Post by whitewolfstark on Sept 14, 2015 1:51:38 GMT
A new video from Preston Jacobs that I watched for entertainment, and in this one, I think he's on to something--by looking at how Sansa's failed to live up to her cover story with Myranda. The other parts with the missing shoe might or might not be relevant.
The important part is where Preston breaks down how Alayne goofs the conversation with Myranda, who seems to be a far better player than Sansa given how she tests Alayne on her cover story.
It makes me wonder if Sansa learning to be a player isn't her story arc after all.
I doubt that a shoe would fall anywhere near a body. I guess it's possible, but there's quite a big difference in weight and how far off course the wind could blow it. Who knows if Lysa even landed anywhere near her own shoes or if her body was ever found or landed in a position on the mountain where it was actually recoverable and not just a giant grease spot. I do agree and believe it's likely that Myranda was looking for something on the way down the mountain and likely discovered several inconsistencies in Sansa's cover story.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Post by Direwolf Blitzer on Sept 14, 2015 19:06:43 GMT
This man leaps from plausible to certain so damn fast. Like Nestor Royce is walking around out there looking for splattered dead ladies and their shoes. "Oy, m'lord! Looks like we got m'lady's brains 'ere, but we's missin' a shoe!" "Keep searching, you imbeciles! We will not bury our lady without her shoes!" wtf.
And I do question the logistics of harp-playing and/or littlefingering with broken fingers. Never seen anyone play the harp with one hand, anyway.
But the rest of it is pretty solidly reasoned. I had forgotten, if ever I knew, that Royce wanted to marry his daughter to Harry. Only natural that he'd be extra vigilant regarding the man who usurped him, Littlefinger. Jacobs' whole read of the Randa/Alayne conversation strikes me as spot on as well. Myranda Royce, whether in concert with her father or not, would be foolish not to try to get some info out of Alayne. So I'll agree with Mr. Jacobs that the Royces are engaged in some politiciking here.
But what do they want, and what do they hope to achieve? Nestor (and Randa herself, even) may wish to marry Randa to Harry, but he's off the table. Do they think they can somehow expose Sansa and thereby break up the marriage? It strikes me that Alayne being revealed as Sansa makes that marriage highly desirable for Harry and Lady Waynwood. So how do they get Harry back on the market? They either depose Littlefinger, or they kill Sansa, IMO.
Which makes one wonder: Is Nestor in this by himself, or is there some kind of Lords Declarant jiggery pokery going on behind the scenes? If the goal is to depose LF, Nestor's gonna need some help.
But what if Randa Royce is playing her own game of "fuck, marry, kill," and has chosen to fuck Marillion, marry *Sweetrobin,* and kill Harry? I mean, fuck Harry the Heir, right? Who is this guy and why does anyone care? He's a widow's ward! If he bites it, who's going to be especially upset? He has no one behind him but Waynwood, and he's not even her son, just her ward. And killing the heir to the Vale would stir up an epic Littlefinger-style shitstorm.
This man leaps from plausible to certain so damn fast. Like Nestor Royce is walking around out there looking for splattered dead ladies and their shoes. "Oy, m'lord! Looks like we got m'lady's brains 'ere, but we's missin' a shoe!" "Keep searching, you imbeciles! We will not bury our lady without her shoes!" wtf.
And I do question the logistics of harp-playing and/or littlefingering with broken fingers. Never seen anyone play the harp with one hand, anyway.
Yeah, the missing shoe angle I didn't really take large notice of and thought it the lesser part of the video.
As for the logistics of harp playing and littlefingering (lol) I think that one is squarely on Martin's shoulders.
But the rest of it is pretty solidly reasoned. I had forgotten, if ever I knew, that Royce wanted to marry his daughter to Harry. Only natural that he'd be extra vigilant regarding the man who usurped him, Littlefinger. Jacobs' whole read of the Randa/Alayne conversation strikes me as spot on as well. Myranda Royce, whether in concert with her father or not, would be foolish not to try to get some info out of Alayne. So I'll agree with Mr. Jacobs that the Royces are engaged in some politiciking here.
