aww I guess this means Jon will hand over Longclaw to a Mormont
I'm all for Lyanna Mormont's getting that sword back. Kid that awesome deserves a sword!
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
So, about that... are you suggesting he is Arthur and Lyanna's, or Ned and Ashara's? In the latter case, it seems he would either be a Sand or a Stark, depending on whether they got married in secret. But not a Dayne.
It is a very interesting proposition when you sit back and examine the evidence. I'll lay some of it out below. Rather than be handed down from father to son, Dawn is bestowed upon "knights" from Starfall who are deemed "worthy".
GRRM has only given us bits and pieces of the Dawn/SotM puzzle, and they are spread hither and yon. The Citadel: 10.2.4.1. The Daynes of Starfall
Starfall sits on the shores of the Summer Sea (I: 55) The Daynes may be largely violet-eyed (I: 55) The Daynes have a famous greatsword, named Dawn whose blade is as pale as milkglass (I: 354) The sister of Arthur Dayne, Ashara Dayne, threw herself into the sea after Eddard Stark brought her the familial sword Dawn which the Sword of the Morning carried (I: 407) The sword Dawn was forged from the heart of a fallen star (II: 243) Ser Arthur Dayne was Prince Rhaegar Targaryen's oldest friend (III: 90) Arthur Dayne was said to be the only knight in the realm who was Prince Rhaegar's peer (III: 90) At least some Daynes are fair-haired (III: 387, 493) Edric Dayne, lord of Starfall, was born in the 287th year after Aegon's Conquest, the only son of the prior Lord Dayne who had been elder brother to Ser Arthur, Ashara, and the still-living Allyria (III: 493-495. SSM: 1) Ashara Dayne threw herself from a tower at Starfall called the Palestone Sword (III: 495) Allyria Dayne says her sister Ashara fell in love with Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell at the great tournament at Harrenhal, and killed herself because of a broken heart (III: 495) The Smiling Knight was a madman, chivalry and cruelty all jumbled together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. When Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood, he fought against the squire Jaime Lannister and then against the Sword of the Morning with Dawn in his hands. The outlaw's sword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. When the robber knight told Dayne that it was Dawn that he wanted when the fight resumed, Ser Arthur responded that he would have it and made an end of it, killing him (III: 753) Ulrik Dayne was a past Sword of the Morning, and clearly accounted one of the great warriors in 211, although it is not clear when he actually lived (TSS: 137) Sword of the Morning is an office that some men of House Dayne are selected to hold if they're deemed worthy to carry Dawn (TSS: 137. SSM: 1, 2, SSM: 3) A cadet branch of the family serve as vassals to Starfall, ruling as the Knights of High Hermitage, a castle in the mountains (IV: 300) The Daynes and Oakhearts have fought one another for several thousand years (IV: 302) The Daynes have existed for ten thousand years, to the dawn of days, it's said (IV: 304) Ashara Dayne was not stuck in Starfall the entire time of the war, apparently, and was a lady in waiting to Princess Elia in the first few years of her marriage to Prince Rhaegar (SSM: 1) Ashara Dayne's body was never recovered from the sea (SSM: 1) Dawn is at least a few thousand years old, and beyond that matters grow hazy (SSM: 1) The family is not descended at all from Valyrian blood (SSM: 1) The greatsword Dawn has had an illustrious history (SSM: 1)
- The same guy asked about the Daynes and the Sword of the Morning, asking how that title is decided. George said the Sword of the Morning is always a member of House Dayne, someone who is deemed worthy of wielding Dawn as decided within the House, that whoever it is would have to earn the right to wield it.
What happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara?
Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.
The reason I quite like this SSM above is that it dates to January 1, 2002. ASOS was published in 2000, and AFFC came three years later in 2005.
George's "spakings" often mirror things he's already published, and I think this is one such example. This quote will be familiar to you from SlyWren 's threads, but in the above it seems to me he has only paraphrased what he wrote below:
A Storm of Swords - Jon IV Ghost was gone when the wildings led their horses from the cave. Did he understand about Castle Black? Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface.
It is a beautiful passage, and seems to be Jon's moment alone. Even Ghost is gone - his tether to House Stark...
If it's A+L, and there was a wedding, he would definitely be a Dayne and SotM. But then why the secrecy? (I'm not criticizing or disagreeing, just trying to flesh out the theory and making sure I understand what it is.)
Indeed. But that's just it, Ned not only thinks about secrets as old as Jon, he thinks about "broken promises" as old as Jon. I think this suggests that Ned was supposed to tell Jon about his parentage, and simply never did. He became too accustomed to living his lie, and to Jon calling him "father." Jon was the Stark-looking son he might've never had, after all.
