perhaps it's just a First Men connection between the houses but I see some connections with Lyn and our Stark's.
Lean and handsome, vain, reckless, hot-tempered. Feeding Lysa berries from the tip of his dagger while being rumored to be uninterested in the charms of women. Lean and handsome could be anyone, I suppose, but Jon is described to us in Bran's first POV as slender, which could easily be a descriptor for lean, which can be described as being deficient in flesh and/or containing little or no fat while slender is described as thin, slim or lean. Vain, reckless and hot-tempered are almost exactly how I picture Brandon Stark, although I suppose it's unfair of me to think of him as vain. The reckless and perhaps hot-tempered seem to fit some of the behavior I associate with Brandon Stark. I certainly think Brandon was interested in the charms of women, which certainly makes him different than Lyn. I can certainly imagine Brandon feeding someone something from the tip of his blade!
But these are not the connections that really strike me between Lyn and the Stark's, or at least Lyn and the First Men. The reason these things strike me as a bit odd are that House Corbray is listed as an Andal household that faced off against First Men in the Vale and battled members of House Royce, who are noted to be descended from the First Men.
When there is debate over Tyrion's sentence when everyone speculates he will lose, it is Lyn who calls for a beheading. Beheading seems to be a honored form of execution among the First Men and is one of the very first actions that we see Ned Stark performing in his role of Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, who he tells us still follow the ways of the First Men.
Here we have Lyn commenting on the trial coming directly before the execution, which is another thing that we see in Ned's interaction with Gared in Bran I.
Lyn, who is descended from an Andal house (although we have no idea who is mother is, I guess) is speaking of trial before execution and beheading as that form of execution.
In Tyrion V, we get this from Lyn Corbray:
This is when Lyn offers to stand as Lysa's champion and face Tyrion in combat. That sword of his...
The Order of the Green Hand has an interesting video in which they speculate that Lady Forlorn is originally a Stark sword. I am not sure I buy that completely but I do think it's a very interesting idea. I am not sure which video of theirs it's as I have lost track of their many videos, but I will try to find it and provide the link. In this video, they also mention Lady Forlorn and speculate that Brandon of the Bloody Blade's blade was actually Lightbringer (as well as Lady Forlorn). We do have some history on the sword being in both the hands of members of House Royce and House Corbray at times and we know that Lyn actually picked up Lady Forlorn after his father fell to wounds at the Battle of the Trident and is said to have killed Prince Lewyn Martell of the kingsguard with this blade.
What ever Lyn's role will be in this story, I cannot begin to say, but he get's quite a few mentions in the story for me to think we should not pay attention to him. Perhaps Lyn fit's an archetype that we are supposed to pay attention to, with his weapon, how that weapon likes a drop a red, his wording on trials and execution that fit's a First Men type of mentality, I think he is someone who we need to keep an eye on. Perhaps it's not Lyn that is meant to play an important role, but his sword!
Now, does this have much to do with parentage, honestly, probably not, but his role seemed to stand out to me in this chapter, so it seemed like the best place to mention him a bit. And gosh knows I am capable of derailing a train that is glued to the tracks, so ...
A Stark presence in the Eyrie? When looking at the Eyrie, I often think of Ned and Robert growing up here, or at least spending several of their formative years in this place, but in this chapter, from Catelyn's POV, we have not one mention of Ned. In Cat's assent to the Eyrie, Ned is mentioned several times, and so is Jon. But neither have a place in her thoughts here, but I see hints at two other Stark's in this chapter. And since we are looking at parentage soup, I wonder if these two Stark's have something to show us about parentage of an important character. After all, this chapter is a reaction to Bran discovering Jaime and Cersei's sibling incest and Bran's subsequent nearly fatal fall which in turn caused Cat to take Tyrion captive which in turn is leading to this farce of a trial that Lysa has allowed to happen.
So, I think the concept of sibling incest does hang over this chapter, more obviously in regards to Jaime and Cersei, but perhaps to the idea of Starkcest, as well.
