If anyone's unfamiliar with Lemongate, it's the idea that Dany's memories of the house with the red door don't seem to actually fit Braavos. Mainly because Dany says there was a lemon tree in the backyard, and lemons don't grow in Braavos. This video delves into some other stuff too, but for the most part it's about the house with the red door and it's inconsistencies.
So what do you think? Was Dany raised in Braavos? Or was she actually raised somewhere else?
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I don't think Dany was raised in Bravos, but I have no proof, just vague gut feelings...most likely because George is playing with the whole question of identity throughout the series.
Post by regular jon umber on Jul 31, 2015 12:08:13 GMT
I think it would be really interesting if it turned out that not only was the Lemon Tree not in Braavos, but that it was in her childhood home, before she was snatched and forced to pretend to be a Targaryen ...
I think it would be really interesting if it turned out that not only was the Lemon Tree not in Braavos, but that it was in her childhood home, before she was snatched and forced to pretend to be a Targaryen ...
I believe @prettypig postulated it was in Dorne
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I think it would be really interesting if it turned out that not only was the Lemon Tree not in Braavos, but that it was in her childhood home, before she was snatched and forced to pretend to be a Targaryen ...
I believe @prettypig postulated it was in Dorne
I think she's right. My guess is that Ashara Dayne fled with her, due to Ned's warning right after the rebellion, which is why "her heart was broken" and "her body was never found".
Last Edit: Jul 31, 2015 12:49:20 GMT by Deleted: ps, I can't decide if Dany is Elleria's or Ashara's child.
We need freyfamilyreunion over here. He had a great thread about the possibility of her growing up in a poleboat along the Greenblood.
I definitely think she was in the south somewhere, and she certainly could have started out in Dorne, but I think thsoe first few years were in Tyrosh - there are far too many subtle but weird connections to Tyrosh for it not to be a sleeper hub of importance.
I'm still puzzling through her origin story using some of the clues in the current universe, like the thing I posted about Tyrion sending Myrcella to Dorne by way of Braavos. One of these days I hope to find the missing piece that links all this stuff together.
I think she's right. My guess is that Ashara Dayne fled with her, due to Ned's warning right after the rebellion, which is why "her heart was broken" and "her body was never found".
I see where you're going with this, I think. Ned returns Dawn, gets Ashara pregnant, she has a 'still born' daughter and then 'kills herself'. That daughter is actually Dany and ends up as Rhaella's child because hers was actually the still born one.
With Varys in charge of rumours at the Red Keep, it's possible. He could be the source of the news that Barristan has. I don't think Varys would have told Selmy himself, but it could be he told Robert and Barristan over heard it.
I like it. It has a lot of problems, but it's interesting all the same.
Yes, although I am leaning to the father being Aerys. I think to be a "child of three" there needs to be two assumed parents, and one hidden.
I see where you're going with this, I think. Ned returns Dawn, gets Ashara pregnant, she has a 'still born' daughter and then 'kills herself'. That daughter is actually Dany and ends up as Rhaella's child because hers was actually the still born one.
That would also tie in with Cersei telling Ned about the child he stole away from Ashara- she might not have realized it, but it would still be ironic.
i don't think it's coincidental that some Daynes have Targ features. Although, who would tell Dany about this and how?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
If Selmy got the story of Ashara from over hearing what was said in Small Counsel meeting, then Varys would know and so would Illyrio. Now would they tell her the truth when she's poised to take over Westeros as the rightful queen? What purpose would it serve to have here know she's not a real Targaryen? Unless they opt to put fAegon on the throne instead of her.
I guess: how would it reveal itself in the novel? But a back up plan makes sense- LF seemed to have a back up with Joffrey, too
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Might not be nothing but I looked over the Viserys and Dany interactions once, and almost every single time he calls her "sweet sister". The only time that he doesn't IIRC is right before he's crowned when he's drunk. It almost seems like an engrained phrase how he always calls her that.
And then the other interesting thing is that the phrase "sweet sister" for almost every other time it's used is used sarcastically. Like when Tyrion refers to Cersei or when Lysa refers to Catelyn after she just brought Tyrion to the Vale. But the most interesting thing if we're wondering if Dany really is Viserys' sister is that Arianne uses to phrase to describe one of the Sand Snakes... who she wished was her sister.
Again might be nothing. But thought it was interesting nonetheless
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Anguy shuffled his feet. "We were thinking we might eat it, Sharna. With lemons. If you had some."
"Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too." She shook a finger at him. "Now, I suppose I could cook it with Lem's cloak, if you like, but not till it's hung for a few days. You'll eat rabbit, or you won't eat. Roast rabbit on a spit would be quickest, if you've got a hunger. Or might be you'd like it stewed, with ale and onions."
The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men
A second, rival High King of Dorne also existed during the times of the First Men, ruling from a great wooden motte-and-bailey castle on the south bank of Greenwood near Lemonwood, where the river flows into the Summer Sea. This was a curious kingship, for whenever a king died, his successor was chosen by election from amongst a dozen noble families that had settled along the river or the eastern shores. The Wades, Shells, Holts, Brooks, Hulls, Lakes, Brownhills, and Briars all threw up kings who ruled from the high hall amongst the lemon trees, but in the end this curious system broke down when a disputed election set the royal houses to warring against one another. After a generation of conflict, three of the old houses were wiped from the earth, and the once-powerful river realm had shattered into a dozen quarrelsome petty kingdoms.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever. Red Door = Red Dorne
Red Mountains of Dorne, Red Viper of Dorne, sweet red wines from Dorne, red sands of Dorne...
A Feast for Crows - The Queenmaker
"We are in part, Your Grace. Nymeria's blood is in me, along with that of Mors Martell, the Dornish lord she married. On the day they wed, Nymeria fired her ships, so her people would understand that there could be no going back. Most were glad to see those flames, for their voyagings had been long and terrible before they came to Dorne, and many and more had been lost to storm, disease, and slavery. There were a few who mourned, however. They did not love this dry red land or its seven-faced god, so they clung to their old ways, hammered boats together from the hulks of the burned ships, and became the orphans of the Greenblood. The Mother in their songs is not our Mother, but Mother Rhoyne, whose waters nourished them from the dawn of days."
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
And best of all, Lord Nestor’s cooks prepared a splendid subtlety, a lemon cake in the shape of the Giant’s Lance, twelve feet tall and adorned with an Eyrie made of sugar.
For me, Alayne thought, as they wheeled it out. Sweetrobin loved lemon cakes too, but only after she told him that they were her favorites. The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more.
In book 6 we are once again being reminded that lemons = Dorne
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Mojo and @serduncan, on how it might work into the novels: Again, totally speculating here...but somewhere there is a mention of a Second Dance. Usually (F)aegon gets tapped. I think it's Dany, whom everyone expects; and Tyrion, of the green and black eyes.Ironically and unknowingly, they would be two Great Bastards repeating history.