I can die happy now because that bugged me more than Jon Snow's parentage
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Okay so the The Prince that was Promised thing still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. When was this prophecy supposed to have been made?
It seems to be old and using non-modern language, but it can't have come from pre-Doom Valyria because they didn't have Princes or Princesses right? IIRC, They had a bunch of ruling families that all jockeyed for power and the Targaryen's weren't even one of the powerful houses.
So it would seem it was made post-doom, after Aegon's conquest when he became a king and the Targaryens were the royal family. So why does Aemon talk about a translation error? The Targaryn westeros rule hasn't been that long that the prophecy is made and then, somehow, it's meaning is obscured by time???? Even though the Targaryn's are the one in power and would have ample opportunity and ability to transcribe and analyze it.
I do not get.
Maybe the prophecy refers to one of noble Rhoynish blood (called Princes and Princesses in both the Rhoynish Empire and Dorne), rising up to end the tyranny of the dragon lords.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Okay so the The Prince that was Promised thing still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. When was this prophecy supposed to have been made?
It seems to be old and using non-modern language, but it can't have come from pre-Doom Valyria because they didn't have Princes or Princesses right? IIRC, They had a bunch of ruling families that all jockeyed for power and the Targaryen's weren't even one of the powerful houses.
So it would seem it was made post-doom, after Aegon's conquest when he became a king and the Targaryens were the royal family. So why does Aemon talk about a translation error? The Targaryn westeros rule hasn't been that long that the prophecy is made and then, somehow, it's meaning is obscured by time???? Even though the Targaryn's are the one in power and would have ample opportunity and ability to transcribe and analyze it.
I do not get.
I don't get this post, and I'm completely sober. Where is this from? The WB? AFFC? Are you referring to Aemon thinking it is Dany? Are you saying it wouldn't be a Targ because they weren't one of the big wigs pre doom?
Sorry. Please explain like I'm 5. If your question is about when the prophecy was made, Mel gave me the impression it was ancient, predoom, but I don't have canonical evidence to back that up, and I'll be damned if I look through Clash right now to see. Nothing personal, I'm just lazy as fuck. I started a new reread March 2015 & I'm still on Jaimie V in Storm.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Okay so the The Prince that was Promised thing still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. When was this prophecy supposed to have been made?
It seems to be old and using non-modern language, but it can't have come from pre-Doom Valyria because they didn't have Princes or Princesses right? IIRC, They had a bunch of ruling families that all jockeyed for power and the Targaryen's weren't even one of the powerful houses.
So it would seem it was made post-doom, after Aegon's conquest when he became a king and the Targaryens were the royal family. So why does Aemon talk about a translation error? The Targaryn westeros rule hasn't been that long that the prophecy is made and then, somehow, it's meaning is obscured by time???? Even though the Targaryn's are the one in power and would have ample opportunity and ability to transcribe and analyze it.
I do not get.
You know what? You're right.
It doesn't make sense to have come from Old Valyria. It was a Freehold. No princes. No princesses.
Andals did indeed bring that influence to Westeros. I assume they had the same tradition of monarchy in Essos? Idk.
But yes, it doesn't really make sense that it came from Valyria, nor that it was difficult to translate from Valyrian into the Common (Andal) Tongue, considering the rank itself is Andal in origin.
I've proposed before that the mistranslated original term, if Valyrian, was more likely simply "dragon" or "dragon rider" (dragonlord, dragon-mount, dragon-hatcher, etc).
Not having a similar word in Andahli may have left Targaryen settlers searching for a similar term in their new language. "Prince" or "Princess" might fit, considering it denotes higher station, and the fact that not all Valyrians were dragon riders/hatchers.
That's the best I can come up with in-universe. IRL, it may simply be an oversight.
As an aside, it also seems that the Citadel is woefully ignorant of dragon biology, even though maesters should have had well over a century to see them, study them, and ask questions about them in their own country.
Maybe the prophecy refers to one of noble Rhoynish blood (called Princes and Princesses in both the Rhoynish Empire and Dorne), rising up to end the tyranny of the dragon lords.
That makes sense too, particularly considering who Rhaegar is speaking to in that moment.
A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV
Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"
"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.
Before he looks up, he seems to be speaking to Elia... who is of course of Rhoynar descent. (Also note that the plural form of "people from the Rhoyne" seems to use a Valyrian suffix, like "valar" ... which is pretty interesting. The language of the Rhoynar might have been a dialect of High Valyrian.)
