Post by whitewolfstark on Jan 21, 2016 21:48:54 GMT
And Preston managed to tease out the political situation of Braavos, and managed to tease out that Arya's actions in Mercy... really just fucked over Braavos. The only question being is whether the Faceless Men wanted Arya to kill Raff the Sweetling or not, which I'm not sure he convinced me of yet. The best part of the video is where he manages to establish the political situation and just how dangerous a position it is in at the moment (threatening to have the status quo toppled), and just how Arya throws a spanner into the works without ever knowing that she did.
The best part of the video is where he manages to establish the political situation and just how dangerous a position it is in at the moment (threatening to have the status quo toppled), and just how Arya throws a spanner into the works without ever knowing that she did.
I have no idea how he finds these bits of information. Like this all just passed right over my head in every read through. Admittedly I find Arya kind of boring, but still you'd think that these kind of details would stand out the way that they seem to once they've been pointed out. Braavos is a clusterfuck right now, and Arya happens to keep popping up in the right places
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
The best part of the video is where he manages to establish the political situation and just how dangerous a position it is in at the moment (threatening to have the status quo toppled), and just how Arya throws a spanner into the works without ever knowing that she did.
I have no idea how he finds these bits of information. Like this all just passed right over my head in every read through. Admittedly I find Arya kind of boring, but still you'd think that these kind of details would stand out the way that they seem to once they've been pointed out. Braavos is a clusterfuck right now, and Arya happens to keep popping up in the right places
In my rereads, I'm finding that the political situations typically have a pattern to them. They're never outright stated beyond establishing what the status quo is. When reading for politics, pay attention to location and the kinds of people attracted to a specific location. For instance I just read Dany I in ADWD in my simultaneous re-read of AFFC & ADWD following the "A Feast with Dragons" reading list (it's actually rather awesome so far as it takes into account connections within books that I didn't notice reading them separately--though I'll admit I'm still seven chapters into the list), and what jumped out to me was just how quickly the Shavepate abandoned his own traditions so he could embrace the "new Mereen", that struck me as "Don't trust this guy any farther than you can throw him. If he's willing to throw cultural traditions under the bus in order to show his loyalty--he's got his own ulterior motives. Next I noticed that the Shavepate was eager to dis on House Pahl--who is suggested to be --and he keeps advocating violent and harsh ways. He clearly is trying to sabotage Dany by making her think he has her best interests, but is really there to persuade her into violent ends so that everyone will eventually turn on her and call for her removal. He also stokes this by appealing to his thoughts on how women think and feel saying that the women of House Pahl don't "forget or forgive", which strikes a chord with Dany as she recalls her own "don't forgive or forget" list of Usurper's Dogs she plans to take care of when she gets back to Westeros. It seems somehow the Shavepate knows or at least can guess this about Dany (not that hard to figure out, really, when she goes around proclaiming her Westerosi titles in addition to her Meereenese ones). Contrary to this is the Green Grace who is a voice for peace and trying to help establish a new status quo, and I think Dany in her first chapter is rather wise to be as associated with the Green Grace as she can. The Green Grace's relatives try and profit from this relationship, which shows that the Green Grace and her family aren't all on the same page (meaning that the political situation has houses divided among one another, with likely just as many for getting rid of Dany as there likely are for keeping her, though Dany's attempt at settling issues and injustices is done in a manner which satisfies no one, and is quite clearly upsetting all the social classes--even freedmen.
Political analysis: Dany is attempting to keep the peace after taking the city, with those who wish to get rid of her advocating to convince her into turning into a violent tyrant, while those advocating to keep her are attempting to forge a compromise that will keep the peace for now, but at the same time be unsatisfactory in the long run--and everything seems to be in a state of flux where it could still possibly go either way--all depending upon Dany's ability to choose between marrying or tyrannizing. And that's what I got out of the political situation that wasn't overtly stated in the chapter this time around. I also seem to recall that looking at the differences in pyramids (and thus the relative wealth of the slaver families) is likely another way to judge the political situation as pyramids that are more modest (like the Shavepate's) that are assaulting pyramids that are a bit more ornate (like the Pahl's) obviously are seeking to rise up in the world by striking down their former adversaries (just like you might compare LF's keep in the Fingers vs the grander castles of Riverrun or Winterfell). There's a lot of information to tease out, not all of it is outright stated, some of it is, and some of what is outright stated is a lie--with it being left up to the reader to determine which is which.
Likely another way to judge the wealth and politics of a petitioner is to judge their tokar, which is something I'm aiming to figure out this re-read. Which reminds me I need to make a Tokar Traker spreadsheet...
