I wouldn't welcome a drunken brute who kept saying another woman's name into my bed either. No means no, and if Robert wanted more, he should have made himself desired.
I'm guessing that love didn't have anything to do with it and Lyanna did get the drunken brute treatment at some point. Something Robert couldn't remember clearly or rationalized after the fact. Why does a jealous man obsess over someone else raping the woman he wanted to own 'thousands and thousands' of times, unless he's guilty himself.
We have Ned's dream of Lyanna's statue weeping tears of blood and Sansa's observation of the statue of the weeping woman at the Eyrie, broken in two and half buried in the ground. We're being shown something by Martin. He's the guy who is 'showing and not telling'. But really, I think this is a 'tell'.
But once we move beyond those 13, and learn more about the circumstances of the rebellion, I think it does become very tough to make a case for "R"LJ. Again, I like it, but I think you make the same mistake as so many others by viewing the relationship from Robert's point of view.
If we are going to make a case for Lyanna being Jon Snow's mother, she should be our starting point – not her sperm donor.
If we begin with Lyanna, she herself names Robert as an unwanted donor.
On the contra i think you made the same mistake looking at an early moment in time and pretty much saying all variables within just stood still just like that moment.We know that time waits for no one and things change. Joffery went from being a dashing prince in Sansas eyes to being a monster.Khal Drogo went from being this savage barbarian to Dany's sun and stars.Long face Ned became the love of Cats life.
There is also nothing wrong with viewing the relationship from Roberts point of view and even Ned for that matter.Lyanna died,and Robert and Ned remained alive so we must look to them.Time didn't stop for them, it stopped for Lyanna.We can look to them and their behavior and know exactly if the relationship was nothing but a figment in Roberts head that extended to Ned,or if it was more.
I have to say given what Ned and Robert are describing Lyanna and Roberts relationship did progress beyond Lyannas misgivings.She was wrong,love did change Robert and the loss of it changed him again.
I guess it is possible, but I don't see how it would be likely. Lyanna looked like Ned and was the Lord's only daughter. If she turned up at White Harbor, I think people would recognize her.
Voice,Voice you know better. Nobody knew Arya,nobody knew Sansa.Lyanna dressing like a proper lady or like a lady period instead of looking tomboyish traveling with Ned is hardly going to hit anyone's radar.
We don't know whether Brandon inquired about Lyanna or not. Certainly the man had more to say than "Come out and die!" after he was captured.
One doesn't yell come out and die first.Just as one doesn't kill the only person who knows where your fiancee is before they tell you.Which means the when X is known is important.
Because it doesn't reveal the secret. I am all for questioning GRRM's reasons to say what he says, but if we dismiss both text (Lyanna's protest, Robert's belief that Rhaegar raped her) and SSMs in favor of head-canon, that doesn't make for a well-supported theory.
It does...You must play musical hats for who is banging the maiden if you believe RLJ.If you believe Ned is the father cool.He could have banged anyone in between.But this a problem more for R+L=J.The text isn't being dismissed but at the end of the day one doesn't take the President from the WH in an unmarked car at night only to drive him to the next place anyone would be sure to look.
So in a story where we have decoys being employed constantly and peoples identity being concealed or switched the 'cloaked an hooded' figure Jamie saw or the woman in Queen's chamber may not have been Rhaella.There is no reason to be specific about the attire unless its to make the point that Jamie' eye witness account is flawed.He didn't actually see Rhaella.
In the end your reasons for why not Robert doesn't old water.You assume Lyanna's protests and feelings towards Robert didn't change because he changed her mind about him.
You ignore Robert and Ned's behavior re Lyanna.If one looks at actions Lyanna and Roberts relationship progressed.
You ignore the themes in the books on the unrealiability of the narrator.The heart lies but the eyes see true.Remember that.
I don't think the argument that Lyanna learned to love Robert or that she changed him in some way is actually relevant. It's seems more likely to me that she spent time at the Eyrie after the brouhaha at the tourney for her own safety and Robert may have insisted since she was his betrothed. I don't doubt that Robert loved her in that first love obsessive jealous manner of someone with little self control.
