Anyone have any ideas about PJ's take on this? I need to re watch, but I think he convinced me it was, well, I won't spoil it. Hang tight, I'll include the rest of the series:
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Given that GRRM decided to confirm that Stannis is still alive a few days ago, we know the pink letter's a fake. It's just really a question of figuring out who faked it now
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Given that GRRM decided to confirm that Stannis is still alive a few days ago, we know the pink letter's a fake. It's just really a question of figuring out who faked it now
Well yes, the easiest guess imo is Ramsay, well it appears to be written by Ramsay. Although, I thought he brought up a good point about Mance. I just don't fully understand Mance's motives, but that's why I need to watch the videos again.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Haven't seen the PJ videos that I remember, and haven't had a chance to look now, but I read a theory a while back that it may have been Theon who wrote it. Possibly at the directive of Stannis. It made quite a bit of sense. I think it was on cantuse's WP blog.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Well yes, the easiest guess imo is Ramsay, well it appears to be written by Ramsay. Although, I thought he brought up a good point about Mance. I just don't fully understand Mance's motives, but that's why I need to watch the videos again.
I'm not sure who wrote it, but I don't think it's Ramsay as PJ points out all the problems with the letter if it had been written by him.
My gut reaction when I first read the pink letter was Aliser Thorne however. Just the way the letter repeatedly calls Jon bastard is exactly what Thorne does. But never been able to reconcile how Thorne would know that Jon sent Mance to Winterfell
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Given that GRRM decided to confirm that Stannis is still alive a few days ago, we know the pink letter's a fake. It's just really a question of figuring out who faked it now
Stannis is alive at the beginning of TWoW whether the pink letter is a fake or not. We already know that, there's a sample Theon chapter with Stannis in it -- GRRM was saying nothing new.
However, chapters do not occur in strict chronological order. The pink letter arrives at the wall AFTER the events in that Theon chapter in TWoW. It's entirely possible that by the time the pink letter was written, Stannis was dead.
Given that GRRM decided to confirm that Stannis is still alive a few days ago, we know the pink letter's a fake. It's just really a question of figuring out who faked it now
Stannis is alive at the beginning of TWoW whether the pink letter is a fake or not. We already know that, there's a sample Theon chapter with Stannis in it -- GRRM was saying nothing new.
However, chapters do not occur in strict chronological order. The pink letter arrives at the wall AFTER the events in that Theon chapter in TWoW. It's entirely possible that by the time the pink letter was written, Stannis was dead.
Well he said he's alive in his books. If he'd died in ADWD then he couldn't really say that.
That aside, what's the actual basis for thinking that the Theon chapter occurs before Jon's? Unless GRRM has commented on the chronology then isn't the only basis for thinking that the Jon chapter is after the Theon chapter based on the fact that the letter claims that the Battle for Winterfell has occurred? Of which if the letter is a fake, then the battle does not yet need to have happened and there'd be no basis for thinking Jon's chapter is after Theon's
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Given that GRRM decided to confirm that Stannis is still alive a few days ago, we know the pink letter's a fake. It's just really a question of figuring out who faked it now
I'm with Kingmonkey on this one. Would George really just drop a spoiler like that? I mean, I suppose he could. Just seems odd.
As far as Mance writing the letter, I'm open to the idea. But I see no reason for Mance to have some kind of secret plot to take Eastwatch with an army of giants led by Tormund. Mance's people are already on the other side of the wall; what's the point in attacking the Watch now? You're already behind their defenses. There's no longer a tactical reason to fight the watch, and Mance doesn't strike me as stupid enough to do so out of spite.
Jon flipping out and marching on Winterfell is probably the most predictable result of his reading the letter, so I just ask: who wants this to happen? It works for Mel, who may want reinforcements for Stannis (and influence over Jon). It works for Mance, who may want to get bailed out. It works for Stannis. It's a risk, but a plausible one, for Ramsay. If fArya is exposed, his hold on Winterfell could evaporate. So while he should have no interest in another hostile army marching on him (unless he's crazy), it is perhaps worthwhile to try to bluff Jon into returning the woman who legitimizes his claim on the north.
Post by Direwolf Blitzer on Sept 15, 2015 12:20:01 GMT
Another thought on this one: Bowen Marsh is an idiot.
If you're Bowen Marsh, isn't this letter a godsend? You don't like Jon, you don't like the free folk, and you're convinced both are destroying the watch. Then, as if by magic, a letter shows up and now Jon is gonna pack all the wildlings up and march to battle. Against a superior force. In a fortified position. In the winter. These guys should be lending him their mittens and a mug of hot chocolate and wishing him the best. Instead... they stab him in the belly?
Whatever else Bowen Marsh is, he's a competent accountant. Why the hell is he kicking this giant anthill? I know he wants to kill or expel the wildlings, but I don't think he's dumb enough to believe he can.