I think I place far less import on whether or not children are trueborn than you. While blood might wield certain properties, personal choices matter far more. And I think GRRM intends to armor Jon in his bastardy:
A Game of Thrones - Jon I He cocked his oversized head to one side and looked Jon over with his mismatched eyes. “I am Tyrion Lannister.” “I know,” Jon said. He rose. Standing, he was taller than the dwarf. It made him feel strange. “You’re Ned Stark’s bastard, aren’t you?” Jon felt a coldness pass right through him. He pressed his lips together and said nothing. “Did I offend you?” Lannister said. “Sorry. Dwarfs don’t have to be tactful. Generations of capering fools in motley have won me the right to dress badly and say any damn thing that comes into my head.” He grinned. “You are the bastard, though.” “Lord Eddard Stark is my father,” Jon admitted stiffly. Lannister studied his face. “Yes,” he said. “I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.” "Half brothers," Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf's comment, but he tried not to let it show. "Let me give you some counsel, bastard," Lannister said. "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you." Jon was in no mood for anyone's counsel. "What do you know about being a bastard?"
I definitely agree Rhaegar intentionally placed Arthur in Dorne, and maybe even at that tower. But I think the last thing in the world those 3 KG expected (or Rhaegar), was Eddard Stark and his half dozen heroes to pay a visit.
Yes--it does seem like Rhaegar absolutely thought he'd succeed against "Cousin Robert." Whoops.
Exactly. The summers had supposedly grown shorter since the last dragons died (according to the Dunk and Egg novellas), yet at the onset of AGoT, we find one that has lasted all of Bran's life. And, once dragons had been hatched and returned to the world, Summer ended.
So it seems the dragons are not lightbringer. Only Dawn ends the night.
And the service to the dragons--seems to also be a problem. Which would tie into LmL's analysis re: the Bloodstone Emperor.
Arthur, Sword of the Morning--did he belong in his post instead of in service to a dragon king? Like Ned at the start of Game, executing a deserter in Robert's name. But, if it's the Starks' duty to deal with the North and the Wall, he should execute (or not) in his OWN name. In the name of King of Winter.
The Sword of the Morning served/sword allegiance to a Dragon. The Stark in Winterfell served/swore allegiance to a Stag (and Dragon cousin). Both were like brothers to them. But took them from their duty? Their role?
Might be a bit too tidy. But it would make the stuff about why the Starks failed not be ALL on the Starks. It's also showing us what happened in the south. And might explain why we spend so much time there.
And on the kinslaying stuff, that makes a lot of sense. I'm of the mind that Starks and Daynes are indeed closely related, and yes, I definitely blame Arthur's death for the return of the Others... kinslaying would be a nice addition to that belief. But alas it is not easy to prove Fantasy Paleogenetic theories.
One way or another, I really think Martin's stressed the kinslaying thing for a reason.
And he stresses it via Ygritte at the en of the Bael Tale. Which has echoes in Ashara's and Arthur's deaths. One way or another, that part of the tale is tied to Ned's killing Arthur.
I'm not sure. I mean, I think so. But I would love to hear further explanation.
I suppose in my head-canon, Arthur nearly killed Ned... but didn't.
Just like the original Sword of the Morning, he defeated/disarmed Night's King, but did not kill him.
If things had ended there and then, I think the world would have been okay. The perilous balance hinged upon the perpetual victory of Dawn when facing a King of Winter....which Ned was at that point since his Lord Father and Lord Brother had each died.
I agree up to a point--I'm thinking it would have been bad either way. Perpetual Dawn would be the Long Day. No more stars.
Which could create its own problems. There has to be a balance--wolfmaid7 is right on this.
So--they can't triumph over each other. They have to keep the balance. I think.
Plus, in the Ygritte tale, if either man had killed the other, the gods would still have hated him. And disaster would ensue.
I see the "Battle for the Dawn" in a very literal light (heh) and place the greatsword of House Dayne at its center. The sword is just a sword. But it represents the return of light after the long night. That, imo, is the forgotten piece of the puzzle.
I agree. But also--the battle for the return of the cycle of day and night. Only Dawn can break the long night--and restore the cycle. Not END night permanently. Just put it in its place.
So to backtrack again a bit, while Arthur Dayne defeated Ned, he did not kill him. I'm sure we all would agree Arthur was capable of doing the job. Yet he didn't. It could be that Howland Reed simply intervened too quickly, but in my head-canon, Arthur hesitated.
As does Bael? A mix of the stories?
I'm now toying with the possibility--did Ned have to put Arthur out of his misery after whatever Howland did?
Knowing he played a part in his nephew's father's death is likely enough to satisfy this requirement, but it would be even more haunting if Ned really did do it himself.
Which is a perfect summation of the entire series, I think.
Yup!
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
And the service to the dragons--seems to also be a problem. Which would tie into LmL's analysis re: the Bloodstone Emperor.