I also think it's likely that he is Bael the Bard of this tale in that he made off with her virginity. That his obsession with Rhaegar raping Lyanna thousands and thousands of times is a symptom of his own guilty mind and inability to take responsibility for her disappearance. I don't think Lyanna is a match or Robert in a contest of strength; especially if he was in his cups. Considering that Ned couldn't even lift Robert's warhammer, something that was used to cave in Rhaegar's chest through his breast plate.
I go back to the statue of the weeping woman at the Eyrie with a broken arm and half buried in the ground. Something that Sansa's sees that may represent Lyanna given Ned's dream of Lyanna's statue weeping tears of blood.
A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together …"
I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let
I don't think the argument that Lyanna learned to love Robert or that she changed him in some way is actually relevant. It's seems more likely to me that she spent time at the Eyrie after the brouhaha at the tourney for her own safety and Robert may have insisted since she was his betrothed. I don't doubt that Robert loved her in that first love obsessive jealous manner of someone with little self control.
I also think it's likely that he is Bael the Bard of this tale in that he made off with her virginity. That his obsession with Rhaegar raping Lyanna thousands and thousands of times is a symptom of his own guilty mind and inability to take responsibility for her disappearance. I don't think Lyanna is a match or Robert in a contest of strength; especially if he was in his cups. Considering that Ned couldn't even lift Robert's warhammer, something that was used to cave in Rhaegar's chest through his breast plate.
I go back to the statue of the weeping woman at the Eyrie with a broken arm and half buried in the ground. Something that Sansa's sees that may represent Lyanna given Ned's dream of Lyanna's statue weeping tears of blood.
A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together …"
I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let
Depending on what side you are on it i think its relevant.That aside for now,Robert and rum don't mix and we have seen examples of what happens when he does.So i could imagine a scenario where he drunk to much,raped Lyanna and have no clue what he did.
That would be effed up though and under such circumstances i wouldn't tell Robert either if a child came from that.Talk about self hate.Every time he looked at Jon all he would see is that staring him dead in the eyes.
But i think the conversation Ned had with Lyanna is important because they were having an arguement of ideology in truth.
Ned's point was love would make Robert faithful.
Lyanna was love wouldn't change his nature.
This says nothing about her feelings towards Robert.She never said she didn't want to marry him.Or that she wasn't going to.
Flash foward Ned from his reunion with Robert know there is no love.That's why the interpretation of the Brothel chapter by some baffles me.Why think about that conversation in its entirety when we know love is not the case with him and Cersie.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
On the contra i think you made the same mistake looking at an early moment in time and pretty much saying all variables within just stood still just like that moment.We know that time waits for no one and things change. Joffery went from being a dashing prince in Sansas eyes to being a monster.Khal Drogo went from being this savage barbarian to Dany's sun and stars.Long face Ned became the love of Cats life.
All true. But we have no evidence that Lyanna's feeling for Robert ever changed.
There is also nothing wrong with viewing the relationship from Roberts point of view and even Ned for that matter.Lyanna died,and Robert and Ned remained alive so we must look to them.Time didn't stop for them, it stopped for Lyanna.We can look to them and their behavior and know exactly if the relationship was nothing but a figment in Roberts head that extended to Ned,or if it was more.
Robert and Ned did outlive Lyanna, but that does not mean we have to neglect her point of view.
We are given precious little information with which to construct the character of Lyanna Stark, so I require more convincing if I am to discard some of that information.
To do so seems intellecually dishonest to me. Rather than shave off the edges we do not like, such as her protest and reservations regarding Robert, and dull the iron underneath her beauty, I prefer to leave them in tact and appreciate her for who she was given the information as presented.
Given her sense of worth and beliefs as a woman, Robert is not a very good candidate.
It's not impossible. And I would rank him above Rhaegar in terms of liklihood for Jon's father. I just don't find him a very good candidate if we approach the events within Lyanna's uterus from Lyanna's own point of view.
I have to say given what Ned and Robert are describing Lyanna and Roberts relationship did progress beyond Lyannas misgivings.She was wrong,love did change Robert and the loss of it changed him again.
I'm not seeing the evidence of that.
What I see is Lyanna's intuition coming true. Robert's nature did not change. He did not keep to one bed. He sired many bastards.
