1.44 Sansa III

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stdaga
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1.44 Sansa III May 21, 2019 15:14:48 GMT

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Post by stdaga on May 21, 2019 15:14:48 GMT

Gosh, it's been three months since the last post in the parentage thread reread. It feels like a habit that died a hard death, just like exercise and eating well, in my life, but I am going to try to plunge back in. I think this chapter has a major reveal, and then more little hints to us of the past. The big reveal first!

So, this chapter is our big wake up call for Lord Eddard, where it seems to occur to him, based on Sansa's words, that perhaps Joffrey is not Robert's son. Let's get right to that passage:

"Who cares about your stupid dancing master?" Sansa flared. "Father, I only just now remembered, I can't go away, I'm to marry Prince Joffrey." She tried to smile bravely for him. "I love him, Father, I truly truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian. I want to be his queen and have his babies."

"Sweet one," her father said gently, "listen to me. When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me."

"He is!" Sansa insisted. "I don't want someone brave and gentle, I want him. We'll be ever so happy, just like in the songs, you'll see. I'll give him a son with golden hair, and one day he'll be the king of all the realm, the greatest king that ever was, as brave as the wolf and as proud as the lion."

Arya made a face. "Not if Joffrey's his father," she said. "He's a liar and a craven and anyhow he's a stag, not a lion."

Sansa felt tears in her eyes. "He is not! He's not the least bit like that old drunken king," she screamed at her sister, forgetting herself in her grief.

Father looked at her strangely. "Gods," he swore softly, "out of the mouth of babes …" He shouted for Septa Mordane. To the girls he said, "I am looking for a fast trading galley to take you home. These days, the sea is safer than the kingsroad. You will sail as soon as I can find a proper ship, with Septa Mordane and a complement of guards … and yes, with Syrio Forel, if he agrees to enter my service. But say nothing of this. It's better if no one knows of our plans. We'll talk again tomorrow." AGOT-Sansa III

Now, this scene in Ned's chambers opens with him looking over a large book, a book we can surmise is the lineage of the great houses that Ned has been pondering, with all the hair of coal and hair of gold references, so this is fresh in Ned's mind. Then, the discussion with both Sansa and Arya that leads to Ned's realization. I know there is some argument that Ned didn't really know until he confronted Cersei in the godswood, but I think in this moment, he understands exactly who both of Joffrey's parents are, and that moment with Cersei is a minor confirmation of what he has realized. That Joffrey is a lion, and not a stag. It's not just the hair color, the eye color, the Lannister gold curls. It's behavior, as well.

Earlier in the chapter we are told that Beric has been sent to hunt the Mountain for his crimes and Arya states that the Hound should also be hunted for his crimes, which is the death of Mycah. But we also know that Jaime was out hunting Arya, and in later books, we find out that Jaime would not have been kind to Arya if he had found her first.

The Tower of the Hand seemed so empty after they left that Sansa was even pleased to see Arya when she went down to break her fast. "Where is everyone?" her sister wanted to know as she ripped the skin from a blood orange. "Did Father send them to hunt down Jaime Lannister?"

Sansa sighed. "They rode with Lord Beric, to behead Ser Gregor Clegane." She turned to Septa Mordane, who was eating porridge with a wooden spoon. "Septa, will Lord Beric spike Ser Gregor's head on his own gate or bring it back here for the king?" She and Jeyne Poole had been arguing over that last night.

The septa was horror-struck. "A lady does not discuss such things over her porridge. Where are your courtesies, Sansa? I swear, of late you've been near as bad as your sister."

"What did Gregor do?" Arya asked.

"He burned down a holdfast and murdered a lot of people, women and children too."

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them."

"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

"Liar," Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers. AGOT-Sansa III

Even if Ned is not present for this part of the conversation where Jaime is mentioned, we know his opinion on Jaime Lannister. But this does put Jaime into our minds, which is important toward the end of the chapter, when we are talking about stags and lions. The story as already given us Jaime, the Lion of Lannister and the Kingslayer, two nicknames for Jaime from Jon's very first POV back in Winterfell. And in this passage, both Jaime and Joffrey's behavior is questioned and compared to each other, and it serves as a direct reminder to the reader.

