This is interesting, but why is it relaying wrong information about Dany? It is just history. And although we care because we want to piece other information together, why would Dany care? Their whole family was murdered and they had fled the kingdom. That still stands.
And then there's our recent discussions in Jon at Starfall suggesting Dany might have some siblings or cousins. All conjecture, of course, but there are some striking discrepancies in Dany's memory and history that might suggest she has more family, or at least, a far different inheritance, than she realizes.
I agree with the fact that these early chapters set us up with wrong information about history, but they don't necessarily set us up about Dany up. I thought he meant more than information given to us about Dany.
And then there's our recent discussions in Jon at Starfall suggesting Dany might have some siblings or cousins. All conjecture, of course, but there are some striking discrepancies in Dany's memory and history that might suggest she has more family, or at least, a far different inheritance, than she realizes.
I agree with the fact that these early chapters set us up with wrong information about history, but they don't necessarily set us up about Dany up. I thought he meant more than information given to us about Dany.
Oh I hear ya. Only markg171 can really say what he meant, but I think it has been suggested that Dany's course of action has in large part been determined by who she thinks she is. If she's actually Rhaegar's daughter, and Aegon is actually Aegon, she has no claim to the throne. She'd still be in line behind her little brother, and the both of them were disinherited by Aerys (as Rhaegar's children). The only thing that gives Dany a claim is her father being Aerys. Otherwise, she's just another usurper.
Tangentially, I can't help but wonder if this is one reason she feels lost when she looks back. Perhaps her personal history doesn't make any sense when she reflects upon it.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
When he was gone, Dany went to her window and looked out wistfully on the waters of the bay. The square brick towers of Pentos were black silhouettes outlined against the setting sun. Dany could hear the singing of the red priests as they lit their night fires and the shouts of ragged children playing games beyond the walls of the estate. For a moment she wished she could be out there with them, barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters, with no past and no future and no feast to attend at Khal Drogo’s manse.
So, Dany is familiar with the red priests and their religion. This sounds like the perfect desire for a 13 year old, playing with no worries or burdens.
Somewhere beyond the sunset, across the narrow sea, lay a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stone rose amidst magnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the banners of their lords. The Dothraki called that land Rhaesh Andahli, the land of the Andals. In the Free Cities, they talked of Westeros and the Sunset Kingdoms. Her brother had a simpler name. “Our land,” he called it. The words were like a prayer with him. If he said them enough, the gods were sure to hear. “Ours by blood right, taken from us by treachery, but ours still, ours forever. You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers.”
Sounds like this is something Viserys has talked about often and might in truth have been something that would have been better overall for Dany not to have heard so much about.
And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of, Casterly Rock and the Eyrie, Highgarden and the Vale of Arryn, Dorne and the Isle of Faces, they were just words to her. Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King’s Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother’s womb.
This seems to be another discrepancy present. Was Viserys 7 or 8 years old in truth when this occurred? As much as Dany can't remember these lands their names have certainly been drilled into her head. She is able to name these places she has never seen quite easily.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
So, they've conversed on this. On how Targs marry siblings. And they are the only siblings--so, why in the name of all that's holy, has she not been thinking she'd be his queen?
Good question. Wish I knew the answer. I think you might get bonus points for this one! :::
But Illyrio later tells Tyrion he didn't expect Dany to make it. Sounds like Illyrio's either lying to Tyron or himself. Or just MASSIVELY underestimated Dany and thus any of his plans should not be trusted.
Huh--does Varys know how badly Illyrio miscalculated?
Think I'm going to go with massively underestimating Dany. But then again, he did send her off with three dragon eggs, so there is that. Could just be that there's something going on that we don't know about. Imagine that.
I find it interesting that Dany (our fire person) likens something she does not like and is afraid of to water. I am not sure it was intended in any ways, is just amusing to me
I agree that this is extremely creepy, but to be fair to Viserys, he is a pitiful soul. We see how Dany changes into a monster when she becomes the last Dragon. Shouldering the wight of a Dynasty is really tough when you are that young and the whole world is laughing at you.
You have a point. It's just hard to be sympathetic towards Viserys when he crosses lines with his behavior so easily.
Tangentially, I can't help but wonder if this is one reason she feels lost when she looks back. Perhaps her personal history doesn't make any sense when she reflects upon it.
Makes sense.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King’s Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper’s dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father’s throat with a golden sword.
She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.