If we approach Lyanna's sexual interests from her own perspective, it appears that Robert's "love" was not returned. Ned believes that Robert loved Lyanna, just as Barristan believes that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.
But neither man claims Lyanna loved the other.
This is where I begin, when theory-crafting a parentage scenario for Jon in which Lyanna is his mother.
Who would Lyanna fuck?
- A married man with a sick wife and two kids? - A womanizer who only sees her beauty?
No. These don't sound right to me. Howland Reed stands a better chance. He's the only man not related to Lyanna that the text tells us had a relationship with Lyanna.
Then I ask myself, whose child would Lyanna carry to term?
We know she is far less-approving of bastards than even Catelyn Tully, which is saying something! So it would make more sense if the child were not a bastard. We have no evidence Lyanna ever married though, so I must ask myself, whose child would Lyanna not mind carrying, in spite of the child's bastardy?
Voice,Voice you know better. Nobody knew Arya,nobody knew Sansa.Lyanna dressing like a proper lady or like a lady period instead of looking tomboyish traveling with Ned is hardly going to hit anyone's radar.
Mayhaps. Arya and Sansa were not hiding in the north. Arya might blend in Flea Bottom or Braavos, but in the North, I think people would know her for a Stark. (See everyone recognizing Jon Snow as a child of Stark blood)
Sansa is easier to conceal, given her Tully coloring. But I think even she would be recognized in White Harbor. Her mother had a hard time hiding at the Crossroads Inn, you will recall. Even dead, people recognize Catelyn Stoneheart.
But anyway, Sansa's appearance isn't really applicable to Lyanna. Lyanna had the Stark face. If we were spitballing about her blending in amidst the dock workers of Braavos, or even King's Landing, I could see it. But at White Harbor, people would know the look far too well.
One doesn't yell come out and die first.Just as one doesn't kill the only person who knows where your fiancee is before they tell you.Which means the when X is known is important.
This, I like.
I've viewed these events as the machinations of Jon Arryn. Jon wanted to go to war, Rickard did not (and never did).
In that vein, I've always assumed that Jon Arryn spread rumors that Rhaegar raped and killed Lyanna, and that Rickard had his doubts. Brandon, being wolf-blooded, did not question and merely reacted to the horrible rumor. Rickard, in seeking to calm the tensions that were beginning to boil over, answered the summons of the King.
But your angle works too. Another clink! So what do you propose Brandon knew/was told? If he knew Lyanna's location, but felt compelled to kill Rhaegar anyway, then I would think Brandon must have had confirmation that Lyanna had indeed been raped by Rhaegar [if not from Lyanna herself, a credible source (such as Rickard)]. And, such a report might have indeed existed! It would explain this:
"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore. "What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!" "You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered. "That did not bring her back." Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. "The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown … it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe … and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike."
The bold is a strong statement. We know what Robert did at the Trident. If Ned believes that Robert avenged Lyanna there, that's a strong indication that Rhaegar truly did mistreat her.
And regarding Robert's killing of Rhaegar before learning Lyanna's whereabouts, I like this angle too.
But of course, the counterargument exists that we do not know whether or not Robert asked Rhaegar about Lyanna's location. He may well might have. Our only accounts of the clash come secondhand, and the details of their exchange are not available.
I think we should add this to our list of questions for GRRM: Did Robert ask Rhaegar about Lyanna and her whereabouts when the two met at the Trident?
It does...You must play musical hats for who is banging the maiden if you believe RLJ.
Agreed. And I come back to my old argument in Heresy. Such an theory ignores Lyanna's intelligence, strength, and defiant nature.
It also neglects Rhaegar's intelligence, melancholy, and dutiful nature.
It is hard for me to imagine a Lyanna that carries a bastard to term that was put in her belly by a married father of two, who had abducted her.
It is just as hard for me to imagine a Rhaegar that abandons his sick wife and young children to steal a fourteen year old girl betrothed to his cousin, at a time when tensions are already high in the realm.
Rhaegar was too smart, Lyanna was too defiant. RLJ, for me, simply doesn't make sense for either character.
If you believe Ned is the father cool.He could have banged anyone in between.