Basically, Joffrey is nothing like that old stag, he is a lion! And then Ned has his "ah ha" moment! I will say that an argument can be made for Joffrey being like a lion because his mother is a lion, but this passage seems to be telling us that son's take after their father's. A son of Robert's should both look like him and act like him, and we have already met Gendry. (We have also met Mya, but I am not sure how that works in a comparison of father's and son, although she is linked by coloring to Robert) And if Jaime Lannister had a son, it would both look and act like him. And we have Joffrey, whom is like Jaime and nothing like Robert!

I will say if this theory works with GRRM's other puzzles (yes, I am talking about Jon Snow) then Jon is very like his father. Jon is very much as Stark, in looks and behavior. So, if if follows that Joffrey is like his father, then Jon would also be like his father. Now, a more direct comparison is that Joffrey is very much a Lannister because both his parents are Lannister's, while Jon Snow has "more of the north in him" because both of his parents are Starks. But even if Starkcest isn't the case about Jon, this discovery of Joffrey being like his father should lead us to understand that Jon is like his father (whether that turns out to be Ned, Brandon, Benjen or Rickard-depending on the timeline), which could mean Jon is NOT connected to Lyanna! :leaving

I have come to believe that Jon and Joff are direct nods to one another in full parentage, but it doesn't need to be this way. It could just come down to fathers. I know RLJ is built around the idea that Jon is very like his mother, but this reveal for Joff is that a son takes after his father. And the idea we have chased with Robert's bastards, at least the ones we know, are that they have Baratheon black hair, and most of them have the blue eyes. It can be argued that Joffrey is also VERY like Cersei in behavior, so both parents are represented in Joff. And perhaps in Jon!

And I know that just because we have Lannister incest, it doesn't mean we have to have Stark incest, but it certainly could mean that! If this turns out to be the case, the seeds have been nicely laid in the story, in spite of the arguments to the contrary that GRRM "would not do that" with the Stark's. I actually think he would, because he likes complicated characters and arc's, and if people want to hate Joffrey because he is a bastard of incest, then what if one of the characters that is built up to be a hero to our story, is also a bastard born of incest? Do we suddenly hate Jon Snow for what his parentage makes him, or do we still appreciate him for the man that he is? I think those are the types of complicated questions that GRRM is not afraid to ask his readers!

I think the other thing that triggers the incest idea in this passage is the mention of Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight. We don't know at this point that these two characters are brother and sister, I don't think that reveal comes until later books honestly (perhaps even the world book), but this is one of those things that stands out to a person on reread. Also, they are a brother and sister, one who is a queen and one who is a kingsgaurd, that is a direct nod to Jaime and Cersei's relationship. The only thing that would make it absolutely direct is if Cersei was married to her brother, who was king, but perhaps that is just "too much" of a parallel. I admit I get caught up in looking for absolute parallel's, and this is a reminder to me that things don't need to be that absolute!

However, in the name of tinfoil and reading into parallel's, it does make me wonder about the relationship between Jonquil and Florian???

Back to Joffrey. So, we know that Robert likes to hunt, but we are never given the impression he likes to kill, just to kill. But in this chapter, Sansa plainly tells us that Joffrey likes killing. Only animals, she thinks, and then goes on to blame all the business with Jory, Heward and Wyl as Jaime's fault, not Joffrey's, just like she denies that what happened to Mycah and Lady is Joffrey's fault. But personally, I think this is another tie for Jaime and Joffrey. Jaime certainly likes battle and sword play, but does he also like to kill? I think so! And even Sansa, who is blind as a Lothston bat is aware that Joffrey has the nature of a killer. Which is why she never, NEVER, should have thought that Joffrey would show mercy to Ned. Sometimes I really question of she realized what would happen on the steps of the Sept of Baelor and just pretends to be surprised, even to fool herself?