Arthur, Sword of the Morning--did he belong in his post instead of in service to a dragon king? Like Ned at the start of Game, executing a deserter in Robert's name. But, if it's the Starks' duty to deal with the North and the Wall, he should execute (or not) in his OWN name. In the name of King of Winter.
The Sword of the Morning served/sword allegiance to a Dragon. The Stark in Winterfell served/swore allegiance to a Stag (and Dragon cousin). Both were like brothers to them. But took them from their duty? Their role?
Might be a bit too tidy. But it would make the stuff about why the Starks failed not be ALL on the Starks. It's also showing us what happened in the south. And might explain why we spend so much time there.
Might be a tad too tidy, but eventually all of this stuff has to come together to actually mean something...I hope. LOL
One way or another, I really think Martin's stressed the kinslaying thing for a reason.
And he stresses it via Ygritte at the en of the Bael Tale. Which has echoes in Ashara's and Arthur's deaths. One way or another, that part of the tale is tied to Ned's killing Arthur.
Yup, I do too. It's like the laws of guestright stuff. Starks might not take southron laws all that seriously, but they do seem to consider these with some weight.
I agree up to a point--I'm thinking it would have been bad either way. Perpetual Dawn would be the Long Day. No more stars.
Which could create its own problems. There has to be a balance--wolfmaid7 is right on this.
So--they can't triumph over each other. They have to keep the balance. I think.
Plus, in the Ygritte tale, if either man had killed the other, the gods would still have hated him. And disaster would ensue.
I think you're misunderstanding me a bit. I'm not saying Dawn must prevail with any degree of finality, only that it must always prevail to end darkness. The Long Night was a night that was too long because dawn was absent/negated. What we have seen since the Long Night has been relatively balanced, each dusk gives way to darkness, but is repeatedly kept at bay not by Mel's nightfires, but the eventual rising of the dawn.
Not a perpetual daylight, but a cycle of Dawn's perpetual victory over Night in order to return the Day(ne).
I think a tenuous balance was attained when the first SotM cast down the King of the Long Night (aka, the true king of winter). Once a descendant of Bran the Builder (the 13th Hero/Lord Commander) faced the SotM in combat, it was a recreation of that original downfall. Ned nearly died, but was spared. The same is true for NK.
If it had been left at that, or if Arthur would have killed the King of Winter's heir, I think things would have remained relatively in tact. Impossible to say with any certainty of course. But the fact that the reverse came true, and a descendant of BtB/NK instead vanquished Dawn, and the Sword of the Morning that is the herald of sunrise itself, set into motion the return of the Others. They no longer had anything to fear. The Sword of the Morning is dead. Killed by a man named Stark to boot.
To this day, no SotM exists, and the heir of Starfall is calling Jon "brother." This to me suggest that Jon will be the one to bridge the divide, and be something neither Arthur or Eddard could be. And rather than be 'it' in spite of his bastardy, he will be it because of his bastardy.
I agree. But also--the battle for the return of the cycle of day and night. Only Dawn can break the long night--and restore the cycle. Not END night permanently. Just put it in its place.
Sure. I'm not talking about a permanent end to natural darkness, only the end of magically-long darkness and the attempt of blue stars to fall upon the south.
I'm now toying with the possibility--did Ned have to put Arthur out of his misery after whatever Howland did?
I'd like to think it wasn't Ned who dealt Arthur the coup de grace, but it seems the only possible scenario that would explain why Ned shouldered the credit/blame for Arthur's death, the return of Dawn to Starfall, the recurring guilt, and the return of archaic transgressions with bodies of ice.
Yup, I do too. It's like the laws of guestright stuff. Starks might not take southron laws all that seriously, but they do seem to consider these with some weight.
I think you're misunderstanding me a bit. I'm not saying Dawn must prevail with any degree of finality, only that it must always prevail to end darkness. The Long Night was a night that was too long because dawn was absent/negated. What we have seen since the Long Night has been relatively balanced, each dusk gives way to darkness, but is repeatedly kept at bay not by Mel's nightfires, but the eventual rising of the dawn.
Not a perpetual daylight, but a cycle of Dawn's perpetual victory over Night in order to return the Day(ne).
I think a tenuous balance was attained when the first SotM cast down the King of the Long Night (aka, the true king of winter). Once a descendant of Bran the Builder (the 13th Hero/Lord Commander) faced the SotM in combat, it was a recreation of that original downfall. Ned nearly died, but was spared. The same is true for NK.
Ah! I see. And I agree.
I'm also starting to think that the Daynes' serving the dragons might be a problem, too.
She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame. Game, Dany IX
Daylight and sunlight? Good--life, happy planet, etc..
Stars? Stars in a DAYLIGHT sky?? Like what Jon sees???
The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, Storm, Jon IV
Again--stars smile. Stars in the daylight sky is happy, and sex, and home.