Ned, Brandon, Benjen, and Howland are all far more plausible candidates to me than Robert. The three Starks could sire a son with the Stark look. If one of them bedded Lyanna to do so, that would pretty much guarantee it. All four men are connected to Lyanna, and Lyanna had affection for each of them.
A plus for Howland is that we know he has at least one brown haired child (Meera. ...I don't think we are ever told Jojen's hair color). This same plus exists for Ned. The author uses hair color, specifically, as a literary device for this very purpose: revealing secret parentages in ASOIAF. So this is a strong plus for all potential sires that have brown-haired (and long-faced) children.
This plus is also a strong negative for Robert's candidacy. Robert's bastards have black hair even when their mother has "yellow hair."
But this a problem more for R+L=J.The text isn't being dismissed but at the end of the day one doesn't take the President from the WH in an unmarked car at night only to drive him to the next place anyone would be sure to look.
I'm not sure who/what you are referring to here. Rhaegar, or Lyanna? What evidence do we have of either traveling in secrecy? What evidence do we have that either turned up in a place anyone would be sure to look?
It seems for Rhaegar, the only place people would be sure to look would be King's Landing, Dragonstone, or Summerhall. For Lyanna, the only place people would expect her to be is Winterfell.
So in a story where we have decoys being employed constantly and peoples identity being concealed or switched the 'cloaked an hooded' figure Jamie saw or the woman in Queen's chamber may not have been Rhaella.There is no reason to be specific about the attire unless its to make the point that Jamie' eye witness account is flawed.He didn't actually see Rhaella.
I have made no arguments regarding Rhaella. I only argue that we have no reason to doubt GRRM's "8-9 months" age difference between Jon and Dany. And given the lack of information available, I'd rather have the SSM than nothing.
In the end your reasons for why not Robert doesn't old water.You assume Lyanna's protests and feelings towards Robert didn't change because he changed her mind about him.
You ignore Robert and Ned's behavior re Lyanna.If one looks at actions Lyanna and Roberts relationship progressed.
You ignore the themes in the books on the unrealiability of the narrator.The heart lies but the eyes see true.Remember that.
That doesn't seem very fair. I'm not ignoring any of that. And again, I quite like the idea of Robert+Lyanna=Jon. I'm the one that started that conversation in Heresy, so many moons ago.
I ran into trouble defending that idea, predictably, in the same places as you are now. Your theory fails to incorporate these pieces of information:
Robert is a weak candidate in this latter pool of evidence. First, Lyanna rebukes Robert quite earnestly. Second, we are told by Bran Stark that Robert waged a war to get Lyanna back (which means, Robert did not have Lyanna during the war). Third, all of Robert's bastards have black hair, and Jon Snow quite conspicuously does not.
1. Lyanna rebuked Robert for keeping to multiple beds and siring a bastard. 2. According to Bran Stark, Robert waged a war to get Lyanna back (thus Lyanna was not with him). 3. All of Robert's bastards have black hair, and in the books, Jon Snow does not have black hair.
Not only do they hold water, they are not at all interpretive. They're not even SSMs! They are pulled directly from the text.
We should shape our theories to fit the author's words. I understand quibbling over SSMs as they can be nefarious and purposefully misleading, but we must account for information published in the novels. If we neglect that, we are simply replacing canon with our own unsupported fiction because we like it more than the story written in the books.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
As far as hair color and eye color; black hair in an infant can lighten as they grow older to brown and Jon has dark brown hair rather than brown or light brown hair. Likewise a dark grey eye almost black can be characterized as slate grey or dark bluish-grey. Most newborns have blue or blue-grey eyes. So it wouldn't surprise me if Jon was started out looking like a Baratheon. Which would give Lyanna plenty of reasons to want to hide him and take some convincing on her part to get Ned's agreement.
"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore. "What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!" "You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered. "That did not bring her back." Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. "The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown … it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe … and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike."
The bold is a strong statement. We know what Robert did at the Trident. If Ned believes that Robert avenged Lyanna there, that's a strong indication that Rhaegar truly did mistreat her.