There is quite a bit more foreshadowing in this chapter, some about parentage, but the majority not about parentage. I plan to make a second post about the other parentage hints I see in this chapter, but I have run out of time and fear I will lose what I have already worked up, so I am going to post, and hopefully followup with the rest of my thoughts a bit later! :cheers

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

stdaga
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1.44 Sansa III May 24, 2019 0:52:43 GMT

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Post by stdaga on May 24, 2019 0:52:43 GMT

So the obvious reveal in this chapter has already been discussed in the first post, but there are some interesting possible hints that remain in the chapter. Anytime we see a dynamic of Sansa and Arya together, they seem strongly contrasted and also I think hints of past characters and actions. A major question for me is what role does Lyanna play in the lives of Arya or Sansa. Do aspects of each of them fit her, is she absolutely like Arya, or in a twist, is Lyanna more like Sansa than we could ever imagine?

It's hard to imagine that Ned is wrong when he says that Arya is like Lyanna. She looks like her and even reminds him of her.

"Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her." AGOT-Arya II

So, the sometimes always catches me in this comment. Sometimes ... Arya reminds Ned of Lyanna, but what about the other times? Is Lyanna more like Sansa the other times?

This statement surely seems to indicate that Arya and Lyanna look alike, although I think an argument can be made that Arya and Lyanna could look alike while still having different coloring. But most people interpret this to mean that Arya, our grey eyed, brown haired Stark maid that Bran once mistakes for Leaf, a CotF for, is a near carbon copy of Lyanna. Same features, same coloring, and same behavior. Perhaps but I am not convinced that GRRM isn't trying to be a bit sly by leaving our physical description of Lyanna completely blank in the story.

Anyway, to this chapter's possible ramifications on the past.

We open with Sansa and Jeyne Poole (another future Arya stand in) discussing Loras Tyrell. Sansa still is in love with Joffrey, but she is not blind to the charms of Ser Loras Tyrell. She thinks Loras is everything a knight should be. Handsome, charming, gallant. A true hero who would slay a monster, aka Gregor Clegane the Mountain who Rides. Sansa doesn't even know Loras, but based on his looks, him gallantly giving her a rose at the Hands Tourney, even while ignoring the implication that he cheated with a mare in heat in a bid to beat the Mountain, Sansa is quite blind to any faults of Loras. Could this indicate something about Lyanna in the past? Or is this supposed to tell us something about Ashara, who might be a stand in role to of "sister" to Lyanna Stark.

We also see Sansa talking about Beric Dondarrion, whom Jeyne seems to be crushing on, even if the man is (gasp!) 22 years old, far to old for Sansa's interest, and Jeyne's too, according to Sansa. So, if Rhaegar was 22 at Harrenhal, does that mean that he might have been to old for Lyanna to be interested in, in spite of his looks and princely status? I think there is also the potential of Jeyne Poole being a stand in for another young woman at Harrenhal, someone who was not of high birth, but might have had a great crush on an "older" man who was out of her league.

Our third look at Sansa's interest in men comes when she thinks about Joffrey. She still finds him handsome and gallant, even though she acknowledges he likes to kill things. She makes the distinction that he likes to kill animals, and places the blame of what happened to Mycah on the Hound and the Queen. She feels her golden Joff is innocent of any wrong doing with that, even though she herself witnessed him cut Mycah's face and pull a sword on her own sister. Blindness in Sansa is quite interesting, as she obviously see's only what she wants to see. How could this be a hint of the past? And if we are to get a hint about a crown prince who is lovely but perhaps doesn't look so gallant, should we be wondering just what kind of man Rhaegar Targaryen truly was? I really hate to compare Rhaegar to Joffrey, since we know so little about Rhaegar, but is there some implication in the text that should catch our attention? Of course, GRRM is crafty with implication, so perhaps this has nothing to do with Rhaegar, although he wants us to think about a possible connection.

So, we have Sansa having an interest in three men. One is Loras whom she finds handsome but she is in love with her "prince" who is also her fiance. Could this hint that Lyanna was enamoured of Rhaegar's looks but still loyally in love with Robert, her fiance? Then we have Beric, who could also be a stand in for Rhaegar, whom Sansa seems to feel is just too old for someone of her age to be interested in, in spite of his handsome looks or courtly behaviors. Then we have Joffrey, who could be playing both the role of Rhaegar, as crown prince, as well as Robert, as the fiance. I am not sure which could be more likely if we are looking at a parallel's and if we are looking at inversions, it's even more confusing to me.

