Post by whitewolfstark on Jan 7, 2016 2:13:26 GMT
I am the first to admit that while I can see both arguments for Lyanna and Ned being the KOLT, I personally prefer Ned, even if I acknowledge Lyanna is likely.
Over on the place that shall not be named, someone was arguing that Ned is always forthright with dispensing justice and to correct him if wrong if there's an example of Ned not being forthright...
Well, one easily sprang to mind from AGOT. Here's that post... because like most of my postings over on the place that shall not be named, I'm typically ignored, and I want to talk about it. And besides, it gives @prettypig a chance to see what sometimes happens to armor (since she's looking for what happened to Rhaegar's armor).
He offers to pay off the debt still owed on Ser Hugh of the Vale's armor and tells the Silent Sisters to be sure that Ser Hugh's mother will get the armor so that she has the opportunity to sell the armor and support herself now that her son is dead and won't be sending money back to him.
Ser Hugh's mother will never know that Eddard did all that. Silent Sisters are under a vow of silence and sometimes even have their tongues chopped out. So effectively, Ned is sending an anonymous gift of honor to Jon Arryn's former squire's mother.
While at first reading one might go: "he's sending the mother armor that has no sentimental value? How silly! One can imagine the receipt of the armor of the mother saying: "how will the armor replace my son's life?" Barristan brings up a good point that it's worth a fair bit of silver, which I'm sure Ned is well aware of. And if Ser Hugh hadn't paid his debts it could be that the Smith might have hounded the mother until she paid for it. Sending the armor to the mother, gives her recourse to sell it later on, which will help support her. So here Ned does an unspoken act of justice quietly when a situation is put before him. True, he feels responsible--and part of this dolling out is Ned clearing his conscience--but it also suggests that when confronted with a wrong that needs writing he doesn't ALWAYS take the most direct and forthright path. It also shows for a brief instance an specter of superstitious ritual to Ned, that he recalls that it is ill-fortune to look directly on the face of Death (partly foreshadowing that Ned, who now looks on Ser Hugh's face is now cursed with "ill-fortune" but also showing Ned moves to protect those even most ridiculously tied to him).
Also should keep in mind that Ned's doing this even to a squire who granted was his former foster father's squire but was cross and insulted his own man. Ned expects no fanfare to be made of this kindness, and he takes actions behind the scenes rather than openly right this wrong he feels compelled to answer for. And as I mentioned before, the Silent Sisters are the ones who will see to this task--the ones charged with never speaking, so his actions will go unspoken of.
What it does set is a precedent that Ned doesn't always deliver justice by announcing it forthright, but instead can work behind the scenes as well--especially if he feels somewhat responsible.
The question to take from this incident then is if Ned overhears Howland's prayer--does he feel responsible?
ETA: The one argument I can see against this, is the mysterious "they". Who is this "they" that will say Ser Hugh died for the honor and glory of Eddard? Obviously not the Silent Sisters... most likely knights who were at the Tourney (though we're told that few Vale Knights come thanks to Lysa IIRC). Perhaps some of Eddard's own men? That might make sense. And if so--would they know about Eddard paying off the Smith for the mother? Perhaps. Or perhaps Ned by saying "they" simply generalizes the rest of the "world" or the rest of society. This is speculation, but it is one weakness to the idea.
Over on the place that shall not be named, someone was arguing that Ned is always forthright with dispensing justice and to correct him if wrong if there's an example of Ned not being forthright...
Well, one easily sprang to mind from AGOT. Here's that post... because like most of my postings over on the place that shall not be named, I'm typically ignored, and I want to talk about it. And besides, it gives @prettypig a chance to see what sometimes happens to armor (since she's looking for what happened to Rhaegar's armor).
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it doesn't seem to even exist in Ned's mindset, and certainly not be valued highly.
He offers to pay off the debt still owed on Ser Hugh of the Vale's armor and tells the Silent Sisters to be sure that Ser Hugh's mother will get the armor so that she has the opportunity to sell the armor and support herself now that her son is dead and won't be sending money back to him.
Ser Hugh's mother will never know that Eddard did all that. Silent Sisters are under a vow of silence and sometimes even have their tongues chopped out. So effectively, Ned is sending an anonymous gift of honor to Jon Arryn's former squire's mother.
EDDARD VII, AGOT
In the pale dawn light, the young knight looked as though he were sleeping. He had not been handsome, but death had smoothed his rough-hewn features and the silent sisters had dressed him in his best velvet tunic, with a high collar to cover the ruin the lance had made of his throat. Eddard Stark looked at his face, and wondered if it had been for his sake that the boy had died. Slain by a Lannister bannerman before Ned could speak to him; could that be mere happenstance? He supposed he would never know.