So what ruins it all? The child? Maybe. But definitely the aftermath of the child--the stars are gone. And the world takes flame.
The Stark in Winterfell killed the Sword of the Morning. But the Last Dragon co-opted the Sword of the Morning. The stars can be seen in daylight. By not by dragon fire?
To this day, no SotM exists, and the heir of Starfall is calling Jon "brother." This to me suggest that Jon will be the one to bridge the divide, and be something neither Arthur or Eddard could be. And rather than be 'it' in spite of his bastardy, he will be it because of his bastardy.
Sure. I'm not talking about a permanent end to natural darkness, only the end of magically-long darkness and the attempt of blue stars to fall upon the south.
Amen. To make the stars smile down vs. blue eyes of the Stranger. Or the dragon fire of the Last Dragon.
I'd like to think it wasn't Ned who dealt Arthur the coup de grace, but it seems the only possible scenario that would explain why Ned shouldered the credit/blame for Arthur's death, the return of Dawn to Starfall, the recurring guilt, and the return of archaic transgressions with bodies of ice.
Yes--which is why I'm wondering if it wasn't an act of mercy. Arya refuses to do it for the Hound (who, as you know, I think is echoing aspects of Arthur).
But Ned is not as vengeance driven as Arya, perhaps. And he's not an angry young child trying to figure out the world, either. I'm thinking Ned would be merciful where Arya's only "justice" and her list.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
We're you talking about this somewhere else. I'm vaguely remembering a discussion surrounding the boy being struck by lightning and the destroyed tower at Winterfell. Something strange is definitely going on.
Yes--I swear we were talking about it weeks or months ago. But I also think it was in a convo with Dunc, so it's probably half gone.
One way or another:The crows are fine with him--until he "must" fall. Until it's time to open his third eye.
But "pecking out his eyes"--we have Thistle clawing her eyes out when Varamyr tries to skin change her. But her eye sockets still burn blue when wighted. And, given Symeon Star-Eyes is said to be blind and THEN to put the sapphires in his eyes--to alleviate blindness--seems like a question might be: why was he blinded? And was it crow-related???
That said: on the lightning:
When Ned's on his way to Mott's, he sees Beric:
The Mud Gate was open, and a squad of City Watchmen stood under the portcullis in their golden cloaks, leaning on spears. When a column of riders appeared from the west, the guardsmen sprang into action, shouting commands and moving the carts and foot traffic aside to let the knight enter with his escort. The first rider through the gate carried a long black banner. The silk rippled in the wind like a living thing; across the fabric was blazoned a night sky slashed with purple lightning. "Make way for Lord Beric!" the rider shouted. "Make way for Lord Beric!" And close behind came the young lord himself, a dashing figure on a black courser, with red-gold hair and a black satin cloak dusted with stars. "Here to fight in the Hand's tourney, my lord?" a guardsman called out to him. "Here to win the Hand's tourney," Lord Beric shouted back as the crowd cheered. Game, Eddard VI
The night sky lighted/torn/ended by a flash of lightning. A purple "sword."
The symbolism is noted by Sansa, too. First with Jeyne at the tourney.
Jeyne Poole confessed herself frightened by the look of Jalabhar Xho, an exile prince from the Summer Isles who wore a cape of green and scarlet feathers over skin as dark as night, but when she saw young Lord Beric Dondarrion, with his hair like red gold and his black shield slashed by lightning, she pronounced herself willing to marry him on the instant. Game, Sansa II
And then, significantly, at dawn (yes, I'll go put this in the dawn thread if you haven't already got it), after a night raid on the kitchen:
The kitchen yielded no lemon cakes, but they did find half of a cold strawberry pie, and that was almost as good. They ate it on the tower steps, giggling and gossiping and sharing secrets, and Sansa went to bed that night feeling almost as wicked as Arya. Game, Sansa III
The "approximate" satisfaction of strawberries instead of lemons--followed up by the "almost" hero of the morning, Beric?????
The next morning she woke before first light and crept sleepily to her window to watch Lord Beric form up his men. They rode out as dawn was breaking over the city, with three banners going before them; the crowned stag of the king flew from the high staff, the direwolf of Stark and Lord Beric's own forked lightning standard from shorter poles. It was all so exciting, a song come to life; the clatter of swords, the flicker of torchlight, banners dancing in the wind, horses snorting and whinnying, the golden glow of sunrise slanting through the bars of the portcullis as it jerked upward. The Winterfell men looked especially fine in their silvery mail and long grey cloaks. Game, Sansa III
I keep finding it: Black Crow is right re: Beric's sigil and standard are pointers to the Daynes. And that standard breaks/cuts through the night sky. A sword/bolt that cuts the darkness. The Lightning Lord's cut is temporary. But dawn--Dawn--would bring lasting light.