One thing I will say about Rhaegar and Joffrey being parallel's is that we will later find that Joffrey was more than willing to marry Margaery, while still having Sansa as a lover on the side, so could that indicate that Rhaegar was content to have his marriage, but still have a little slap and tickle on the side, and with a woman who might not be that willing to be his plaything. Sansa was certainly not enamoured of Joff at this point, and feared becoming his lover.

One thing that all of these men and Sansa have in common, is that non of them were ever her lover. In her current story line, Joff and Beric are dead, and while Loras still lives, his fate is quite unclear, and he is still more interested in men than he would ever be in her. So, any way we look at this, I question that Lyanna had sexual relations with any of the men who might be paralleled in her own story line. The argument can be made, that Lyanna and Sansa are of a different age, and while sex is not on the table for an eleven year old, the interests of a fifteen year old are quite different, and that could alter how we look at the past.

Now, if we look at Arya as Lyanna's parallel, we have a girl who is interested in swords and chasing cat's around the Red Keep, with scrapped knees and a dirty face, while being dressed in scruffy cloths. Arya isn't interested in any one of these men, and thinks Joff is a total douche bag. IF Arya is a nod to Lyanna from the past, then Lyanna wasn't interested in any of these possible lovers. I do remember though that our crown prince was set to do some major harm on the banks of the Trident, and without Nymeria's interaction, he would have probably succeeded. This could also be a nod to the past, since Lyanna didn't have a direwolf to protect her, and therefore she might have been a victim.

Another thing in this chapter that might be a hint to us of which of Ned's daughters we should look to in determining whom Lyanna was like is the information we get on horses and stables. In this chapter, Sansa tells us, "Sansa hated stables, smelly places full of manure and flies. Even when she went riding, she liked the boy to saddle the horse and bring it to her in the yard", contrasted with the information from Jeyne Poole that "I saw your sister this afternoon," Jeyne blurted out, as if she'd been reading Sansa's thoughts. "She was walking through the stables on her hands. Why would she do a thing like that?"

So, we have Sansa hating the stables while Arya isn't afraid to put her hands on the dirty, manure covered ground of the stables. Now, since we don't have any information on Lyanna and stables, it's hard to say for sure how she acted in them. But we know that Lyanna could ride very well, andHarwin will later compare Arya to Lyanna in riding skills. Still, while Sansa might not love the stables, that doesn't mean she doesn't ride very well, even if she doesn't love doing it (she tells us she hates riding in Sansa I). Arya seems a natural at riding, and seems to enjoy it, too.

Honestly, more lines up with Arya being like Lyanna than Sansa being like Lyanna, but since I think GRRM is tricky, I cannot say for sure that he is not trying to fool us.

These are things that I see might be possible hints of Lyanna from the past, and it all used to be clearer to me, but the more I read, the more I question, and now I can't honestly say that I think Arya is Lyanna 2.0, like I did several years ago. Whatever we find in conclusion to the story in regards to Lyanna, I do think we will see it laid out nicely in these chapters. That is, if we ever get an ending to our story!

And while we don't know that Lyanna had any children, the story implies the possibility, and therefore I find looking into possible parallels to her story might help us answer some questions. So far, I still have no great answers.

I have a few more things that I would like to discuss in this chapter, but none of them have anything to do with parentage or implications on past characters, so I am going to package them into a separate post.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

stdaga
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1.44 Sansa III May 24, 2019 2:22:45 GMT

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Post by stdaga on May 24, 2019 2:22:45 GMT

This is not a long chapter, but I swear it is filled to the brim with hints and implications. In the past, Sansa's POV has not been my favorite, so I have probably not thought on it as much as I have other's POV's, but there is some very interesting stuff layered within her thoughts.

I have argued in the past that both Catelyn and Sansa have a type of sight or premonition ability, and I think it comes to the forefront in this chapter as well.

In regards to Ser Ilyn Payne, Sansa is again completely uncomfortable around him. In this chapter we get:

"Ser Ilyn's the King's Justice, not Ser Loras," Jeyne said. "Lord Eddard should have sent him."