In my rereads, I'm finding that the political situations typically have a pattern to them. They're never outright stated beyond establishing what the status quo is. When reading for politics, pay attention to location and the kinds of people attracted to a specific location. For instance I just read Dany I in ADWD in my simultaneous re-read of AFFC & ADWD following the "A Feast with Dragons" reading list (it's actually rather awesome so far as it takes into account connections within books that I didn't notice reading them separately--though I'll admit I'm still seven chapters into the list), and what jumped out to me was just how quickly the Shavepate abandoned his own traditions so he could embrace the "new Mereen", that struck me as "Don't trust this guy any farther than you can throw him. If he's willing to throw cultural traditions under the bus in order to show his loyalty--he's got his own ulterior motives. Next I noticed that the Shavepate was eager to dis on House Pahl--who is suggested to be --and he keeps advocating violent and harsh ways. He clearly is trying to sabotage Dany by making her think he has her best interests, but is really there to persuade her into violent ends so that everyone will eventually turn on her and call for her removal. He also stokes this by appealing to his thoughts on how women think and feel saying that the women of House Pahl don't "forget or forgive", which strikes a chord with Dany as she recalls her own "don't forgive or forget" list of Usurper's Dogs she plans to take care of when she gets back to Westeros. It seems somehow the Shavepate knows or at least can guess this about Dany (not that hard to figure out, really, when she goes around proclaiming her Westerosi titles in addition to her Meereenese ones). Contrary to this is the Green Grace who is a voice for peace and trying to help establish a new status quo, and I think Dany in her first chapter is rather wise to be as associated with the Green Grace as she can. The Green Grace's relatives try and profit from this relationship, which shows that the Green Grace and her family aren't all on the same page (meaning that the political situation has houses divided among one another, with likely just as many for getting rid of Dany as there likely are for keeping her, though Dany's attempt at settling issues and injustices is done in a manner which satisfies no one, and is quite clearly upsetting all the social classes--even freedmen.
Political analysis: Dany is attempting to keep the peace after taking the city, with those who wish to get rid of her advocating to convince her into turning into a violent tyrant, while those advocating to keep her are attempting to forge a compromise that will keep the peace for now, but at the same time be unsatisfactory in the long run--and everything seems to be in a state of flux where it could still possibly go either way--all depending upon Dany's ability to choose between marrying or tyrannizing. And that's what I got out of the political situation that wasn't overtly stated in the chapter this time around. I also seem to recall that looking at the differences in pyramids (and thus the relative wealth of the slaver families) is likely another way to judge the political situation as pyramids that are more modest (like the Shavepate's) that are assaulting pyramids that are a bit more ornate (like the Pahl's) obviously are seeking to rise up in the world by striking down their former adversaries (just like you might compare LF's keep in the Fingers vs the grander castles of Riverrun or Winterfell). There's a lot of information to tease out, not all of it is outright stated, some of it is, and some of what is outright stated is a lie--with it being left up to the reader to determine which is which.
Likely another way to judge the wealth and politics of a petitioner is to judge their tokar, which is something I'm aiming to figure out this re-read. Which reminds me I need to make a Tokar Traker spreadsheet...
Hmm interesting. I don't know if your analysis is similar or not as I haven't read it in awhile, but I know that GRRM has come out and said that this particular series of essays
is exactly what's going on in the Mereenese Knot and is the true way to interpret it
Every once in awhile, a loyal minion or Parris will tell him something particularly important or interesting, or Linda and I may contact him about something, but there have now been academic journals and such about his books, and people writing their thesis and such. He finds it very flattering and has looked at some of those and they're often very good, in-depth literary analysis and so on: "It's useful for me to find out what the hell I'm doing. I'm really smart! I can tell because that's what these guys are telling me!" You can imagine the laughter and humor in that, from George and the audience both. Then he went on to add that sometimes there's an essay or even a series of essays that "really gets it right". He specifically cited the difficulty he had with the Meereenese sections of ADwD, trying to figure out the POV, and he called it the "Meereenese Knot." He admitted being annoyed when some turned it into "the Meerenese Blot", but someone made a series of essays with that title. "I read those when someone pointed them out to me, and I was really pleased with them, because at least one guy got it. He got it completely, he knew exactly what I was trying to do there, and evidently I did it well enough for people who were paying attention." Of course, he added that some other essays depress him when people get everything wrong, and when people get everything wrong, well, whose fault is it? It could be his fault because he didn't write it well enough, but who knows?
So if you want to know specifically what to look for then you can just read those essays. If you're not already on the right path anyways as again it's been awhile since I read them and couldn't really say whether you are or not given that we know that those essays are definitely correct (though I think you're on the right track with the Grace supporting Dany and Shavepate trying to cause anarchy as that rings a bell).
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
The best part of the video is where he manages to establish the political situation and just how dangerous a position it is in at the moment (threatening to have the status quo toppled), and just how Arya throws a spanner into the works without ever knowing that she did.
I have no idea how he finds these bits of information. Like this all just passed right over my head in every read through. Admittedly I find Arya kind of boring, but still you'd think that these kind of details would stand out the way that they seem to once they've been pointed out. Braavos is a clusterfuck right now, and Arya happens to keep popping up in the right places
Indeed I don't always agree with his conclusions but his ability to wrinkle what is really going on is nothing sort of incredible.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Lotta interesting stuff. Jaqen's target is Bloodraven, the House of Black and White is supporting Aegon and paved the way for his invasion, etc.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Seems like he's going off the rails a bit with this one. How would anyone even be able to guess that Bloodraven is still alive, let alone hire a bit on him?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Seems like he's going off the rails a bit with this one. How would anyone even be able to guess that Bloodraven is still alive, let alone hire a bit on him?