And everything I've said here has probably been argued much better by LmL .
Hey @sly Wren. What caught my eye in your comments is the thing about Beric's standard being below the Stark sigil. Following on your association between Beric and House Dayne, what does that say? It says a fire-associated Dayne with a starry cloak become loyal to the Starks, or even became a Stark, symbolically. This lines up with resurrected Beric sitting in a type of weirwood throne and having one eye, the spitting image of Bloodraven. This is the phenomena I refer to as the fiery greenseers, of which I believe Azor Ahai / the Bloodstone Emperor was the captain. Beric is showing us AA and BSE symbolism (because they are the same person).
In the BSE category we have married to a potentially amethyst eyed person (think Amethyst Empress), starry cloak / starry wisdom (the starry sky is even described like an old cloak one time), and the lord of corpses monicker (BSE said to practice necromancy).
In the AA category we have the flaming sword... duh. The fact that he likes to fight wth another fire associated dude with a flaming sword is a match for my idea of the comet being split in half, just as Ned's Ice was.
Throw in the clear allusion to Bloodraven and we have Azor Ahai the undead greenseer. He may well have left some genes in Westeros. He may have married a Dayne, and his son may have been the Last Hero, who knows.
Azor Ahai the undead greenseer may have become loyal to the Starks, or may even have became a Stark. I tend to think resurrected AA might be the NK, while the LH might be his son - but is the LH a "Stark" or a Dayne? Or might it be switched, with the son as the NK? Any way you slice it, the idea of Beric serving both the Starks and dead King Robert, who is a giant and a horned god (horned gods / horned lords = greenseers / green men, IMO, some of whom became the fiery greenseers I am talking about).
One way or another:The crows are fine with him--until he "must" fall. Until it's time to open his third eye.
But "pecking out his eyes"--we have Thistle clawing her eyes out when Varamyr tries to skin change her. But her eye sockets still burn blue when wighted. And, given Symeon Star-Eyes is said to be blind and THEN to put the sapphires in his eyes--to alleviate blindness--seems like a question might be: why was he blinded? And was it crow-related???
That said: on the lightning:
When Ned's on his way to Mott's, he sees Beric:
The night sky lighted/torn/ended by a flash of lightning. A purple "sword."
The symbolism is noted by Sansa, too. First with Jeyne at the tourney.
And then, significantly, at dawn (yes, I'll go put this in the dawn thread if you haven't already got it), after a night raid on the kitchen:
The "approximate" satisfaction of strawberries instead of lemons--followed up by the "almost" hero of the morning, Beric?????
I keep finding it: Black Crow is right re: Beric's sigil and standard are pointers to the Daynes. And that standard breaks/cuts through the night sky. A sword/bolt that cuts the darkness. The Lightning Lord's cut is temporary. But dawn--Dawn--would bring lasting light.
And everything I've said here has probably been argued much better by LmL .
Hey @sly Wren. What caught my eye in your comments is the thing about Beric's standard being below the Stark sigil. Following on your association between Beric and House Dayne, what does that say? It says a fire-associated Dayne with a starry cloak become loyal to the Starks, or even became a Stark, symbolically. This lines up with resurrected Beric sitting in a type of weirwood throne and having one eye, the spitting image of Bloodraven. This is the phenomena I refer to as the fiery greenseers, of which I believe Azor Ahai / the Bloodstone Emperor was the captain. Beric is showing us AA and BSE symbolism (because they are the same person).
In the BSE category we have married to a potentially amethyst eyed person (think Amethyst Empress), starry cloak / starry wisdom (the starry sky is even described like an old cloak one time), and the lord of corpses monicker (BSE said to practice necromancy).
In the AA category we have the flaming sword... duh. The fact that he likes to fight wth another fire associated dude with a flaming sword is a match for my idea of the comet being split in half, just as Ned's Ice was.
Throw in the clear allusion to Bloodraven and we have Azor Ahai the undead greenseer. He may well have left some genes in Westeros. He may have married a Dayne, and his son may have been the Last Hero, who knows.
Azor Ahai the undead greenseer may have become loyal to the Starks, or may even have became a Stark. I tend to think resurrected AA might be the NK, while the LH might be his son - but is the LH a "Stark" or a Dayne? Or might it be switched, with the son as the NK? Any way you slice it, the idea of Beric serving both the Starks and dead King Robert, who is a giant and a horned god (horned gods / horned lords = greenseers / green men, IMO, some of whom became the fiery greenseers I am talking about).
A quick quip...
The world book, fwiw, seems to name the Last Hero "Brandon the Builder."
