I can buy that Jaquen is kind of a rarity among the current Faceless Men. There's been enough discussions around how he seems to be such a rogue, but if he's the only one who can currently change his face truly than that might explain why he has so much freedom and seemingly does whatever he wants if he's probably basically the highest ranked Faceless Man.
Arya's face not actually changing into the ugly girl's is an interesting idea IMO. I don't know if the kindly man necessarily lied to her, but the descriptions and lack of reactions don't really fit if Arya was supposedly walking around like she'd taken a mace blow to the face or something.
Arya being trained though to kill Gregor seems off though. I can see why the HOBAW might want to kill Gregor and that Arya certainly has the motive, I just don't see how they could possibly know that Gregor's an undead monster who wants to die, let alone why that should concern them more than supposedly backing Aegon. Robert Strong after all is only 1 warrior and nothing more. He's hardly some actual hindrance that needs to be overwhelmingly taken care for the supposed Aegon plan to succeed, and certainly not over Cersei if the HOBAW were truly going to assinate someone in King's Landing to help Aegon.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Well its sad to see this series end, still revisiting Dorne is what I have been looking forward to most.
Overall its a good series. The case for Rorge and Biter being Faceless Men is something I can get behind. The whole Illyrio/Blackfyre connection is a huge leap IMO along with killing Bloodraven. The Braavosi politics connections were good but his conclusions are off.
Also I am fairly certain that Marwyn knows that Pate is a Faceless Men. They even seem to be brewing something in a kettle that is similar to what the Kindly Man gives to Arya. Seems Marwyn is doing another one of his knowledge exchanges with Jaquen.
Still no clue how Jaquen could communicate to the Kindly Man Arya's name and location.
The use of Arya to disrupt the Lannister/IB seems spot on but there are plenty of groups who have no love for the Lannisters and want them to fail. Dorne most certainly comes to mind which would explain the connection to Marwyn.
The whole levels of face changing has some merit but still seems a stretch. I still think the Waif will be sent to Westeros with Arya's face. That would explain why she learned the common tongue and spent so much time playing the lying game with Arya. To learn her personal history to better impersonate her.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I disagree with PJ that HoBaW are tying to imitate warging, it seems to me that they are imitating wighting. The subjects need to be dead for them to use and I am not sure but they never actually ask for the dead people's permission about the usage of their faces. It might be implied but is never explicitly mentioned. They are animating people's dead bodies by projecting their own will into them (or similar), this is so Others. No?
Thanks to markg171, I've been on Reddit reading about the Bolt-on theory, and a mention about the Faceless Mens' method is described as using cured skin and infusing with blood:
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1xe89h/spoilers_all_bolt_on_apply_directly_to_the/ It's in the opening paragraph of the OP, I think. Is this canon? I don't remember a vivid description on how the faces were acquired, but that doesn't mean it's not there, of course.
BTW, I googled PJ+Faceless Men & Faceless Men+Last Hearth, and we come up on the first page!
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I disagree with PJ that HoBaW are tying to imitate warging, it seems to me that they are imitating wighting. The subjects need to be dead for them to use and I am not sure but they never actually ask for the dead people's permission about the usage of their faces. It might be implied but is never explicitly mentioned. They are animating people's dead bodies by projecting their own will into them (or similar), this is so Others. No?
1. Not sure how I missed this entire thread.
2. I agree that there are more interested in skinchanging the dead than the living--they just take the skins (or at least the acolytes do).
But you're right--if the Others are controlled by . . . others. . . then this is a forced kind. No permission or engagement with the living subject.
As with the wights--as you say.
3. But it seems to raise an old Heresy question of how this all works.
Right now, I'm in the school of there are multiple ways this magic works. Even skin changers can abuse their natural talent (as does Varamyr, and, for that matter, Bran). So, the idea that others would abuse the power even further works.
We've seen Qyburn try an almost scientific version of wighting with Robert Strong. So, the idea that the HOBAW would do the same makes sense.
4. All that said--why? Are they tied into the "Never Dragons!" movement of the purple people of Braavos (like Tycho Nestoris)? sweetsunray has made a good case for the HOBAW sharing info with with governance of Braavos.