Well I'm not saying I necessarily agree with him that Bloodraven's the target as for me it really boils down to that Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter could have simply voluntarily joined the Watch instead of being forced to as prisoners if they had to go north of the Wall (and why would they join the Watch, only to then go to Oldtown - shouldn't it be Oldtown, then Wall?), but I don't think it'd be that hard to know that Bloodraven's still alive. Most people don't know he is because they don't have magical abilities. Bran and Jojen, and seemingly Howland and Rickon, both knew he was alive from their dreams. Melisandre's seen a vision of him so she technically knows that he's alive and presumably any follower of R'hllor could have also seen the vision and known as well. Then there's the children of the forest and things like Coldhands who knew about him. And the Others seemingly known about him given the attacks on Bran's party and the trap at Bloodraven's cave (unless of course Bloodraven is working for the Others). So already we've got a bunch of sides all knowing about him. It would rather be surprising in my opinion if the Faceless Man weren't also aware as it seems pretty much every magical side knows. They'd be like the only side who doesn't.
And to be honest, I've also been struggling with the whole question of why is Bloodraven even in our stories? He's in both Dunk and Egg and ASOIAF. And I don't really see the reason why Bloodraven had to be Bran's teacher. Seems like GRRM could have just pulled out anybody to fulfill Bloodraven's role as he's had to invent all these scenarios to make it that Bloodraven's still alive just to include him, when Bloodraven really provides no actual tie between Dunk and Egg and ASOIAF as is except as an easter egg. And therefore isn't necessary himself and could have been replaced with some random wizard as easter eggs should stick to things like Dunk's shield instead of major characters. I don't know if I'd be complete satisfied with PJ more or less theory that Bloodraven is Jaqen's target because Bloodraven would oppose Aegon, but it at least does tie together the two series in a better way than that he's just a simple easter egg like he is now as Bloodraven is then specifically in the story not only as Bran's teacher, but as the Blackfyre antagonist he was back in Dunk and Egg. He's still playing the same role he always was then, when as Illyrio says that nowadays no one really cares whether a dragon's red or black (to which I think he's probably correct - the common person doesn't care anymore). Bloodraven still would.
I wouldn't call it a master piece by any means, but the tie is there and I'd at least accept why Bloodraven has been magically kept alive in one of GRRM's fewer bendings of reality, instead of there just being Jon Smith as the three eyed crow who's been in our series all along.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Bran and Jojen, and seemingly Howland and Rickon, both knew he was alive from their dreams.
Not necessarily. They knew that there was a three eyed crow, not necessarily who exactly it represented. I'm not even sure that Bran and Jojen know exactly who he was even after meeting him.
Melisandre's seen a vision of him so she technically knows that he's alive and presumably any follower of R'hllor could have also seen the vision and known as well.
Melisandre saw wood with a thousand eyes. How many people would be clever enough to interpret that vision correctly?
And to be honest, I've also been struggling with the whole question of why is Bloodraven even in our stories?
This is a great point, and yes this is a potential explanation, but I still don't see it as a probable one. At this point we've just barely been introduced to Bloodraven as he currently is as a character. I think that there is still plenty of time left to make us understand why exactly Martin chose him to fill this role with Bloodraven. I somehow doubt that it's just an Easter egg too.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Looking forward to see where he goes with this. Even better its nice to have a place to discuss it.
Ive tried PM-info him on W and YouTube to join us. Feel free to help me harass him. Or, Atreyu, you claim you can wrangle anyone. What prize would you want if you could recruit PJ over here? I'd have to discuss with my fellow mods, but maybe we could grant you some perks (not superpowers guys settle down) to your profile. We can discuss and negotiate such a transaction
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Looking forward to see where he goes with this. Even better its nice to have a place to discuss it.
Ive tried PM-info him on W and YouTube to join us. Feel free to help me harass him. Or, Atreyu , you claim you can wrangle anyone. What prize would you want if you could recruit PJ over here? I'd have to discuss with my fellow mods, but maybe we could grant you some perks (not superpowers guys settle down) to your profile. We can discuss and negotiate such a transaction
I'd also try his Patreon site. I think he doesn't use Westeros.org anymore.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Ive tried PM-info him on W and YouTube to join us. Feel free to help me harass him. Or, Atreyu , you claim you can wrangle anyone. What prize would you want if you could recruit PJ over here? I'd have to discuss with my fellow mods, but maybe we could grant you some perks (not superpowers guys settle down) to your profile. We can discuss and negotiate such a transaction
I'd also try his Patreon site. I think he doesn't use Westeros.org anymore.
You want to try and recruit him? I'd be happy to negotiate some special stuff for your profile for a reward after clearing w/fellow mods, but I don't think they'd mind. PM me if you want to negotiate something. Yes, it includes your own choice of star color. Would be well deserved.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!