Lysa's apartments opened over a small garden, a circle of dirt and grass planted with blue flowers and ringed on all sides by tall white towers. The builders had intended it as a godswood, but the Eyrie rested on the hard stone of the mountain, and no matter how much soil was hauled up from the Vale, they could not get a weirwood to take root here. So the Lords of the Eyrie planted grass and scattered statuary amidst low, flowering shrubs. It was there the two champions would meet to place their lives, and that of Tyrion Lannister, into the hands of the gods. AGOT-Catelyn VII
We get a little look at the courtyard that was intended to be a godswood but cannot support the growth of a tree, so instead the courtyard is planted with grass and blue flowers. Blue roses seem to be a hint to us of Lyanna, or at least a Stark maid, in our story. Winter roses are a pale blue color, and though these blue flowers are only vaguely described by Catelyn with no real detail, I can't help but think of the blue flower in Dany's HotUD visions as connecting to blue roses or blue flowers and therefore Lyanna Stark. Honestly, we don't really know that she loved blue roses or winter roses, all Ned tells us is that she was "fond of flowers" which also can be interpreted in multiple ways, but in this case, I am looking at Lyanna when it comes to these blue flowers in the Eyrie's courtyard/godswood-with-no-wood.
I also find it interesting that these blue flowers are ringed by tall white towers. I had earlier questioned if the white towers of the Eyrie were not built in some way to mimic a weirwood grove, but there is also a strong element of these towers reminding me of the kingsguard. Tall white towers guarding the terrain, while tall white knights are noted for guarding a king or person in the royal family. If the blue flowers are representations of Lyanna, do the white towers (and we are told in a previous chapter there are seven towers in the Eyrie, thrust like daggers into the sky, another allusion to weapons of warfare) represent the kingsguard? If so, could this indicate that Lyanna at some point in her time missing, came across all seven members of Aerys' kingsguard? I know many people speculate on the three kingsguard at the toj, but I am not sold that Lyanna was even there, so perhaps she just came across them all at Harrenhal? All seven would have been their before Jaime was sent back to Kings Landing by Aerys, perhaps she had some interaction with all of them.
Now, this whole blue flower idea actually presents in a more obvious way to us of Dany than of Jon (blue roses relate to Jon in Ygritte's Bael the Bard tale, but not to blue flowers specifically), as we see it specifically in her HotUD vision, so I think it's possible that this could indicate Dany and seven kingsguard of her own. She doesn't have seven ... yet. But she might some day! I don't want to ignore the implications around Dany, who is also in the parentage soup, but I still see this as more of nod to Lyanna. Who might very well turn out to be Dany's mother. Not my favorite theory, but possible.
Then this:
She had seen men practice at their swordplay near every day of her life, had viewed half a hundred tourneys in her time, but this was something different and deadlier: a dance where the smallest misstep meant death. And as she watched, the memory of another duel in another time came back to Catelyn Stark, as vivid as if it had been yesterday.
They met in the lower bailey of Riverrun. When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor. Petyr had begged her for a favor he might wear, but she had turned him away. Her lord father promised her to Brandon Stark, and so it was to him that she gave her token, a pale blue handscarf she had embroidered with the leaping trout of Riverrun. As she pressed it into his hand, she pleaded with him. "He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die." And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her.
That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. "Yield!" he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr's rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured "Cat" as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that. AGOT-Catelyn VII
They met in the lower bailey of Riverrun. When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor. Petyr had begged her for a favor he might wear, but she had turned him away. Her lord father promised her to Brandon Stark, and so it was to him that she gave her token, a pale blue handscarf she had embroidered with the leaping trout of Riverrun. As she pressed it into his hand, she pleaded with him. "He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die." And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her.
That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. "Yield!" he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr's rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured "Cat" as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that. AGOT-Catelyn VII
On the surface, Brandon Stark gets a mention here, in regards to his duel at Riverrun against a young Petyr Baelish. It ties in ways to the duel we will soon see between Bronn and Ser Vardis, with a man lightly armored facing a fully armored man, although a difference can be seen in looking back, we see that Brandon took the majority of his armor off, whether to make things more equal in the sense of defense, but perhaps because Brandon recognized what Ser Vardis didn't, that his heavy armor would slow him and create an eventual disadvantage that an opponent would be able to take advantage of, which Bronn does and Petyr might have hoped to do.