But if HOBAW are trying to engage in magics similar to what produces the Ice Dragons (what I think the Others are) and wights--are they really on the "No Dragon" side? Or are they just opting for nuclear weapons, not recognizing that this is a terrible idea?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
It's in the opening paragraph of the OP, I think. Is this canon? I don't remember a vivid description on how the faces were acquired, but that doesn't mean it's not there, of course.
“Sit,” the priest commanded. She sat. “Now close your eyes, child.” She closed her eyes. “This will hurt,” he warned her, “but pain is the price of power. Do not move.”
Still as stone, she thought. She sat unmoving. The cut was quick, the blade sharp. By rights the metal should have been cold against her flesh, but it felt warm instead. She could feel the blood washing down her face, a rippling red curtain falling across her brow and cheeks and chin, and she understood why the priest had made her close her eyes. When it reached her lips the taste was salt and copper. She licked at it and shivered.
“Bring me the face,” said the kindly man. The waif made no answer, but she could hear her slippers whispering over the stone floor. To the girl he said, “Drink this,” and pressed a cup into her hand. She drank it down at once. It was very tart, like biting into a lemon. A thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes. No, that was not me, that was only Arya.
“Mummers change their faces with artifice,” the kindly man was saying, “and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with. Keep your eyes closed.” She felt his fingers brushing back her hair. “Stay still. This will feel queer. You may be dizzy, but you must not move.”
Then came a tug and a soft rustling as the new face was pulled down over the old. The leather scraped across her brow, dry and stiff, but as her blood soaked into it, it softened and turned supple. Her cheeks grew warm, flushed. She could feel her heart fluttering beneath her breast, and for one long moment she could not catch her breath. Hands closed around her throat, hard as stone, choking her. Her own hands shot up to claw at the arms of her attacker, but there was no one there. A terrible sense of fear filled her, and she heard a noise, a hideous crunching noise, accompanied by blinding pain. A face floated in front of her, fat, bearded, brutal, his mouth twisted with rage. She heard the priest say, “Breathe, child. Breathe out the fear. Shake off the shadows. He is dead. She is dead. Her pain is gone. Breathe.”
They cut Arya's face, likely on the scalp, then let the blood soak down her face. Then they place the old skin of someone else's face over Arya's head, and her blood soaks through the skin and does whatever it does.
So yes, they do use cured faces and animate them with blood. Or rather, at least they claim to. As Arya herself notes
The girl took a deep shuddering breath, and realized it was true. No one was choking her, no one was hitting her. Even so, her hand was shaking as she raised it to her face. Flakes of dried blood crumbled at the touch of her fingertips, black in the lantern light. She felt her cheeks, touched her eyes, traced the line of her jaw. “My face is still the same.”
“Is it? Are you certain?”
Was she certain? She had not felt any change, but maybe it was not something you could feel. She swept a hand down across her face from top to bottom, as she had once seen Jaqen H’ghar do, back at Harrenhal. When he did it, his whole face had rippled and changed. When she did it, nothing happened. “It feels the same.”
“To you,” said the priest. “It does not look the same.”
“To other eyes, your nose and jaw are broken,” said the waif. “One side of your face is caved in where your cheekbone shattered, and half your teeth are missing.”
She probed around inside her mouth with her tongue, but found no holes or broken teeth. Sorcery, she thought. I have a new face. An ugly, broken face.
As far as she can tell nothing's actually changed and just has to rely on the Kindly Man and the waif telling her it has, and that this isn't at all what Jaqen did when he changed his face as he simply just changed it into a new one, despite the fact that the Kindly Man had told her that when she donned a new face it would be real
“Mummers change their faces with artifice,” the kindly man was saying, “and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with. Keep your eyes closed.” She felt his fingers brushing back her hair. “Stay still. This will feel queer. You may be dizzy, but you must not move.”
So who knows what actually happened.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
2. I agree that there are more interested in skinchanging the dead than the living--they just take the skins (or at least the acolytes do).
But you're right--if the Others are controlled by . . . others. . . then this is a forced kind. No permission or engagement with the living subject.
As with the wights--as you say.