She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper’s brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse , and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I just don't think Dany is Daenerys Targaryen. Oh I'm sure there was a Daenerys Targaryen, I just don't believe it's the girl we know.
Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister, Rhaella, was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king's infidelities, the queen did not approve of his "turning my ladies into his whores." (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace's service, nor was she the last). Relations between the king and queen grew even more strained when Rhaella proved unable to give Aerys any further children. Miscarriages in 263 and 264 were followed by a stillborn daughter born in 267. Prince Daeron, born in 269, survived for only half a year. Then came another stillbirth in 270, another miscarriage in 271, and Prince Aegon, born two turns premature in 272, dead in 273.
So when I say that Dany I sets up all this wrong information, it's because Dany doesn't know that it's wrong because she doesn't known any better. As far as she's aware everything she's saying in Dany 1 is perfectly fine and correct, it's when you either cross examine it with other accounts from other POVs or analyze certain things that don't seem to add up and that the information is "wrong" and was never right in the first place. That the information is wrong IMO because Dany doesn't know what it's supposed to actually be and therefore can't relay accurate information.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
This is a big red flag. We find out later from Illyrian that they had to post a guard to stop Viserys from "claiming" Dany before her wedding. And Dany remembers Viserys blaming her for not being born earlier so she could marry Rhaegar. And then she blamed him (Viserys) for not being a girl--and he beat her.
So, they've conversed on this. On how Targs marry siblings. And they are the only siblings--so, why in the name of all that's holy, has she not been thinking she'd be his queen?
Later in this very chapter she says she used to assume she'd marry Viserys. I reckon Viserys thought the same, until he was presented with the opportunity to sell her for an army. As for being 'queen', she's clearly very skeptical about his 'webs of dream'. Viserys was raised ąs pampered royalty, then thrust into a situation he was ill-equipped to deal with - Dany basically grew up in that situation, as an exile, caught between his brother's fantasies and the strongly contrasting reality. No wonder she doesn't share his delusions of grandeur.
Actually, they're a little bit like Arya and Sansa - the latter being the perfect little lady, living in her songs, the former hanging out with the smallfolk. They have very different ideas as to how life works, and they were raised in the same household, by the same people.
Think I'm going to go with massively underestimating Dany. But then again, he did send her off with three dragon eggs, so there is that. Could just be that there's something going on that we don't know about. Imagine that.
YUP! Those eggs plus the statement to Tyrion--something's up with Illyrio.
Later in this very chapter she says she used to assume she'd marry Viserys. I reckon Viserys thought the same, until he was presented with the opportunity to sell her for an army. As for being 'queen', she's clearly very skeptical about his 'webs of dream'. Viserys was raised ąs pampered royalty, then thrust into a situation he was ill-equipped to deal with - Dany basically grew up in that situation, as an exile, caught between his brother's fantasies and the strongly contrasting reality. No wonder she doesn't share his delusions of grandeur.
Well done, ser! You've solved it!
So, the problem is not that she doesn't think they'll marry, but that she doesn't believe he'll be king. Which is interesting later on when she fully embraces his basic plan and intent to take the iron throne.
Actually, they're a little bit like Arya and Sansa - the latter being the perfect little lady, living in her songs, the former hanging out with the smallfolk. They have very different ideas as to how life works, and they were raised in the same household, by the same people.
Now, that's a parallel I'd not thought of. Need to give that a think. Would have thought more Cersei and Tyrion. . . maybe.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Later in this very chapter she says she used to assume she'd marry Viserys. I reckon Viserys thought the same, until he was presented with the opportunity to sell her for an army. As for being 'queen', she's clearly very skeptical about his 'webs of dream'. Viserys was raised ąs pampered royalty, then thrust into a situation he was ill-equipped to deal with - Dany basically grew up in that situation, as an exile, caught between his brother's fantasies and the strongly contrasting reality. No wonder she doesn't share his delusions of grandeur.
Plus she's never lived in grandeur. Even later in the novel she admits that her servants once bothered her as she wasn't used to being fussed over.
Actually, they're a little bit like Arya and Sansa - the latter being the perfect little lady, living in her songs, the former hanging out with the smallfolk. They have very different ideas as to how life works, and they were raised in the same household, by the same people.
I like this comparison. :::
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King’s Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper’s dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father’s throat with a golden sword.