Anyway, we get a direct thought of Brandon Stark in regards to this duel that only has become a possibility because of Jaime and Cersei's sibling incest being discovered by Bran Stark, another Brandon in our story.
So, does the hint of Lyanna (blue flowers) and the mention of Brandon possibly hint to us that they also committed sibling incest, and perhaps even a discovery of such aberrant behavior might have kicked started a war 15 years ago, much in the way that the discovery of the Lannister incest kicked off our current war? I think it's a possibility worth considering, although I am not sold completely on this formula for Starkcest, although I have narrowed down most possible guilty Stark males to Brandon and Eddard leading the odds race, with Rickard and Benjen as having less odds.
But another interesting turn of phrase comes at us in this passage, and that is a hint at Brandon's eye color, which are grey. The "cool grey eyes of a Stark", is how Catelyn remembers him. In Bran's very first POV, we are told that both Ned and Jon have grey eyes. About Ned, we hear "grim cast to his grey eyes" and about Jon we hear "a grey so dark they seemed almost black". We will later find out that Arya also has grey eyes and Benjen has sort of a hybrid blue-grey, according to Jon. And now Brandon Stark with his grey eyes. We are never given Lyanna's eye color in the text, and I know that many speculate that she will have grey eyes, but I don't think so. I think we will find a surprise for us in Lyanna's eye color, but that that doesn't have anything to do with us knowing that Ned, Jon, Arya and Brandon have grey eyes, and Benjen has some grey color to his eyes.
We find out that Jon's eyes seem to be a dark grey, almost black. We also are told that Arya's eyes are "dark" like Jon's, so does that indicate that Arya's eyes are a dark grey as well. I don't know what "cool grey" indicates about color, but I think it is more of a mood or personality trait than a color. We also are told this about Eddard's eyes, also from Cat's POV, and while I could maybe doubt how well she remembers the color of Brandon's eyes after all these years, I think it safe to say that after 14-15 years of marriage to Ned, she knows what his eyes represent. When Cat looks at the skull she is told is Ned's, she thinks, "she found no trace of her lord's dark grey eyes, eyes that could be soft as a fog or hard as stone". I am not sure this indicates a color change for Eddards eyes, as much as it displays a mood change for him in regards to "grim", "soft as fog" or "hard as stone", which could mirror Brandon's "cool" eyes. A trait or expression more than a specific color.
I got tripped up in a little rabbit hole about grey eyed Stark's, but the point I want to make is that grey eyes are indicative of several of our important Stark's in the parentage soup bowl: Jon, Ned, Brandon, possibly Arya if you want to tinfoil she was given to the Stark's as a grumkin or Benjen if you consider his blue-grey a nod to grey eyes. I personally separate Benjen away from the rest of these people based on eye color, but I know that some people do not.
Just one other slight tangent in regards to Brandon's "cool grey eyes" is that on word search, this specific phase comes up one other time in the text, and with an interesting person, I think.
The big man roared with laughter. "Did you hear, Haldon? He wants a smaller Duck!"
"I should gladly settle for a quieter one." The man called Haldon studied Tyrion with cool grey eyes before turning back to Illyrio. "You have some chests for us?" ADWD-Tyrion III
"I should gladly settle for a quieter one." The man called Haldon studied Tyrion with cool grey eyes before turning back to Illyrio. "You have some chests for us?" ADWD-Tyrion III
Haldon Half-Maester has "cool grey eyes"? Haldon, long time in the party that is protecting Young Griff/Aegon, with cool, grey eyes like Brandon Stark. I think the turn of phrase is quite interesting. Now, Tyrion would never have known Brandon Stark, but he does know Ned and Jon, and perhaps looked at Arya a time or two, although I don't know if it was enough to pay attention to eye color, but this specific turn of phrase that is used in connection to Brandon Stark and Haldon Half-Maester is pretty interesting. I know there is much speculation that Haldon is actually Walys Flowers, who was supposedly the Maester at Winterfell in Rickard's time and a bastard of a Hightower and a maester, but I am not sold on this theory. What about this specific eye color? Could Haldon actually be a Stark of some sort? Now, if we didn't have confirmation via Jaime that Brandon Stark was dead, I suppose tinfoil could lead us to think that Haldon is actually Brandon, but that's a stretch, even for me, and we know how I LOVE the tinfoil...