3. But it seems to raise an old Heresy question of how this all works.
Right now, I'm in the school of there are multiple ways this magic works. Even skin changers can abuse their natural talent (as does Varamyr, and, for that matter, Bran). So, the idea that others would abuse the power even further works.
We've seen Qyburn try an almost scientific version of wighting with Robert Strong. So, the idea that the HOBAW would do the same makes sense.
4. All that said--why? Are they tied into the "Never Dragons!" movement of the purple people of Braavos (like Tycho Nestoris)? sweetsunray has made a good case for the HOBAW sharing info with with governance of Braavos.
But if HOBAW are trying to engage in magics similar to what produces the Ice Dragons (what I think the Others are) and wights--are they really on the "No Dragon" side? Or are they just opting for nuclear weapons, not recognizing that this is a terrible idea?
Well, they are literally "skin changing". We have several "skinchanging" claims.
A warg does it with a bond, spiritually, psychologically. Only in their 2nd life do they merge animal and their "psyche" into one. Varamyr explains it. Arya does it (to several different degrees). Bran does it. Jon does it.
The she-bears of House Mormont claim they skinchange into bears, go into the woods, copulate with a bear and their children aren't bastards, but Mormonts. This seems more like a social lie construct in order to preserve House Mormont through the female line, without a husband's House usurping House Mormont with their name. Maggy and Alysanne have no husbands. They have children who are treated as legitimate heirs, not bastards. They can't say the father is just some lover, because that would make their children a bastard. So, they lie about skinchanging into bears and bears fathering their children. And the reason Alysane tells about skinchanging into bears to Asha imo is because there's guys like Masey hoping to be rewarded Asha as wife in order to get House Greyjoy for their own. And she had intercourse the night Stannis captured Deepwood Motte, and she had no opportunity to drink Tansy tea. Wouldn't be surprised if Asha starts to claim she skinchanged into a kraken and her child was fathered by one. So, we have skinchanging as a social acceptable lie to protect the bloodline and prevent usurpation of a House through marriage. Sansa, needs to take notes. Might be the Cranes do the exact same thing. Why are we certain it's a lie... Well, if they were to skinchange bears like Varamy does, then they do not physically turn into a bear, nor physically copulate with a bear. They still have their own human body that stays human.
There are theories that think wights come about by a process where Others skinchange the dead, in a similar way that Varamyr can skinchange multiple animals. Peculiar is that the wights only remember they are dead when the bone marrow is broken, eaten or burned. @evita made some good points about that.
And then we have the FM who literally put someone else's skin over their face. The cutting and blood seeping seems to be the glue... It's a blood ritual where the FM's blood letting sacrifice bonds the face to their own. Arya experiences the last memories of the Ugly Girl as if it's real, so there is also a mental bonding. Since the KM guides Arya through this process and experience, it's not simply an experience following from her warging ability, but something that happens to any FM when he puts on a face. Jaquen's speech mannerism when wearing Jaquen's face (the one that everybody thinks typifies him) is further evidence that it's not just the face, but everything else of that dead person too. Jaquen's speech mannerism is that of Lorath. The original religion of Baath made them self-negate themselves, so that they do not refer to themselves or others as "I, me, mine" or "You", etc. But once he changes his face that speech mannerism is gone. They physically wear the face of another human being, but a remainder of that human being's spirit and memories come with it, just like Bran experiences the remaining spirit of a dead child of the forest in a raven that the child skinchanged for his 2nd life. (Makes you wonder how long those ravens live btw). But with the FM practice it's kindof the opposite direction: instead of a part of the FM being in the other human, it's a part of the other human.
Varamyr's prologue explains how skinchanging humans is taboo and regarded as an abomination. Of course a skinchanger like Varamyr and Bran can only try to skinchange a living human being and taking over their mind. It's not an easy thing: Thistle scratches her own eyes out and fights him mentally and he can't stay inside her mind. Bran is able to do it with Hodor, but Hodor doesn't like it. But the way the FM do it, they kindof give the dead person a type of 2nd life, nor do they perform the abomination of enslaving another person's mind. The person's dead. More, most of the faces come from 'volunteers'... people who wished to die all of their own accord and went to the HoBaW for it. (Pate in his prologue being the exception to that).