Sorry. Please explain like I'm 5. If your question is about when the prophecy was made, Mel gave me the impression it was ancient, predoom, but I don't have canonical evidence to back that up, and I'll be damned if I look through Clash right now to see. Nothing personal, I'm just lazy as fuck.
I wish I could explain it better, but it doesn't make any sense to me either
Maybe the prophecy refers to one of noble Rhoynish blood (called Princes and Princesses in both the Rhoynish Empire and Dorne), rising up to end the tyranny of the dragon lords.
a ROHYNISH prophecy?!? well, that would make a lot more sense. Except why the targayens seem to think it's about them Rohynish...huh...it kind of totally fits
Not having a similar word in Andahli may have left Targaryen settlers searching for a similar term in their new language. "Prince" or "Princess" might fit, considering it denotes higher station, and the fact that not all Valyrians were dragon riders/hatchers.
But...why wouldn't they just use the word "dragon" or "dragon-rider" then???
But...why wouldn't they just use the word "dragon" or "dragon-rider" then???
LOL! I feel you. Eventually, it makes sense that they would have... as the contemporary Common Tongue developed such a term.
Even the terms that do appear in the books, like "dragonlord" and "dragon rider" are inadequate. "Dragonlord" doesn't fit because the Valyrians of yore had no "lords"... and "dragon rider" wouldn't imply a position of leadership within the translation of the prophecy, as there were non-leaders in High Valyrian society that did still ride dragons (like the Targs).
It's hard not to go too-meta in describing this, but we don't even know if the Common Tongue is "English." George may simply be giving us an English translation of it. I vaguely recall a SSM in which he confirmed this, but my memory is very hazy. If this were the case though, that further complicates the problem.
Aemon seems to associate the mistranslation of the gender-specific term of "the prince" with dragon-genders for some reason, so it definitely seems the original term had something to do with dragons-specifically.
Ironically, considering Aegon was (or, is) tptwp, it may wind up being not very important. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
But...why wouldn't they just use the word "dragon" or "dragon-rider" then???
LOL! I feel you. Eventually, it makes sense that they would have... as the contemporary Common Tongue developed such a term.
Even the terms that do appear in the books, like "dragonlord" and "dragon rider" are inadequate. "Dragonlord" doesn't fit because the Valyrians of yore had no "lords"... and "dragon rider" wouldn't imply a position of leadership within the translation of the prophecy, as there were non-leaders in High Valyrian society that did still ride dragons (like the Targs).
It's hard not to go too-meta in describing this, but we don't even know if the Common Tongue is "English." George may simply be giving us an English translation of it. I vaguely recall a SSM in which he confirmed this, but my memory is very hazy. If this were the case though, that further complicates the problem.
Aemon seems to associate the mistranslation of the gender-specific term of "the prince" with dragon-genders for some reason, so it definitely seems the original term had something to do with dragons-specifically.
Ironically, considering Aegon was (or, is) tptwp, it may wind up being not very important. LOL
The confusion re: gender, I think, comes from a generally dismissive attitude towards the gender-neutral laws of inheritance practiced by the Rhoynar. I imagine the Rhoynar word for "Prince" is somewhat gender-neutral, much like the late musician of the same name.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
But...why wouldn't they just use the word "dragon" or "dragon-rider" then???
Aemon says it's a problem with translation...that prince = princess since High Valyrian is gender neutral. GRRM has really only given us a few High Valyrian words, none of which are "dragon". High Valyrian is written with glyphs. It's possible that Prince/Princess/Dragon are all the same glyph. Mayhaps Rhaeger didn't say "dragon that was promised" because there weren't any dragons then, but there were princes and princesses.
voice, I was on the plane Aug 23rd taking notes from Jaimie V, and I couldn't figure out why the dates kept coming up as Aug 23rd 2015. I forgot about it, picked it up (again) at the Bolton Brienne Jaime dinner, and....(cue Twilight Zone) I realize there are 2 sets of notes...the ones I added on Aug 23rd 2016 on my flight to Rome, and Aug 23rd 2015 when I last read & put the book down! Creepers....so yeah, was literally a year, and I like that chapter.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
voice , I was on the plane Aug 23rd taking notes from Jaimie V, and I couldn't figure out why the dates kept coming up as Aug 23rd 2015. I forgot about it, picked it up (again) at the Bolton Brienne Jaime dinner, and....(cue Twilight Zone) I realize there are 2 sets of notes...the ones I added on Aug 23rd 2016 on my flight to Rome, and Aug 23rd 2015 when I last read & put the book down! Creepers....so yeah, was literally a year, and I like that chapter.
Ha! That's pretty cool though!
You must be drawn to the dinner chapter this time of year... hmm.