Sansa shuddered. Every time she looked at Ser Ilyn Payne, she shivered. He made her feel as though something dead were slithering over her naked skin. "Ser Ilyn's almost like a second monster. I'm glad Father didn't pick him." AGOT-Sansa III

Sansa is very uncomfortable around Ilyn, and perhaps this is just a foreshadowing in the role that Ilyn will play in Ned's death, but I think it could be more. Of course, until we get more books, I can't prove or disprove my own thoughts. Either way, we can't deny that on her first meeting, Ser Ilyn made her terribly uncomfortable, and her she shudders and shivers just at the thought of him, she thinks of him as if something dead were slithering over her skin, which is a really strong reaction. She also refers to him as a monster here. In other places in the story, Sansa notes that he has pale and colorless eyes, which actually reminds me of Roose and Ramsay, and she also thinks of his eyes as being dead, which I find the most interesting connection of all. If his eyes are dead, what is going on behind the veil? If something later in our story doesn't include a run in with Sansa Stark and Ilyn Payne, I will be shocked. And a bit sad, because it's something I am weirdly looking forward too!

Then we get Sansa's next run in with Petyr "the little creep" Baelish. And we get this bit of knowledge that Littlefinger imparts to Sansa:

"Life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow." AGOT-Sansa III

Is this information purely for Sansa, or is it GRRM telling us to beware of where this story is taking us. The "song" concept also has implications within the title of the book series itself. A Song of Ice and Fire. But life is not a song, so perhaps this story and it's title really have nothing to do with life. Maybe it has more to do with death?

In this passage with Petyr and Sansa, Baelish is again very creepy with Sansa. He touches her face, which is not at all appropriate, and one wonders how Ned would react if he had seen this. We also get Littlefinger working to undermine Ned to Sansa, in his decision to send Beric after the Mountain instead of Loras. Now, Sansa and Baelish agree the Loras was a better choice, but for completely different reasons. And in this, Sansa really gives Petyr an idea of how much her head is in a cloud of fairy tales with her talk of heroes and monsters, and he, I think, see's how easily she is to manipulate. As easy as Lysa! As easy as Catelyn!

Another interesting passage is in regards to the white hart.

It would have been unkind to say so, however, so Sansa took a sip of milk and changed the subject. "I had a dream that Joffrey would be the one to take the white hart," she said. It had been more of a wish, actually, but it sounded better to call it a dream. Everyone knew that dreams were prophetic. White harts were supposed to be very rare and magical, and in her heart she knew her gallant prince was worthier than his drunken father.

"A dream? Truly? Did Prince Joffrey just go up to it and touch it with his bare hand and do it no harm?"

"No," Sansa said. "He shot it with a golden arrow and brought it back for me." In the songs, the knights never killed magical beasts, they just went up to them and touched them and did them no harm, but she knew Joffrey liked hunting, especially the killing part. Only animals, though. Sansa was certain her prince had no part in murdering Jory and those other poor men; that had been his wicked uncle, the Kingslayer. She knew her father was still angry about that, but it wasn't fair to blame Joff. That would be like blaming her for something that Arya had done. AGOT-Sansa III

The white hart itself is interesting, because it's somewhat of a mythical beast in our world lore, but also because of the Baratheon stag imagery. A white hart was a pure, almost magical beast. Both Robert and Joffrey want it, but we will later find out that "some wolves" got to it first, leaving Robert a hoof and a horn. Which I find very interesting. Robert is king and Joffrey is crown prince, and both could be a stand in for a king and crown prince in the past, Aerys and Rhaegar. What was the white hart that those Targaryen's were after? And what about the symbolism in "some wolves" getting to it first? I think this has some implication on the past, perhaps with Lyanna, but perhaps also with Ashara. The white hart is mentioned three times in the story, first in Ned's POV, this second time in Sansa's POV, and the third and final time in Ned's POV, the same chapter that we find out about Robert's injuries from the boar. It's interesting that in Robert's anger over not getting his white hart, that he hears of a monstrous boar in the forest and he then chases that which leads to his eventual injury that leads to death. He does kill the boar, but the boar also kills him, but the white hart was used basically as a metaphaphorical bait to draw Robert to the boar.