We have some more discrepancies here. First, Jaime has Rhaella leaving for the docks in the morning. Why would the boat have left at night. Why would it need to use black sails. Not even Myrcella's boat did this. Wouldn't they have been guarded by other ships as well? How would Viserys even be aware of most of this? Especially the golden sword. Is that something that would be important enough to be passed along once they were gone from Kings Landing?
She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.
If the fleet was smashed how did they eventually leave? It seems like they might be stretching to have something to tie to Dany's birth.
She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper’s brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse , and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.
Where did Ser Darry and his men come from? We're they already there? Why did they need to break into the nursery? We're the children locked in there? Was Viserys? We're they together? How much did Viseys really see? I also find it interesting that a family of old Dragon Lords would seek refuge in Bravos of all places. Doesn't seem like a very natural alliance. It's also interesting that when Tyrion sent Myrcella to Dorne she went by way of Bravos.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father’s throat with a golden sword.
How would Viserys even be aware of most of this? Especially the golden sword. Is that something that would be important enough to be passed along once they were gone from Kings Landing?
Yes--this last "memory" for Viserys underlines the basic problem of his information. He was just a little boy. And has been told stories (from Darry? The good and loyal man?)
As for the golden sword--seems like a detail that underscores Jaime as traitor AND disgraced Kingsguqrd, opening "father's" throat with the golden sword that should have protected "father."
As for the midnight sail vs. the morning one in Jaime's account--I'm assuming the flight from dragonstone makes sense for "midnight." But yes, when they went to Dragonstone--Tyrion sent Myrcella with an escort, and he was worried about his fleet. The idea that the queen and the prince would be sent without an escort.. . . granted, Dragonstone isn't nearly as far as Sunspear. But still. Viserys' memory is off. And @prettypig has this right.
Where did Ser Darry and his men come from? We're they already there? Why did they need to break into the nursery? We're the children locked in there? Was Viserys? We're they together? How much did Viseys really see?
Yes--the bolded is a big red flag. What's up with that?
I also find it interesting that a family of old Dragon Lords would seek refuge in Bravos of all places. Doesn't seem like a very natural alliance.
Good catch! Especially when Martin has Tycho Nestoris come all the way to the Wall, in purple, to tell Jon how much he should NOT want a dragon or the return of the dragons. Underlining for the reader how the Braavosi are NOT allies/friends of dragons. Another reason to doubt the red door issue.
It's also interesting that when Tyrion sent Myrcella to Dorne she went by way of Bravos.
On the boat called the "Lady Lyanna." With 2 Kingsguard.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him , but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her “Little Princess” and sometimes “My Lady,” and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.
They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper’s hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.
At first the magisters and archons and merchant princes were pleased to welcome the last Targaryens to their homes and tables, but as the years passed and the Usurper continued to sit upon the Iron Throne, doors closed and their lives grew meaner. Years past they had been forced to sell their last few treasures, and now even the coin they had gotten from Mother’s crown had gone. In the alleys and wine sinks of Pentos, they called her brother “the beggar king .” Dany did not want to know what they called her.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him , but he had always been kind to Dany.
Okay--this is the "good man" who is loyal. Half blind? I'd completely forgotten this. How much of a protector could he be?
He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor.
Hmm. . . what's his illness? And how long was he ill? And how long was he bed-bound? If Dany remembers him as bed bound, why does she dream of him leaning on his stick? Was he ever mobile in her actual memory? What sent him downhill so very fast--injury?
After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.
If they are put out of the big house, were they allowed into other houses? And if they were guests of someone powerful, why did Darry have "power" or leverage to keep them all there if he was bedbound? Why were they really thrown out? Just for Darry's death? That makes no sense--how is Darry the powerful one vs. the potential Targ heirs?
They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper’s hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.
Wait--so did Viserys say they were thrown out? Or was he paranoid without Darry and insisted on running? Dany's never seen a "hunter" after them. But Viserys seems certain. . . keeps them moving. So, did he pull them out of the house?
Years past they had been forced to sell their last few treasures, and now even the coin they had gotten from Mother’s crown had gone. In the alleys and wine sinks of Pentos, they called her brother “the beggar king .” Dany did not want to know what they called her.
So, does she hear them call her brother the beggar king? Or does Viserys tell her that they call her this?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
So much here makes me doubt everything. The jewels support them for years. Yet they're thrown out and homeless. Which is true?
The sweet smell of him...poison?
Could have been Oberyn. I still think that the pact was just an insurance policy encase the Targ kids ever got ready to invade. Viserys showed signs of madness even before he went into exile. Not the horse I'd attach my cart to.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!