I would come just shy of equating glass candles and weirwoods, however. Weirwoods are Westeros. Glass Candles are not.
But I do shout a big YUP! at the analogous Wardens of West/East. Jon Arryn and Tywin Lannister are the two most successful players in the Game of Thrones since Aegon the Conqueror.
Agreed on the candles--though I do wonder if the weirwoods were enhanced by blood. Rather like the glass candles seem to be an "off" kind of magic.
As for Jon Arryn and Lannister--again: wardens who put politics over "wardening." Like (I think) the Stark in Winterfell and the Sword of the Morning left their "posts."
And it all happened around the same time.
Now, in Dorne, we've got Doran plotting, too. Vs. minding his own house.
I was looking at this as more of an isolated echo. The young blokes enjoying their drinks of ice and fire. A Rosey ready to be plucked. A lustful man who wants nothing in the world so much as her... thinking violent thoughts when the higher-born lad considers giving her a token of his affections...
I can see that--like my insistence that Baelish's tower is a pointer towards what happened at the tower of joy. Your example is just more. . . compacted?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
A while back BeautifulBacon noticed that there were several parallels between the duel between Brandon and Littlefinger and the fight between Robert and Rhaegar at the trident. I only wish I could remember what she said that the parallels were.
Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name
vs
That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. "Yield!" he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr's rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured "Cat" as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I dunno if Quentyn's survived this chapter, but the person who sounds like the corpse that we're told is Quentyn's sounds a lot more like that of the Brazen Beast's than it does Quentyn's.
Agreed--though I'm not quite sure what to do with this--or why they'd pretend the body wasn't his. . .
This is amazing. Wow! You are right, we have barriers on both ends. However, would the Neck be a better counterpart to the Red Mountains? A natural obstacle blocking access to the North? I could be wrong. But I like the idea that then, it seems as though the North and South are protecting themselves from mainland Westeros. Not Westeros protecting itself from them. Of course, it's still possible that the Wall was originally built to defend against the south, not the north. In which case, the parallel is restored.
1.
2. The Neck would be the more natural barrier--like the Red Mountains.
And I agree that what exactly the Wall is protecting--North? South?--is unclear. It almost seems like a barrier between known and unknown, vs. the natural barriers to protect humanity.
Though the Red Mountain clans (according to the World Book) are supposed to be like the Vale clans. Who seem a bit like the Hill Clans Stannis rallies. So, the mountains/hills could be the parallel itself. With the Wall at the edge of them in the North and the Starfall with Dawn at the edge of the mountains in the south.
I guess anything is possible, but at this point I would be highly surprised if Dany is actually Aerys and Rhaella's daughter. It just seems too convenient for them to finally have a healthy living child at the time they seem to need it the most. I think that with all of the scrutiny that Rhaella was under following her being unsuccessful in bearing a healthy child that it would have been awfully difficult for her to have found herself in a position to be able to have an affair. Aerys was too paranoid and had her watched too closely. As for Arthur Dayne, if he was truly with Rhaegar for the entire time, he wouldn't have been around to father a child at the right time. There would need to be a LOT more to that story. Not only that, but think of how frequently Rhaegar is mentioned in Dany's chapters. She learns about him, has visions of him, is compared to him, sees herself in his armor. In my mind, this makes it much more likely that Rhaegar is Dany's father rather than her brother. I think that the most likely candidates for her mother are either Lyanna or Ashara, but I'm still not 100% convinced.
Would also add that Rhaegar is repeatedly called the Last Dragon in Game. Viserys (according to Dany) is no dragon. And when Dany claims her dragons in the pyre, she calls herself the dragon's daughter. In the same book where we keep being told who "The Dragon" is--Rhaegar.
And Ashara as her mother makes a lot of sense (I think).
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I have always enjoyed the theory that it is Gerion Lannister.
Sorry, I was thinking of a parallel. If it were Gerion Lannister then it would help to explain Tyrion's survival. If I ever get to that part on my reread I'll have to keep it in mind.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
The big thing that makes me think this is the mention of animals being carved into the ceiling beams in the room that Willem Darry is in, in the vision Dany has in the HotU. The only other mention of similar carvings, if I remember correctly, is near the Greenblood. The fields of grass, red door and lemon tree also seem to fit, as you have mentioned. I never thought of the canals before. Good idea!
That's right, I forgot about the carvings! I think they were mentioned as being on/in the pole boats, but if that same society (the Rhoynar/ orphans) built some houses I expect they would have carvings as well.
It's curious then that both Dany and Aegon were kept near/on rivers, rivers that the Rhoynar called home (previously or currently) and that had pole boats on them. I would say that makes it increasingly likely that they are part of the same plan somehow, though I can't for the life of me say what it is.