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Hey @sly Wren. What caught my eye in your comments is the thing about Beric's standard being below the Stark sigil. Following on your association between Beric and House Dayne, what does that say? It says a fire-associated Dayne with a starry cloak become loyal to the Starks, or even became a Stark, symbolically. This lines up with resurrected Beric sitting in a type of weirwood throne and having one eye, the spitting image of Bloodraven. This is the phenomena I refer to as the fiery greenseers, of which I believe Azor Ahai / the Bloodstone Emperor was the captain. Beric is showing us AA and BSE symbolism (because they are the same person).
Ooh!! I like it. And it fits with the new bug in my brain re: fire vs. stars with magics.
Though it raises an interesting possible parallel between Beric the fire wight with little memory of self and Blodraven the . . . tree wight? That sounds odd. Hopefully you take my point. But Bloodraven also has little memory of self at times.
And I like the idea of their being the same person. . . .especially since the fire side (wight) seems to corrupt the star side (The dashing Lightning Lord).
In the BSE category we have married to a potentially amethyst eyed person (think Amethyst Empress), starry cloak / starry wisdom (the starry sky is even described like an old cloak one time), and the lord of corpses monicker (BSE said to practice necromancy).
Yup!
And I'm thinking it fits with Dany's dream before she hatches her dragons.
As I said to voice in the post above yours: the stars smile down. All is happy and full of life and love and sex and natural cycles and home. Then the stars disappear and the dragon appears and the whole world takes flame. And, after the dream, she's left with the pain of fire inside her and "the whisperings of stars." Dany as both BSE and Amethyst Empress? In conflict between fire and stars?
Dany puts her faith in the stars--calls Drogo sun-and-stars dozens of times in the novels. And, after the tent ritual, she takes Drogo out under the stars (expressly) to try to revive him. Because their wedding night was under the stars. And when it doesn't work, the stars are gone in her mind. Only darkness, which says "never, never, never."
In Dance, when she thinks of Drogon, she can "almost see him sweeping across the sky, his black wings swallowing the stars. Dance, Dany III"
In Dany, Stars and Dragons seems to be in conflict. Like the AE and the BSE? Or am I misreading your interp of those myths and symbols?
In the AA category we have the flaming sword... duh. The fact that he likes to fight wth another fire associated dude with a flaming sword is a match for my idea of the comet being split in half, just as Ned's Ice was.
Yup. And I am just now wondering about the idea of fire being. . . split. Is it innately fracturing? Dany dreams of dragon fire filling the world with ash. But with steel--fire breaks it in two. . . hmmm. . .
Azor Ahai the undead greenseer may have become loyal to the Starks, or may even have became a Stark. I tend to think resurrected AA might be the NK, while the LH might be his son - but is the LH a "Stark" or a Dayne? Or might it be switched, with the son as the NK? Any way you slice it, the idea of Beric serving both the Starks and dead King Robert, who is a giant and a horned god (horned gods / horned lords = greenseers / green men, IMO, some of whom became the fiery greenseers I am talking about).
I like it. And the idea of the Starks and Daynes perhaps having that "blood"--that magical, but potentially fracturing, blood. Could explain the need to keep them apart. . . . incest might up the magic quotient, but it also makes . . . Joffrey.
Will need to let this percolate some more.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Hey @sly Wren. What caught my eye in your comments is the thing about Beric's standard being below the Stark sigil. Following on your association between Beric and House Dayne, what does that say? It says a fire-associated Dayne with a starry cloak become loyal to the Starks, or even became a Stark, symbolically. This lines up with resurrected Beric sitting in a type of weirwood throne and having one eye, the spitting image of Bloodraven. This is the phenomena I refer to as the fiery greenseers, of which I believe Azor Ahai / the Bloodstone Emperor was the captain. Beric is showing us AA and BSE symbolism (because they are the same person).
In the BSE category we have married to a potentially amethyst eyed person (think Amethyst Empress), starry cloak / starry wisdom (the starry sky is even described like an old cloak one time), and the lord of corpses monicker (BSE said to practice necromancy).
In the AA category we have the flaming sword... duh. The fact that he likes to fight wth another fire associated dude with a flaming sword is a match for my idea of the comet being split in half, just as Ned's Ice was.
Throw in the clear allusion to Bloodraven and we have Azor Ahai the undead greenseer. He may well have left some genes in Westeros. He may have married a Dayne, and his son may have been the Last Hero, who knows.
Azor Ahai the undead greenseer may have become loyal to the Starks, or may even have became a Stark. I tend to think resurrected AA might be the NK, while the LH might be his son - but is the LH a "Stark" or a Dayne? Or might it be switched, with the son as the NK? Any way you slice it, the idea of Beric serving both the Starks and dead King Robert, who is a giant and a horned god (horned gods / horned lords = greenseers / green men, IMO, some of whom became the fiery greenseers I am talking about).
A quick quip...
The world book, fwiw, seems to name the Last Hero "Brandon the Builder."