Interestingly, but probably not related to this discussion is that Maester Luwin has grey eyes. If Haldon is Maester Walys, doesn't it seem odd that we have two Stark maester's in a row with grey eyes?
Still, I find it hard to ignore the "cool grey eyes" connection specific to Brandon Stark and Haldon Half-Maester in the story. I don't know if it means anything at all, but it almost seems odd if it isn't supposed to tell us something. If Jaime didn't specifically tell us, and Cat, that Brandon died in KL, my tinfoil would shine and glimmer about Brandon Stark possibly being Haldon Half-Maester!
I will say I find it odd that it is Tyrion who is describing this eye color in Haldon, and honestly, if he can describe Haldon's grey eye color, then why the hell can't he describe Septa Lemore's eye color? I suppose he is too busy looking at her tits and ass and stretch marks!!! But I do find this perhaps an interesting connection of the mystery around Young Griff/Aegon with the Stark's, which is something I have always been a bit standoffish about.
Okay, before I went off on a wild tangent, I just want to circle back to the possible hints at Starkcest in the story, and if we consider Jaime and Cersei's incest started this whole ball rolling that has lead to Tyrion's trial with comes to a conclusion in this chapter, and the hints at Lyanna and the mention of Brandon Stark in this chapter, then perhaps the idea of Starkcest is vaguely hinted at here. It's not direct or bright, but I think the hints could be there, with Brandon leading this leg of the race against Eddard. I am not sure who wants to win such a race but sibling incest is part of the story that GRRM has given us from nearly the beginning.
Another interesting character we see much of in this chapter is Bronn, and while I don't know if there is a mystery around Bronn's past or heritage, I certainly think it's possible.
"Small chance of that, my lady," Lord Hunter assured her, patting her shoulder with a liver-spotted hand. "Ser Vardis is a doughty fighter. He will make short work of the sellsword."
"Will he, my lord?" Catelyn said coolly. "I wonder." She had seen Bronn fight on the high road; it was no accident that he had survived the journey while other men had died. He moved like a panther, and that ugly sword of his seemed a part of his arm. AGOT-Catelyn VII
"Will he, my lord?" Catelyn said coolly. "I wonder." She had seen Bronn fight on the high road; it was no accident that he had survived the journey while other men had died. He moved like a panther, and that ugly sword of his seemed a part of his arm. AGOT-Catelyn VII
Catelyn thinks that Bronn moves like a panther, which is interesting to me. There are only six panther nods in the entire book series, and one of them is to Bronn. Dany thinks that Drogo moves with the grace of a panther, and she also thinks this about Barsena Blackhair in the fighting pits of Meereen. The rest are not direct descriptions of people but of the animal itself. Two panther nods come in description of the animals that live in the summer isles, and one description is a sigil that Arya see's in the group of men that march out of Harrenhal with Tywin Lannister. I am not sure who's house this sigil belongs to, so if anyone can help me out, that would be great.
Looking at the Citadel's list of houses and sigil's for the Westerlands, a possibility is House Myatt, whose sigil is listed as "a spotted tree cat, yellow and black, on mud brown". Panther's are not always black, although that is how I usually picture them in my head, probably related to a neighboring towns black panther school mascot, but panther's can be golden in color with dark spots. But when Arya is still with Yoren they specifically see a spotted tree cat on a banner, so I really don't think what Arya see's leaving with Tywin is this same sigil.