Someday soon, when I have more time, I want to take a closer look at events around the time Dany was 2-5 years old. Because something must have happened, no matter what city she was staying in. For the first few years of her life, she was lovingly cared for in a nice, big house... then all of a sudden she was out on the streets. Why? We also learn from an Arianne preview chapter that she was supposed to meet with Viserys secretly as a child, and she was going to be fostered overseas for it. But that never panned out and after that it seems nobody was communicating with Viserys or his "handlers" (Darry?) at all anymore. So what happened?
I guess anything is possible, but at this point I would be highly surprised if Dany is actually Aerys and Rhaella's daughter. It just seems too convenient for them to finally have a healthy living child at the time they seem to need it the most. I think that with all of the scrutiny that Rhaella was under following her being unsuccessful in bearing a healthy child that it would have been awfully difficult for her to have found herself in a position to be able to have an affair. Aerys was too paranoid and had her watched too closely. As for Arthur Dayne, if he was truly with Rhaegar for the entire time, he wouldn't have been around to father a child at the right time. There would need to be a LOT more to that story. Not only that, but think of how frequently Rhaegar is mentioned in Dany's chapters. She learns about him, has visions of him, is compared to him, sees herself in his armor. In my mind, this makes it much more likely that Rhaegar is Dany's father rather than her brother. I think that the most likely candidates for her mother are either Lyanna or Ashara, but I'm still not 100% convinced.
Good point. AD never returned to KL. So that's out. (Unless Rhaella didn't go to Dragonstone right away after she left KL. I know that's what we're told, but that whole story seems a little iffy. Jaime remembers the morning she left, yet Viserys remembers a midnight flight to DS. Hmmm. Could she have sailed somewhere else first (i.e. Starfall), and come back to DS later on? Ashara had to get from KL to Starfall somehow...)
I too prefer Ashara as her mother, but so far we just have very little evidence that she and Rhaegar are connected. I'm definitely not ruling it out though!
Lyanna is an interesting possibility, but then we're back to the dilemma of Jon either being Ashara's with a Stark (which simply doesn't work with the timelines) or one of the Starks knocking up some random woman... which seems unlikely. So I do like Jon as Lyanna's son, just probably not by Rhaegar.
Interesting thoughts. At the moment, I'm thinking that Aurane Waters is exactly who we think he is. The Velaryons also have Valyrian features. Plus they're long term allies of the Targaryans. There would be no need to change his identity for him to switch alliances. Not to mention the fact that he already did once as he started out on Stannis's side. Now Daario, I would consider him. There are so many theories surrounding him that you really do start to wonder what exactly might be going on there. So many parts of his backstory don't make logical sense as well.
Agreed. And he has green eyes, where any full targ should have blue/purple/lilac eyes. But in general, if we think one of the royal offspring was secretly switched out and claimed as dead, it could have happened to others. Including, possibly, Rhaegar's children. If he was as smart and "able" as they say, he might have had them substituted out at the water gardens very early on, to protect them from his mad father. It's possible neither of Rhaegar's kids ever set foot in KL. Which leads to my potential crackpot...
Hmm. My original thought was that real was too dark to be anything other than a Summer Islander. Then I googled teak. Seems there are many different shades of teak out there...
Exactly. It's a very vague description. We know she is the riddle, not the riddler. Yes, she is Sarella pretending to be Alleras. But how important is that really? Yes, it shows the connection between the Martells and Marwyn, and possibly the FM. Which is Awesome. But I just keep having this nagging thought that there should be more to her... So, after looking at timelines, ages and birth years, the question arose in my mind: 1) Does Sarella look Dornish? And if she does, then 2) Does she also smell Dornish?
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
And, of course, we have "The Dragon" or "The Last Dragon."
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
It's curious then that both Dany and Aegon were kept near/on rivers, rivers that the Rhoynar called home (previously or currently) and that had pole boats on them. I would say that makes it increasingly likely that they are part of the same plan somehow, though I can't for the life of me say what it is.
It't not an exact parallel, but it calls to mind the fact that Jon is kept north of the Neck--safe from other harm.
But this does raise the question of how much the Orphans know.
Someday soon, when I have more time, I want to take a closer look at events around the time Dany was 2-5 years old. Because something must have happened, no matter what city she was staying in. For the first few years of her life, she was lovingly cared for in a nice, big house... then all of a sudden she was out on the streets. Why?
If Dany and Viserys were the valuable ones, why on earth would they be thrown out when Darry died? Darry's not the one with power. And the Targ kids are bargaining chips.