Everything in the letter was deliberately written in order to get Jon to break his vows and come to Winterfell.
With you on this 100%, and in fact, maybe I'm even on the Mance train. I actually started typing a response arguing not-Mance, but I think I changed my mind halfway-through. I am now going to word vomit on this page as I try to gather my own thoughts.
Mance Wrote the Letter
We know Mance had some kind of personal goal in going to Winterfell; he admits as much when he gets the spearwives together. And what do the spearwives do? They try to seduce their way into the crypts. Fair to assume, then, that Mance wants to get into the crypts. Does it follow, then, that with his operation blown, he goes to Plan B: Invite an army of my friends down here? I say: Yes, very possibly. He's a King, after all. Why not summon the hordes, and your on-again off-again buddy Jon Snow, who surely has useful knowledge.
Mance Didn't Act Alone
We know his operation is blown. Most of his spearwives are confirmed dead, and one of them is masquerading as the girl who is masquerading as Arya. So where the hell is he? Winterfell cannot be safe for Mance without a patron. So if he did write it, he's either outside the walls with the Umbers, or being protected by Manderly, IMO. He can't even get paper and a raven without a patron.
I will quibble with you a little, in the interest of fostering discussion:
Good convo guys. I'm not sold on Mance as Jon's father but I am sold on Mance writing the letter. And, to Mojo's question in the OP, I'm even leaning towards PJ's idea that Mance wants something from WF's crypts. The horn makes sense, but it need not be. He's definitely trying to raid the manse in any case.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I doubt this. Mance looked for the Horn of Joramun to bring down the Wall through magic. And as a former brother he'd know that the Wall is more than just ice and stone, hence why he went for the Horn. He's fought the Others and the dead. He and Dalla seemingly talk about the Horned Lord, a sorcerer King-beyond-the-Wall, quite a bit. He mentions that he tries to imitate Bael the Bard when he snuck into Winterfell so perhaps he also tries to imitate the Horned Lord too hence why he knows so much about him. His wife seems to have been part of a secret old god magic society. He understands that so long as he wears the ruby he's Mel's slave. And he seemingly managed to ditch the ruby once he left the Wall seeing as Theon never notes it in Winterfell. He understands why Mel wanted to burn him (and witnessed what burning Rattleshirt did to Lightbringer - see my signature - so he'd know doubly know after why she wanted to burn him as his blood would have magicked Lightbringer even more). He knows how to fight even when glamoured so he's either done it before or he quickly adapted. Etc.
If Mance knows nothing about magic or how to perform magic, I'd be incredibly surprised.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I doubt this. Mance looked for the Horn of Joramun to bring down the Wall through magic. And as a former brother he'd know that the Wall is more than just ice and stone, hence why he went for the Horn. He's fought the Others and the dead. He and Dalla seemingly talk about the Horned Lord, a sorcerer King-beyond-the-Wall, quite a bit. He mentions that he tries to imitate Bael the Bard when he snuck into Winterfell so perhaps he also tries to imitate the Horned Lord too hence why he knows so much about him. His wife seems to have been part of a secret old god magic society. He understands that so long as he wears the ruby he's Mel's slave. And he seemingly managed to ditch the ruby once he left the Wall seeing as Theon never notes it in Winterfell. He understands why Mel wanted to burn him (and witnessed what burning Rattleshirt did to Lightbringer - see my signature - so he'd know doubly know after why she wanted to burn him as his blood would have magicked Lightbringer even more). He knows how to fight even when glamoured so he's either done it before or he quickly adapted. Etc.
If Mance knows nothing about magic or how to perform magic, I'd be incredibly surprised.
Good stuff! Waymar Royce, Mance is not. /yoda speak
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
One last thing I forgot: Mance left Craster's clan alone when for every other wildling clan he insisted on defeating them so that he could mold the wildlings into one force. This is despite Craster telling us that every time Mance sent him a messenger (and that itself is curious as we're told that Mance went village by village himself defeating them) he'd cut out their tongues before sending them back. Craster openly antagonized and defied him, but Mance never forced the issue like he did with all the other clans. And Craster happens to be sacrificing to the Others, and we know that Mance believes that he can't fight the Others as he's been defeated every time he tried to. So Mance likely left Craster alone because he believed that he couldn't defeat Craster (or rather, the ones he believed were backing Craster)
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Mel is like a drunk person hitting on everyone at the party, except instead of wanting to sleep with you she wants to burn you alive.
I can get behind Mance having some sort of occult knowledge or interest, but full-on R'hllor-style glamoring? Eh. It's not very northern. Where would he have picked it up? How does one pick up magic in Westeros, anyway? The magic we've seen seems to be trained (red priests presumably study) or inborn (warging is almsot definitely in the blood). Could Mance just read a magic manual? Possible, possible. I remain stubbornly unconvinced.