Another possibility from the Westerlands (and I only looked at the Westerlands, so that might be a great error) is House Perren, which lists a sigil of a black lion's head on gold, over burgundy and white stripes, but while it's listed in the Citadel and looks to be an extinct house, I can find no information to support it's existence in any of the books that have been published. But I do find that a black lion is interesting and might look quite a bit like a black panther, especially considering that not all lions have large manes.
A bit later in the chapter, Cat thinks this of Bronn:
Catelyn did not need to be told; she had eyes, she could see the bright finger of blood running along the knight's forearm, the wetness inside the elbow joint. Every parry was a little slower and a little lower than the one before. Ser Vardis turned his side to his foe, trying to use his shield to block instead, but Bronn slid around him, quick as a cat. The sellsword seemed to be getting stronger. His cuts were leaving their marks now. Deep shiny gashes gleamed all over the knight's armor, on his right thigh, his beaked visor, crossing on his breastplate, a long one along the front of his gorget. The moon-and-falcon rondel over Ser Vardis's right arm was sheared clean in half, hanging by its strap. They could hear his labored breath, rattling through the air holes in his visor. AGOT-Catelyn VII
Perhaps looking at a lion is too specific and looking at Bronn as a cat is enough to connect him to several houses in our story. House Reyne stands out to me the most, but since we have zero information on House Perren except they are apparently extinct and had a black lion on their sigil. So, could Bronn be related to either of these houses? I don't know. But I have always liked the idea that Bronn could descend from House Reyne, whose sigil was red lion on gold. Now, the color's don't match a panther that well, but House Reyne is a house with a large cat on it's sigil that supposedly House Lannister ended, just as it did House Tarbeck. Tywin even got himself a song written about it, and its lyrics to mention that "in a coat of gold or a coat of red,
a lion still has claws" so perhaps the color of the cat doesn't matter if Bronn with his panther grace could possibly be descended from House Reyne? There is something special in Bronn's connection to House Lannister, first with Tyrion, then with Cersei, that makes me think he is gaining great ground by using them, and perhaps he might gain enough ground to overtake them, if he wanted. It's tinfoil, I know, but I like to think that Tywin wasn't as almighty as he thought of himself...
Another interesting character we get to know a bit more in this chapter is Lyn Corbray. We are first introduced to him in Catelyn VI and then he is mentioned again briefly in Tyrion V, but we get some more information on him in this chapter. Now, I don't think Lyn is the parent of any of our mystery children, but I do wonder about a genetic component between House Corbray and House Stark, or perhaps it's just a First Men connection between the houses but I see some connections with Lyn and our Stark's.
Across the terrace, Lysa laughed gaily at some jest of Lord Hunter's, and nibbled a blackberry from the point of Ser Lyn Corbray's dagger. They were the suitors who stood highest in Lysa's favor … today, at least. Catelyn would have been hard-pressed to say which man was more unsuitable. Eon Hunter was even older than Jon Arryn had been, half-crippled by gout, and cursed with three quarrelsome sons, each more grasping than the last. Ser Lyn was a different sort of folly; lean and handsome, heir to an ancient but impoverished house, but vain, reckless, hot-tempered … and, it was whispered, notoriously uninterested in the intimate charms of women. AGOT-Catelyn VII
Lean and handsome, vain, reckless, hot-tempered. Feeding Lysa berries from the tip of his dagger while being rumored to be uninterested in the charms of women. Lean and handsome could be anyone, I suppose, but Jon is described to us in Bran's first POV as slender, which could easily be a descriptor for lean, which can be described as being deficient in flesh and/or containing little or no fat while slender is described as thin, slim or lean. Vain, reckless and hot-tempered are almost exactly how I picture Brandon Stark, although I suppose it's unfair of me to think of him as vain. The reckless and perhaps hot-tempered seem to fit some of the behavior I associate with Brandon Stark. I certainly think Brandon was interested in the charms of women, which certainly makes him different than Lyn. I can certainly imagine Brandon feeding someone something from the tip of his blade!
But these are not the connections that really strike me between Lyn and the Stark's, or at least Lyn and the First Men. The reason these things strike me as a bit odd are that House Corbray is listed as an Andal household that faced off against First Men in the Vale and battled members of House Royce, who are noted to be descended from the First Men.