I have an interest in the names of ships in this story and we do have a galley that is called the White Hart. It's part of Robert's fleet, but after his death, the captain of this ship tries to join Stannis' cause. It doesn't work and the ship remains part of Joffrey's fleet. During the Battle of the Blackwater, the Black Betha, which is Davos Seaworth's galley, successfully boards the White Hart, until both ships are engulfed in the wild fire flames and destroyed. White Hart, Black Betha! Is the Black Betha in some way a stand in for the boar that kills Robert, but is in turn destroyed? Does this hint at the House of Black and White, or just duel natures in this story? There is something hidden within this information, but I can't puzzle it out yet.

And in this chapter I see the implication for Sansa's death. I see it twice actually, and will discuss both times.

She ripped off the rest of her clothes wildly, threw herself into bed, and cried herself back to sleep.

It was midday when Septa Mordane knocked upon her door. "Sansa. Your lord father will see you now."

Sansa sat up. "Lady," she whispered. For a moment it was as if the direwolf was there in the room, looking at her with those golden eyes, sad and knowing. She had been dreaming, she realized. Lady was with her, and they were running together, and … and … trying to remember was like trying to catch the rain with her fingers. The dream faded, and Lady was dead again. AGOT-Sansa III

Certainly, I think that Sansa had a warg-like connection with Lady, and it seems like it's possible that even though Lady is dead, some of that connection remains. But this is interesting to me, that when Sansa dreams, she dreams she is running beside Lady, Lady who is noted to have sad and knowing eyes. I think this could indicate that Sansa will share Lady's fate. Death, and probably burial at Winterfell already. As I mentioned earlier, I think Sansa has some type of foresight, but the running along side of her direwolf turns into Sansa noting that Lady is dead. Sansa is running with the dead, hinting at her fate, I think.

The other implication of Sansa's death came to me only on this chapter reread, and it actually surprised me, although, I am a bit surprised I never say this before. I find Sansa's chapters rather painful to read and I have not looked into them to deeply or thought about them that much. And it has to do with the blood orange.

The Tower of the Hand seemed so empty after they left that Sansa was even pleased to see Arya when she went down to break her fast. "Where is everyone?" her sister wanted to know as she ripped the skin from a blood orange. "Did Father send them to hunt down Jaime Lannister?" AGOT-Sansa III

"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

"Liar," Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

"Go ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace." She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.

"You have juice on your face, Your Grace," Arya said.

It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again. "You're horrible," she screamed at her sister. "They should have killed you instead of Lady!" AGOT-Sansa III

Sansa stalked away with her head up. She was to be a queen, and queens did not cry. At least not where people could see. When she reached her bedchamber, she barred the door and took off her dress. The blood orange had left a blotchy red stain on the silk. "I hate her!" she screamed. She balled up the dress and flung it into the cold hearth, on top of the ashes of last night's fire. When she saw that the stain had bled through onto her underskirt, she began to sob despite herself. She ripped off the rest of her clothes wildly, threw herself into bed, and cried herself back to sleep. AGOT-Sasna III

The blood orange is interesting because it will later be associated with Dorne, both in the plopping of overripe fruit to the marble in the Water Gardens, but also just in relation to the author telling us that Blood Oranges are grown in Dorne, just like Lemon's are associated with Dorne. But these bit's of information come later, and I am not even looking into the Dorne aspect right now.

At first, we just get introduced to the idea of Arya sitting and "ripping the skin" off of a blood orange. Knowing that Arya's future takes her to the House of Black and White and the faceless men who peel the skin off of people to wear as disguises, I can't believe that this incident with Arya never stood out to me before.

And then, we see that same peeled blood orange hurled at Sansa, hitting her square in the forehead, leaving a sticky, dripping mess and then falls to Sansa's lap, where it stains her pristine ivory gown, a gown that had been a gift from Cersei! The mess is noted to be juice, but the implication, I think, is that it's blood!