No, it does not. They may be the same - both sought the cotf - but they are not said to be so. Either way, the Last Hero may well be of House Stark, certainly.
Brandon of the Bloody Blade may be key to this. He's a figure from the Reach who may be an ancestor of Brandon the Builder. The Reach is near Starfall and Oldtown both, so if there's some connection between he Starks and House Dayne or their ancestors from the GEotD, I figure Brandon Bloody Blade is our man.
The books never state that Bran the Builder ever had any contact at all with the cotf... isn't that interesting?
We assume he did, of course, but in all five books it is never stated that Brandon the Builder ever sought them out, or even met one. The man we do hear of setting out to do precisely that, is named only as The Last Hero.
The world book then marries the two, imo, by instead bestowing the Last Hero's journey upon Brandon the Builder. And granted, it is only my opinion. But, it is worth noting that in all of the books Brandon the Builder is never said to have made contact with the cotf, and instead, the man from the age of heroes who made such contact is instead never named, and is called the Last Hero. Unless there is a "House Hero" (which I cannot refute), with a son named "Last," I'm confident that "Last Hero" was not the man's true name. One wonders if it was forbidden. ::: lol
Then the world book comes along and says Brandon the Builder himself sought aid from the cotf in order to halt the advance of the Others... yet... in the books as published, we've only been told of 13 men to have ever attempted such a journey, and all of them died save the last.
Compare:
The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age The giants had no kings and no lords, made no homes save in caverns or beneath tall trees, and they worked neither metal nor fields. They remained creatures of the Dawn Age even as the ages passed them by, men grew ever more numerous, and the forests were tamed and dwindled. Now the giants are gone even in the lands beyond the Wall, and the last reports of them are more than a hundred years old. And even those are dubious—tales that rangers of the Watch might tell over a warm fire. The children of the forest were, in many ways, the opposites of the giants. As small as children but dark and beautiful, they lived in a manner we might call crude today, yet they were still less barbarous than the giants. They worked no metal, but they had great art in working obsidian (what the smallfolk call dragonglass, while the Valyrians knew it by a word meaning "frozen fire") to make tools and weapons for hunting. They wove no cloths but were skilled in making garments of leaves and bark. They learned to make bows of weirwood and to construct flying snares of grass, and both of the sexes hunted with these. Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.
A Game of Thrones - Bran IV Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen. "Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—" [...] "Well," said Yoren, "maybe he will and maybe he won't. Good men have gone into those woods before, and never come out." All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!
The Reach is near Starfall and Oldtown both, so if there's some connection between he Starks and House Dayne or their ancestors from the GEotD, I figure Brandon Bloody Blade is our man.
I'm glad you're starting to see a bridge the two Houses in any case good ser, and definitely agree a "Brandon" built the bridge. :::
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
The books never state that Bran the Builder ever had any contact at all with the cotf... isn't that interesting?
We assume he did, of course, but in all five books it is never stated that Brandon the Builder ever sought them out, or even met one. The man we do hear of setting out to do precisely that, is named only as The Last Hero.
The world book then marries the two, imo, by instead bestowing the Last Hero's journey upon Brandon the Builder. And granted, it is only my opinion. But, it is worth noting that in all of the books Brandon the Builder is never said to have made contact with the cotf, and instead, the man from the age of heroes who made such contact is instead never named, and is called the Last Hero. Unless there is a "House Hero" (which I cannot refute), with a son named "Last," I'm confident that "Last Hero" was not the man's true name. One wonders if it was forbidden. ::: lol
Then the world book comes along and says Brandon the Builder himself sought aid from the cotf in order to halt the advance of the Others... yet... in the books as published, we've only been told of 13 men to have ever attempted such a journey, and all of them died save the last.
Compare:
The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age The giants had no kings and no lords, made no homes save in caverns or beneath tall trees, and they worked neither metal nor fields. They remained creatures of the Dawn Age even as the ages passed them by, men grew ever more numerous, and the forests were tamed and dwindled. Now the giants are gone even in the lands beyond the Wall, and the last reports of them are more than a hundred years old. And even those are dubious—tales that rangers of the Watch might tell over a warm fire. The children of the forest were, in many ways, the opposites of the giants. As small as children but dark and beautiful, they lived in a manner we might call crude today, yet they were still less barbarous than the giants. They worked no metal, but they had great art in working obsidian (what the smallfolk call dragonglass, while the Valyrians knew it by a word meaning "frozen fire") to make tools and weapons for hunting. They wove no cloths but were skilled in making garments of leaves and bark. They learned to make bows of weirwood and to construct flying snares of grass, and both of the sexes hunted with these. Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.
A Game of Thrones - Bran IV Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen. "Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—" [...] "Well," said Yoren, "maybe he will and maybe he won't. Good men have gone into those woods before, and never come out." All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!