"Say you have the truth of it, then," Catelyn said with a courtesy that made her mouth ache. "What will we gain by the dwarf's death? Do you imagine that Jaime will care a fig that we gave his brother a trial before we flung him off a mountain?"
"Behead the man," Ser Lyn Corbray suggested. "When the Kingslayer receives the Imp's head, it will be a warning to him."
Lysa gave an impatient shake of her waist-long auburn hair. "Lord Robert wants to see him fly," she said, as if that settled the matter. "And the Imp has only himself to blame. It was he who demanded a trial by combat." AGOT-Catelyn VII
"Behead the man," Ser Lyn Corbray suggested. "When the Kingslayer receives the Imp's head, it will be a warning to him."
Lysa gave an impatient shake of her waist-long auburn hair. "Lord Robert wants to see him fly," she said, as if that settled the matter. "And the Imp has only himself to blame. It was he who demanded a trial by combat." AGOT-Catelyn VII
When there is debate over Tyrion's sentence when everyone speculates he will lose, it is Lyn who calls for a beheading. Beheading seems to be a honored form of execution among the First Men and is one of the very first actions that we see Ned Stark performing in his role of Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, who he tells us still follow the ways of the First Men.
"The bad little man," Lord Robert said, giggling. "Mother, can I make him fly? I want to see him fly."
"Later, my sweet baby," Lysa promised him.
"Trial first," drawled Ser Lyn Corbray, "then execution." AGOT-Catelyn VII
"Later, my sweet baby," Lysa promised him.
"Trial first," drawled Ser Lyn Corbray, "then execution." AGOT-Catelyn VII
Lyn, who is descended from an Andal house (although we have no idea who is mother is, I guess) is speaking of trial before execution and beheading as that form of execution.
In Tyrion V, we get this from Lyn Corbray:
"The gods favor the man with the just cause," said Ser Lyn Corbray, "yet often that turns out to be the man with the surest sword. We all know who that is." He smiled modestly. AGOT-Tyrion V
This is when Lyn offers to stand as Lysa's champion and face Tyrion in combat. That sword of his...
"Come, Lyn," chided Redfort in a softer tone. "This will serve for nought. Put Lady Forlorn to bed."
"My lady has a thirst," Ser Lyn insisted. "Whenever she comes out to dance, she likes a drop of red."
"Your lady must go thirsty." Bronze Yohn put himself squarely in Corbray's path. AFFC-Alayne I
"My lady has a thirst," Ser Lyn insisted. "Whenever she comes out to dance, she likes a drop of red."
"Your lady must go thirsty." Bronze Yohn put himself squarely in Corbray's path. AFFC-Alayne I
The Order of the Green Hand has an interesting video in which they speculate that Lady Forlorn is originally a Stark sword. I am not sure I buy that completely but I do think it's a very interesting idea. I am not sure which video of theirs it's as I have lost track of their many videos, but I will try to find it and provide the link. In this video, they also mention Lady Forlorn and speculate that Brandon of the Bloody Blade's blade was actually Lightbringer (as well as Lady Forlorn). We do have some history on the sword being in both the hands of members of House Royce and House Corbray at times and we know that Lyn actually picked up Lady Forlorn after his father fell to wounds at the Battle of the Trident and is said to have killed Prince Lewyn Martell of the kingsguard with this blade.
What ever Lyn's role will be in this story, I cannot begin to say, but he get's quite a few mentions in the story for me to think we should not pay attention to him. Perhaps Lyn fit's an archetype that we are supposed to pay attention to, with his weapon, how that weapon likes a drop a red, his wording on trials and execution that fit's a First Men type of mentality, I think he is someone who we need to keep an eye on. Perhaps it's not Lyn that is meant to play an important role, but his sword!
Now, does this have much to do with parentage, honestly, probably not, but his role seemed to stand out to me in this chapter, so it seemed like the best place to mention him a bit. And gosh knows I am capable of derailing a train that is glued to the tracks, so ...