But what do they want, and what do they hope to achieve? Nestor (and Randa herself, even) may wish to marry Randa to Harry, but he's off the table. Do they think they can somehow expose Sansa and thereby break up the marriage? It strikes me that Alayne being revealed as Sansa makes that marriage highly desirable for Harry and Lady Waynwood. So how do they get Harry back on the market? They either depose Littlefinger, or they kill Sansa, IMO.
The meat of the video and the reason why I posted it was the analysis of the Myranda/Alayne conversation. It shows Sansa fumbling at playing the game, as well as that the Valelords have their own plays to make.
Which makes one wonder: Is Nestor in this by himself, or is there some kind of Lords Declarant jiggery pokery going on behind the scenes? If the goal is to depose LF, Nestor's gonna need some help.
Recall that Jocelyn Stark married the younger son of the Lord of the Cadet Branch Royces a few generations back (Rickard Stark's Aunt to be precise, so Sansa's grandfather's sister), and had three daughters, who married a Waynwood, Corbray, and Templeton. IMO it makes sense that there's a political alliance going on between the Waynwoods, Corbrays, and Templetons through their Cadet Branch Royce connections. IMO Anya Waynwood, the Corbrays, and Symond Templeton's mothers all were sisters, daughters of Jocelyn Stark and Benedict Royce. We're told of Jocelyn Stark's daugthers in ASOS by Catelyn, which is likely Martin setting up a lens to decipher or at least leaving a hint for how to view the subsequent politicking in the Vale chapters to come through Sansa.
But what if Randa Royce is playing her own game of "fuck, marry, kill," and has chosen to fuck Marillion, marry *Sweetrobin,* and kill Harry? I mean, fuck Harry the Heir, right? Who is this guy and why does anyone care? He's a widow's ward! If he bites it, who's going to be especially upset? He has no one behind him but Waynwood, and he's not even her son, just her ward. And killing the heir to the Vale would stir up an epic Littlefinger-style shitstorm.
We see in the Alayne preview chapter to TWOW, Myranda seems to still have her eyes on Harry, as she purposely sets them to "race to the gate" and purposely loses by going too slow and allowing Alayne arrive out of breath and all disheveled, which causes Harry to form a negative opinion of Alayne upon meeting her, from which Alayne has to recover Harry's good opinion (all while holding her nose) during the subsequent ball. So Myranda seems to still have her eyes on Harry.
The only problem though I see with killing Harry is that he is the ward of Anya Waynwood, which I speculate once again is her kin.
So Anya I'm guessing is kin to Myranda is my guess based on the above speculation. It's speculation, to be sure, but I think we're given more than enough hints of its possibility in the book. Killing her cousin's ward is what Myranda would be doing.
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 17, 2015 16:15:29 GMT
I actually like the missing shoe observation, because GRRM does seem to like to make oblique references to myths and fairy tales throughout the books (especially when he has a chance to invert them).
I thought it pretty obvious that Myranda at least was pretty suspicious of Littlefinger's cover story about Lysa's death, and I agree that Sansa has probably given away her identity in their conversation. And I agree that Nestor probably has his sights set on something higher than the Gates of the Moon. After all why be so grateful for Littlefinger giving him something that he already has.
In general I really like how Preston Jacobs goes about analyzing the books. While Martin likes to reference common myths and stories, I don't think the way to figure his mysteries out is by analogies to other well known stories. I think for Martin the devil is in the details, and Preston usually does a pretty good job of pointing out interesting details that I may have missed in my read.
Post by whitewolfstark on Sept 17, 2015 23:42:28 GMT
And apparently he didn't want to let go of his shoe hypothesis. So much that he's done an update to defend it using math... the thing GRRM shrinks back from and hisses at.