Plus, the kids get taken in by other wealthy people in Essos--so. . . .were they thrown out or taken out? If "Darry" was poisoned (sweet smell of corruption) to take him out, who wanted control of Dany?
I too prefer Ashara as her mother, but so far we just have very little evidence that she and Rhaegar are connected. I'm definitely not ruling it out though!
Yes--the biggest tie between Rhaegar and Ashara is Elia.
But that potential trio reminds me of Stannis--with wife who believes in his cause completely but can't give him the needed heir. And Melisandre, originally closer to Selyse than to Stannis. Magical, powerful, beautiful. All of them united around fulfilling a prophecy.
Just makes me wonder if Stannis' cousin Rhaegar was part a similar trio.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Sorry if this is the wrong thread- did we post PJ's videos here? I'd like to know how we know Marwyn trained MMD? Or is that just a spinoff theory? I'll moderate my post if this is the wrong thread
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
It really would be awesome. Funny thing is, I know that a lot of people tie him to Mance, and I agree that there are some interesting connections, but I don't believe it at all. If anyone, I think that Mance would be Arthur Dayne. It's crazy, but it's my favorite crackpot. My second favorite crackpot is Rhaegar is Jaqen. Crazy, huh?
I would love to hear your reasoning on both of these. I like the idea of Ned having let Arthur live and take the Black; I'm just not sure how nobody would have noticed. At the Wall, I mean. I don't know if 18 year old Ned would have had enough influence to convince them to invent this whole backstory for their newest recruit... although it would be kind of awesome if the LC, knowing who this was, would have agreed just to get someone of that quality in the NW. Maybe Ned sweetened the deal by offering Benjen too? The other option, of course, is that AD/M is a FM, or at least has enough skill to change his face once. If the Martells are in league with the FM, and Rhaegar was in league with the Martells, and AD was Rhaegar's best friend... (not to mention Oberyn himself may have had some serious skills, after spending time in Oldtown, Volantis and who knows where else in the East!). The other thing I like about M=AD is that it would explain the Dayne's apparent gratitude toward Ned. Allowing the SOTM to live and possibly raising his son is a rather big favor.
As for Rhaegar=Jaqen... I eagerly await your explanation.
Well, we already know that there was recent correspondence between Oberyn Martell and Willas Tyrell. The Martell's obviously have some sort of time to Braavos, considering that the Sealord of Braavos signed the marriage pact for Viserys and Arianne. And Wraith is speculating that Marwyn ties both the Martells and Tyrells together. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to suggest that they are all working together. Great catch on the glass candle. I thought about the FM wanting to use it, but not Marwyn seeing what had happened through it.
Holy shit!!! Wow, I think we are officially on to something here! ( Much credit to Wraith who started this brilliant thread ) Oberyn is the riddle, not the sphinx! He has connections in the Citadel, in Starfall, in Old Volantis, and in Braavos (the Sealord AND the faceless men- quite impressive!). His sister at the time was also married to the heir to the IT. Doran wasn't kidding when he said he was the grass that hides the viper! I also have this theory that Sarella's mom (the septa) is in fact Lemore. An attractive septa of the right age who has given birth and is now supporting the supposed son of Elia Martell. She is witty, with a sense of humor, and gets along well with Tyrion- just as Oberyn did.
Oooh and it just occurred to me that with these new alliances, Joffrey's murder could have been planned well ahead of time. Since the Queen of Thorns and Prince Oberyn were working together. Why? Well, multiple reasons. He was an asshole, and would have been a terrible husband for Margaery. But more than that, the Martells wanted revenge. They could have poisoned Joffrey on some other day, quietly, but no, they wanted all the other Lannisters to watch him die. More importantly, the manner of his death virtually guaranteed that Oberyn would get to fight the Mountain. He was, after all, the Lannisters' best fighter; they would surely choose him as their champion. Oberyn probably expected to be blamed for the murder, in which case he could have demanded the trial by combat. As it happened, it was Tyrion, so Oberyn volunteered to fight for him.
Oberyn then fought Ser Gregor with the poisoned spear, probably expecting to win. That part didn't work out, but the rest of the plan did. Qyburn had successfully weaseled his way into Cersei's trust, and was on hand to "tend to" Ser Gregor. (Qyburn also knew Marwyn, so he was in on it. It's interesting how the silent, non-eating or shitting Ser Gregor is somewhat similar- though more functional- to Drogo after MMD, another Marwyn pupil, is done with him). So now we have an unstoppable white wight knight right inside of the Red Keep, and nobody suspects a thing. Hmmm. Can't wait to see how this will go, but I'll bet anything that Cersei will come to regret her trust in Qyburn sooner rather than later....
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”