The Reach is near Starfall and Oldtown both, so if there's some connection between he Starks and House Dayne or their ancestors from the GEotD, I figure Brandon Bloody Blade is our man.
I'm glad you're starting to see a bridge the two Houses in any case good ser, and definitely agree a "Brandon" built the bridge. :::
Your analysis contradicts he quotes you listed. Bran the Builder sought the cotf to build the Wall - not fight the Others or to get a new sword as the Last Hero did. As I said, there are similarities and they may be the same, but TWOIAF says that Brandon the builder sought the cotf and does not mingle this story with that of the Last Hero. Brandon the Builder's story does not involve fighting the Others or journeying into cold dead lands. Again, these absolutely COULD be the same people - I tend to think they are. But TWOIAF does not say what you claim it says. Again, your analysis does not agree with the text that you quoted.
Your analysis contradicts he quotes you listed. Bran the Builder sought the cotf to build the Wall - not fight the Others or to get a new sword as the Last Hero did. As I said, there are similarities and they may be the same, but TWOIAF says that Brandon the builder sought the cotf and does not mingle this story with that of the Last Hero. Brandon the Builder's story does not involve fighting the Others or journeying into cold dead lands. Again, these absolutely COULD be the same people - I tend to think they are. But TWOIAF does not say what you claim it says. Again, your analysis does not agree with the text that you quoted.
I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one. The Last Hero did not set out for the intent and purpose of gaining a new sword. He set out to win back what the armies of men had lost. And even then, the argument is moot, as the Wall is a sword, as is the NW.
Beyond that, we are told in the five published novels that the Last Hero set out to find the cotf and seek their aid. Naturally, we might associate that journey with the creation of the Wall, as the Wall seems to be a military boundary.
It might be that Brandon the Builder set out to do the same errand, and seek out help from the cotf, but the five published novels never state that. Only the world book does. While I agree the world book keeps their stories separate, this particular accomplishment of BtB's is never described in the novels. The novels never describe BtB making contact with the cotf. The wb's description of BtB's accomplishment instead mirrors the pilgrimage of the Last Hero as described in the novels.
I understand giving some weight to the world book, LmL , but I do hope you agree that nothing trumps the novels. The five novels are cold hard canon. GRRM has said that the world book is "pretty damn close to canon," which is a strong endorsement, but falls just shy of canonizing it. Here's the SSM:
voice, I agree with your reasoning that BtB may be the LH. I am simply saying that your statement itself is wrong, and does not accurately characterize what TWOIAF says. Are you suggesting the detail about BtB learning the language of the cotf is somehow erroneous? It does not contradict the novels, so I see no issues with canon. The association of the LH with BtB is a theory, and a good one, but a theory nontheless.
As for the sword, we are two things about the LH and swords - he set out with one sword, which broke from the cold. Later, we hear of him slaying Others with a sword of dragonsteel. So, he either got a new sword or reforged the old one. The cotf may or may not have had something to do with this - I'm not asserting that they did for sure, for the record.
The idea that the Wall was built to keep out the Others is also a theory. A theory many characters in world subscribe to, but we obviously do not know why or when the Wall was built or by whom. The association wth BtB building the Wall does not mean he has to be the LH.
And none of this really has anything to do with my original comment. Whether BtB was the LH or not, it does not change the ideas I was putting forward.
And I'm definitely not going round and round with you if you're going to do the Heretic thing and pretend that there is not multiple definitions of the word canon. Canon can mean "the authentic works of the author," and since George signed his name as the main author, and since he's signed off on the compiling work done by E&L, there is no questioning of TWOIAF as part of the authentic works of the author, GRRM. Yandel's opinions, however, are not "canonical information" in that it may be inaccurate. Canon can also mean "the facts of the story," meaning the events which we saw happen or have concrete proof of happening. Everything else is subject to the unreliable narrator, whether it is Yandel recalling myths and old history or Cat telling us about Storms End and Durran Godsgrief in AGOT. The information about the BtB seeking out the cotf is Yandel's word, and it's folklore besides - we can't know how true it is. But the fact that E&L helped write the book does not mean that somehow George didn't mean for that to be in there, or that E&L accidentally switched the stories of LH and BtB because they were stoned that day or something. If it's in TWOIAF, George either wrote it or signed off on it, which means the only unrelibilty factor is Yandel's credibility, and that is reflected in Martin's quote above. He mentions Yandel's credibility as the thing which prevents it from being absolute factual canon - he's clearly using the word in the sense of "the true facts of the story." He's very, very obviously not saying that TWOIAF isn't an authentic work of the author - that would be a silly conclusion to draw.
And that's the problem I have some of you Heretics - you only seem to bring up credibility issues when there's something in TWOIAF that contradicts your theory, as Wolfmaid did with the Rhaegar's Lance thing a few months back.