"Hugh was Jon Arryn's squire for four years," Selmy went on. "The king knighted him before he rode north, in Jon's memory. The lad wanted it desperately, yet I fear he was not ready."
Ned had slept badly last night and he felt tired beyond his years. "None of us is ever ready," he said.
"For knighthood?"
"For death." Gently Ned covered the boy with his cloak, a bloodstained bit of blue bordered in crescent moons. When his mother asked why her son was dead, he reflected bitterly, they would tell her he had fought to honor the King's Hand, Eddard Stark. "This was needless. War should not be a game." Ned turned to the woman beside the cart, shrouded in grey, face hidden but for her eyes. The silent sisters prepared men for the grave, and it was ill fortune to look on the face of death. "Send his armor home to the Vale. The mother will want to have it."
"It is worth a fair piece of silver," Ser Barristan said. "The boy had it forged special for the tourney. Plain work, but good. I do not know if he had finished paying the smith."
"He paid yesterday, my lord, and he paid dearly," Ned replied. And to the silent sister he said, "Send the mother the armor. I will deal with this smith." She bowed her head.
In the pale dawn light, the young knight looked as though he were sleeping. He had not been handsome, but death had smoothed his rough-hewn features and the silent sisters had dressed him in his best velvet tunic, with a high collar to cover the ruin the lance had made of his throat. Eddard Stark looked at his face, and wondered if it had been for his sake that the boy had died. Slain by a Lannister bannerman before Ned could speak to him; could that be mere happenstance? He supposed he would never know.
"Hugh was Jon Arryn's squire for four years," Selmy went on. "The king knighted him before he rode north, in Jon's memory. The lad wanted it desperately, yet I fear he was not ready."
Ned had slept badly last night and he felt tired beyond his years. "None of us is ever ready," he said.
"For knighthood?"
"For death." Gently Ned covered the boy with his cloak, a bloodstained bit of blue bordered in crescent moons. When his mother asked why her son was dead, he reflected bitterly, they would tell her he had fought to honor the King's Hand, Eddard Stark. "This was needless. War should not be a game." Ned turned to the woman beside the cart, shrouded in grey, face hidden but for her eyes. The silent sisters prepared men for the grave, and it was ill fortune to look on the face of death. "Send his armor home to the Vale. The mother will want to have it."
"It is worth a fair piece of silver," Ser Barristan said. "The boy had it forged special for the tourney. Plain work, but good. I do not know if he had finished paying the smith."
"He paid yesterday, my lord, and he paid dearly," Ned replied. And to the silent sister he said, "Send the mother the armor. I will deal with this smith." She bowed her head.
While at first reading one might go: "he's sending the mother armor that has no sentimental value? How silly! One can imagine the receipt of the armor of the mother saying: "how will the armor replace my son's life?" Barristan brings up a good point that it's worth a fair bit of silver, which I'm sure Ned is well aware of. And if Ser Hugh hadn't paid his debts it could be that the Smith might have hounded the mother until she paid for it. Sending the armor to the mother, gives her recourse to sell it later on, which will help support her. So here Ned does an unspoken act of justice quietly when a situation is put before him. True, he feels responsible--and part of this dolling out is Ned clearing his conscience--but it also suggests that when confronted with a wrong that needs writing he doesn't ALWAYS take the most direct and forthright path. It also shows for a brief instance an specter of superstitious ritual to Ned, that he recalls that it is ill-fortune to look directly on the face of Death (partly foreshadowing that Ned, who now looks on Ser Hugh's face is now cursed with "ill-fortune" but also showing Ned moves to protect those even most ridiculously tied to him).
Also should keep in mind that Ned's doing this even to a squire who granted was his former foster father's squire but was cross and insulted his own man. Ned expects no fanfare to be made of this kindness, and he takes actions behind the scenes rather than openly right this wrong he feels compelled to answer for. And as I mentioned before, the Silent Sisters are the ones who will see to this task--the ones charged with never speaking, so his actions will go unspoken of.
What it does set is a precedent that Ned doesn't always deliver justice by announcing it forthright, but instead can work behind the scenes as well--especially if he feels somewhat responsible.
The question to take from this incident then is if Ned overhears Howland's prayer--does he feel responsible?
ETA: The one argument I can see against this, is the mysterious "they". Who is this "they" that will say Ser Hugh died for the honor and glory of Eddard? Obviously not the Silent Sisters... most likely knights who were at the Tourney (though we're told that few Vale Knights come thanks to Lysa IIRC). Perhaps some of Eddard's own men? That might make sense. And if so--would they know about Eddard paying off the Smith for the mother? Perhaps. Or perhaps Ned by saying "they" simply generalizes the rest of the "world" or the rest of society. This is speculation, but it is one weakness to the idea.