And then we have the FM who literally put someone else's skin over their face. The cutting and blood seeping seems to be the glue... It's a blood ritual where the FM's blood letting sacrifice bonds the face to their own. Arya experiences the last memories of the Ugly Girl as if it's real, so there is also a mental bonding. Since the KM guides Arya through this process and experience, it's not simply an experience following from her warging ability, but something that happens to any FM when he puts on a face.
Which may be a clue as to how Faceless Men are chosen--they have some skin changing ability innate in them.
But with the FM practice it's kindof the opposite direction: instead of a part of the FM being in the other human, it's a part of the other human.
Perhaps because they are using skin instead of bone? Or life force? (A question I'm assuming can't be answered). But the wights are full bodied raising, though the life is gone. Some memory of life force in the bone, but still--their personality is gone.
So, sound like a subversion of personality one way or another (opposites) the the FM and the wights. Vs. a sharing--as we see with warging.
Though Bran's forced skin changing of Hodor seems like he's taking over and NOT sharing. Different from how Summer thinks of Bran--"the boy who shared his skin"--and hears Bran telling him of the Sentinel tree in the godswood to escape when they hear Theon and CO. invading the castle. Sharing, not submission.
But the way the FM do it, they kindof give the dead person a type of 2nd life, nor do they perform the abomination of enslaving another person's mind. The person's dead
True, but there is a cost to the person wearing the face. A cost different from what Bran experiences from Summer.
And it's a process that ONLY comes from giving the gift--giving people death. So, still seems rather predatory of the FM.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
True, but there is a cost to the person wearing the face. A cost different from what Bran experiences from Summer.
And it's a process that ONLY comes from giving the gift--giving people death. So, still seems rather predatory of the FM.
Well, Jojen warns Bran about losing himself in the wolf. Look at Rickon and Shaggydog. Or remember Robb's comment about why he keeps Grey Wind in the yard and not with him anymore. Skinchanging and warging comes with a cost too... you lose a part of your humanity and become partly animal in your soul: a blend. It's not just wargs that visit an animal's body for a period. It's the blending of souls.
Skinchanging is always predatory in nature really. Even wild animals fight and resent the bond. Only dogs and pet wolves are the most amenable to it. The other animals like it not. It's just because they're not as powerful in mind that they can't stop it, in the way that Thistle can fight Varamyr's invasion off.
Yup, they do it to those who die - voluntarily or prayed and sacrificed for. And yes, the FM are predatory; they're assassins. At least the mind and soul of the dead isn't raped, nor is their body abused. But it does help to understand why the process of identity is important, and why the FM find it exceedingly important that you can't kill someone without making a sacrifice for it. The FM don't want Varamyrs who kill people for their face and personal gain. In that sense Jaquen may have gone rogue (I doubt it, but it's possible). But the whole 'no one' litany is imho just about 'let go of the ego', not just so that avoid picking targets for their own personal reasons, but to allow for room for the faint of a personality that comes with the face, and possibly even to avoid that the faint of the face uses the ego of the FM for their revenge. I think it's a way to protect the FM so that "abominations" do not occur.
What the Others do to wights is "abomination". What the FM do is sacrifice a part of themselves and by applying the face onto themselves, they don't skinchange the dead, but the dead skinchange them so to speak. That's imho not an abomination.
3. But it seems to raise an old Heresy question of how this all works.
Right now, I'm in the school of there are multiple ways this magic works. Even skin changers can abuse their natural talent (as does Varamyr, and, for that matter, Bran). So, the idea that others would abuse the power even further works.
We've seen Qyburn try an almost scientific version of wighting with Robert Strong. So, the idea that the HOBAW would do the same makes sense.
Qyburn is an interesting notion since it is so weird to me what he actually is doing. Assuming he is not using some form of magic or sorcery, how is bringing people back from dead or keep them in some high-functioning coma?
Though Bran's forced skin changing of Hodor seems like he's taking over and NOT sharing. Different from how Summer thinks of Bran--"the boy who shared his skin"--and hears Bran telling him of the Sentinel tree in the godswood to escape when they hear Theon and CO. invading the castle. Sharing, not submission.