Then, we later see Sansa crying over her stained dress, a stain that falls directly into her lap, perhaps hinting at the area around Sansa's womanhood. I am not sure exactly what to do with this aspect of the passage. But Arya taking skin off a blood orange than then makes contact with her sister's face makes me think "my god, is Arya going to take her sister's face???" I love Arya's character but this might be too dark, even for me to forgive. And I don't love Sansa that much but... Now, this doesn't mean that Arya needs to kill Sansa, and Sansa might already be dead at the time she might claim her sister's face. So, what could kill Sansa? Perhaps it has something to do with the bloody/juicy stain on her lap, near her womanhood? It's also interesting that in this scene Arya angrily refers to Sansa as "your grace". Now, I don't know if this passage was initially written by GRRM when he planned for Sansa to marry Joff and become his queen, or if this is an implication for Sansa still becoming queen. And if she does, my attention turns to Young Griff/Aegon.

But back to this idea of Arya peeling Sansa's face, reminds me of the idea we get from the Ghost of High Heart, who foresaw a "maid with purple snakes in her hair" which seems to be Sansa, and also the same "maid" slaying a giant in a castle made of snow.

I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." ASOS-Arya VIII

The implication is that both of these rolls will be served by Sansa, although I have read the idea that one of them could be Arya in disguise as Sansa, I guess I never believed it possible until I really though about this peeling the blood orange and hurling it at Sansa's face, leaving a sticky, dripping mess. Part of me really thinks that what the GoHH saw was Sansa making a snow castle in the Eyrie and ripping off Sweetrobin's dolls head, but now I wonder if I haven't been naive. And by gosh, I can't forget that the GoHH called Arya "blood child" who "smelled of death". Blood child now makes me think of this blood orange and the act of Arya angrily ripping it's skin off. Yikes!

I know this last bit had nothing what so ever to do with the parentage mystery that this reread is looking into, but GRRM put such lovely foreshadowing into his early writing, especially in A Game of Thrones, that it's hard for me to bypass this without at least commenting on it. And what it might mean!

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

Nyx
Theon Greyjoy

Fighting ALL the battles, in my mind. Always! Of course.

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1.44 Sansa III May 24, 2019 15:53:25 GMT via Tapatalk stdaga likes this

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Post by Nyx on May 24, 2019 15:53:25 GMT

“Everyone knows that dreams are prophetic “

I always wondered if that’s meant for us. I remember thinking how important Ned’s dream was and how it lead me to R+L=J

Notes on Sansa: she doesn’t want someone brave and kind. I feel bad for what’s about to happen to her but how ironic that sounds considering...

I also think that’s while her romantic aspirations are endearing it sounds like deep down she may not be quite the delicate flower, after all she seems pretty curious about seeing Ser Beric having that head on a spike in KL, no?

“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”

stdaga
Vhagar

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1.44 Sansa III May 24, 2019 18:56:57 GMT Nyx likes this

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Post by stdaga on May 24, 2019 18:56:57 GMT

May 24, 2019 15:53:25 GMT Nyx said:

“Everyone knows that dreams are prophetic “

I always wondered if that’s meant for us. I remember thinking how important Ned’s dream was and how it lead me to R+L=J

Do you mean the toj fever dream? While we are told that dreams can be prophetic, GRRM has also gone out of his way to tell us that dream is not literal, and we should be careful in how we interpret it.

A funny thing about this line from Sansa about prophetic dreams is that she is actually claiming she had dream about Joff and the white heart, but it's a lie. It's only a wish on her part, so not a dream at all. Still, I do think she is tied to prophetic knowledge!

May 24, 2019 15:53:25 GMT Nyx said:

Notes on Sansa: she doesn’t want someone brave and kind. I feel bad for what’s about to happen to her but how ironic that sounds considering...

I also think that’s while her romantic aspirations are endearing it sounds like deep down she may not be quite the delicate flower, after all she seems pretty curious about seeing Ser Beric having that head on a spike in KL, no?

Yes, Sansa is pretty casual about talking about heads on gates, etc. It's almost like it's unreal to her until she is faced with Ned's head, and many other people from the Stark household that are lining the walls of Maegor's hold fast. Even her brutality in spiking the head of Sweetrobin's doll is pretty viscious! I think she has a cold and cruel streak within her, and perhaps that is what is helping her to survive?

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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1.44 Sansa III

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Post by Nyx on May 24, 2019 15:53:25 GMT

Post by stdaga on May 24, 2019 18:56:57 GMT