Whatever the nature of Lyanna's disgrace starting with the Tourney and ending with the story of her kidnapping and rape; Robert doesn't have closure. He is tortured by the kidnappiing and rape; something that he goes over thousands and thousands of times over the years in his own mind. When Ned says that he avenged her at the Trident; I don't see that as agreement with Robert; but an attempt to bring Robert to closure.
The pivotal moment of the Lizard King's career as an ace came during the Summer of Love when a confrontation between Douglas and his fans against the National Guard exploded into violence. Amid the chaos the Lizard King was confronted by the first Hardhat, a fiercely conservative ace immigrant, and would have been badly injured, possibly even killed, if it were not for the intervention of the Radical
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I take this to be one of Martin's inverted tropes where Ned is cast in the role of radical/rebel and Howland is the Lizard (lion) King. The first 'hardhat', Arthur Dayne.
I take this to be one of Martin's inverted tropes where Ned is cast in the role of radical/rebel and Howland is the Lizard (lion) King. The first 'hardhat', Arthur Dayne.
Very cool. And I must respectfully bow to your use of Wild Cards material. I keep trying to read it and as hard as I try, I just can't get into it.
But this argument doesn't work for one obvious reason: Kit Harrington is not a character in the books.
In the books, GRRM wrote Jon Snow to be brown of hair, and Robert's bastards to be black of hair.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I take this to be one of Martin's inverted tropes where Ned is cast in the role of radical/rebel and Howland is the Lizard (lion) King. The first 'hardhat', Arthur Dayne.
Very cool. And I must respectfully bow to your use of Wild Cards material. I keep trying to read it and as hard as I try, I just can't get into it.
But this argument doesn't work for one obvious reason: Kit Harrington is not a character in the books.
In the books, GRRM wrote Jon Snow to be brown of hair, and Robert's bastards to be black of hair.
I'm being cheeky.
It's the subversions of tropes across his body of work that I find curious. Making Jon Snow into a Jim Morrison character on the show would be something that tickles his rib cage. He's done the same thing with Peter Dinklage in his reference to the Bar Sinister. That's a reference to Simon Bar Sinister and his nemesis Underdog. Except that in a DwD, Tyrion is the underdog chased by the Bar Sinister.
However, Howland Reed is climbing up my list of daddy candidates. A Lord of the crannogmen might very well be the horned lord or lizard lion as their sigil suggests. Along with the twin fawns and sleeping lion, that I keep harping on; there is this bit, that jumps out at me:
A Game of Thrones - Eddard I "She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean." "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."
Yes, I know context is everything, but so is sub-context.
Meera might have the sad tale of her mother from Howland; while Jon does not.
It's the subversions of tropes across his body of work that I find curious. Making Jon Snow into a Jim Morrison character on the show would be something that tickles his rib cage. He's done the same thing with Peter Dinklage in his reference to the Bar Sinister. That's a reference to Simon Bar Sinister and his nemesis Underdog. Except that in a DwD, Tyrion is the underdog chased by the Bar Sinister.
LOL! Well played! (I may be quick to quip, but I am often slow to wit the quips of others. LOL)
It's the subversions of tropes across his body of work that I find curious. Making Jon Snow into a Jim Morrison character on the show would be something that tickles his rib cage. He's done the same thing with Peter Dinklage in his reference to the Bar Sinister. That's a reference to Simon Bar Sinister and his nemesis Underdog. Except that in a DwD, Tyrion is the underdog chased by the Bar Sinister.
LOL! Well played! (I may be quick to quip, but I am often slow to wit the quips of others. LOL)
Well, if the only thing Martin wants to talk about is HBO and Wild Cards; then that's the question to ask.
Was Kit Harrington asked to dye his hair black so he would look more like Jim Morrison? He'd get the trope immediately and it's implied connection to the ToJ and lizard lion kings. That would cover all the bases.
I'd ask him on NotABlog if I could get an account created.
Well, if the only thing Martin wants to talk about is HBO and Wild Cards; then that's the question to ask.
Was Kit Harrington asked to dye his hair black so he would look more like Jim Morrison? He'd get the trope immediately and it's implied connection to the ToJ and lizard lion kings. That would cover all the bases.
I'd ask him on NotABlog if I could get an account created.
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"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."