This is interesting to me, since it is not clear whether it is about co-existence of different egos (Bran + Summer) or enslavement as you put it.
Skinchanging is always predatory in nature really. Even wild animals fight and resent the bond. Only dogs and pet wolves are the most amenable to it. The other animals like it not. It's just because they're not as powerful in mind that they can't stop it, in the way that Thistle can fight Varamyr's invasion off.
We do not see this in Arya though. It could be because Arya is special (she really is in so many other ways), or it could be because as you have put it, she has "let her ego go". IF it is the latter (which I think it is) it actually provides a very interesting insight into Craster's sons sacrifice. Infants have no ego, but they have a will, much like FM.
But the whole 'no one' litany is imho just about 'let go of the ego', not just so that avoid picking targets for their own personal reasons, but to allow for room for the faint of a personality that comes with the face, and possibly even to avoid that the faint of the face uses the ego of the FM for their revenge. I think it's a way to protect the FM so that "abominations" do not occur.
I really like this, very interesting analysis Could it be the same with Others?
What the Others do to wights is "abomination". What the FM do is sacrifice a part of themselves and by applying the face onto themselves, they don't skinchange the dead, but the dead skinchange them so to speak. That's imho not an abomination.
They are still skinchanging into the dead since they keep their "will" intact which is the whole point. But I agree with the essence of your point.
Well, Jojen warns Bran about losing himself in the wolf. Look at Rickon and Shaggydog. Or remember Robb's comment about why he keeps Grey Wind in the yard and not with him anymore. Skinchanging and warging comes with a cost too... you lose a part of your humanity and become partly animal in your soul: a blend. It's not just wargs that visit an animal's body for a period. It's the blending of souls.
Agreed--though it seems like there can be a balance in a way that the Faceless Men. .. just don't do. Putting on a face immediately and long term causes side effects and nightmares.
Skinchanging is always predatory in nature really. Even wild animals fight and resent the bond. Only dogs and pet wolves are the most amenable to it. The other animals like it not. It's just because they're not as powerful in mind that they can't stop it, in the way that Thistle can fight Varamyr's invasion off.
Yes--the bond has to be . . . built. Though the Singers do seem able to co-exist in the ravens pretty happily.
Varamyr's skin changing is predatory, as you say. As is Bran with Hodor. But what the FM do. . . can't see how that is ever really coexistence and sharing.
But the whole 'no one' litany is imho just about 'let go of the ego', not just so that avoid picking targets for their own personal reasons, but to allow for room for the faint of a personality that comes with the face, and possibly even to avoid that the faint of the face uses the ego of the FM for their revenge. I think it's a way to protect the FM so that "abominations" do not occur.
Possible--but I wonder if what Jaquen does is the abomination--changing faces without wearing masks. So much no one that he can be anyone.
What the Others do to wights is "abomination". What the FM do is sacrifice a part of themselves and by applying the face onto themselves, they don't skinchange the dead, but the dead skinchange them so to speak. That's imho not an abomination.
Fair enough--though I do not trust the Faceless Men, and so am likely to be prejudiced.
All this playing with and manipulating the dead for one's own purposes just seems. . . wrong. A breakdown of the life cycle.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Qyburn is an interesting notion since it is so weird to me what he actually is doing. Assuming he is not using some form of magic or sorcery, how is bringing people back from dead or keep them in some high-functioning coma?
I keep assuming he is using some kind of magic--it's Westeros, after all. Some kind of magic involving life and blood.
Makes me wonder if he could do it before the magic started rising again (direwovles, comets, dragons).
But he could be just manipulating nature, as does Frankenstein. But in Westeros, nature is magical. So. . . I think it's magic.
This is interesting to me, since it is not clear whether it is about co-existence of different egos (Bran + Summer) or enslavement as you put it.
I just keep coming back to the moment when Summer hears the voice telling him he can get out via the sentinel in the godswood. Seems like he and Bran's consciousness are partners. Summer is angry that he doesn't have limbs to climb the tree like the boy does. But he listens to the boy and tries to use the advice to get free.
Seems less like subservience--feeling compelled to go try the tree--and more like a partnership--hears the voice and trusts it.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.