I want to say it was in a world book errors/typos thread.
This?
Not an error. Primogeniture is customary, but not binding... especially not to a king. We have other examples of people being passed over, or potentially passed over, for others.
Maester Yandel is merely reporting based on historical records on events of the time.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I want to say it was in a world book errors/typos thread.
This?
Not an error. Primogeniture is customary, but not binding... especially not to a king. We have other examples of people being passed over, or potentially passed over, for others.
Maester Yandel is merely reporting based on historical records on events of the time.
Side note on Targs - They're a completely different race like the Ibbenese.
According to Yandel, the Ibbenese men can father children upon the women of other races, but products of these unions are often malformed and inevitably sterile, like mules. Ibbenese women, when mated with men of other races, bring forth only stillbirths and monstrosities
Consider the breeding of Ibbenese described by Yandel and the reoccurrence of Targ mom's dying in childbirth, stillborns and miscarriages.
Whilst i will agree with you that the Targ are a different race, after all they seem to have a special gift shall we say, i think the comparison with the Ibbenese is a bit stretched. Please check these two characters: Brown Ben Plumm and Casso Mogat, which you can do here, paragraph 9b.
One think that i found GRRM likes to indulge in is denouncing superstition; the more I look into particular people, races shall we say, the more I find that he tells us one thing about them via various characters, maesters records etc and then tells us something else via other characters with a more neutral point of view (the wildlings being an example). The whole story is soaked in superstition and i would not be surprised if this is because it is one of his pet dislike.
Coming back to the Targ, i suggest their inbreeding is one cause for their breeding problems, GRRM having most likely drawn from the Accursed Kings, one of his favourite books. I have read somewhere that the Citadel can also be suspected for these problems, but that is only threadsay (as in hear say).
Last Edit: Jul 14, 2016 10:03:18 GMT by arrysfleas
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Whilst i will agree with you that the Targ are a different race, after all they seem to have a special gift shall we say, i think the comparison with the Ibbenese is a bit stretched.
I'll check out the link, thanks! I don't wanna derail this thread but I'll just quickly say...I guess I should say that Valyrians are a different race with Targs being a Valyrian family. I don't think it's that far off when you think about the issues with non-Valyrians birthing Targs, but it's not every single case either. There's also the distinct physical characteristics that are evident in the two races just that the Targs are better looking. IMO the only reason the Targs in-breed is bc of the lack of other Valyrian families. At some point they got it backwards and turn to Lys & House Velaryon when they don't have another Targ that can be married.
Threadsay - I like that.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
IMO the only reason the Targs in-breed is bc of the lack of other Valyrian families.
this is a very good point.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Post by DarkSister1001 on Jul 15, 2016 15:13:21 GMT
voice I've been all over various websites reading into the presence of the KG at the ToJ and have found nothing reasonable other than Jon is the heir. Most of the posts I read are several years old so I'll start a new thread here and see what peeps are thinking these days.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
“M’lord Varys complimented Chella on her ears and said she must have killed many men to have such a fine necklace,” Shae explained. It grated on him to hear her call Varys m’lord in that tone; that was what she called him in their pillow play. “And Chella told him only cowards kill the vanquished.” “Braver to leave the man alive, with a chance to cleanse his shame by winning back his ear,” explained Chella, a small dark woman whose grisly neckware was hung with no less than forty-six dried, wrinkled ears. Tyrion had counted them once. “Only so can you prove you do not fear your enemies.” Shae hooted. “And then m’lord says if he was a Black Ear he’d never sleep, for dreams of one-eared men.”
I'm just going to put this quote here for you voice...
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
“And Chella told him only cowards kill the vanquished.”
Word.
Which makes me wonder, was Ned a coward?
A Game of Thrones - Bran I
Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" "That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him. "Do you understand why I did it?" "He was a wildling," Bran said. "They carry off women and sell them to the Others." His lord father smiled. "Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it." Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly. "He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.
markg171 pointed out for me in the Vows thread that Ned was actually troubled by what Gared told him (i'll dig up the quote when I have more time). Thus, I think Ned killed Gared out of, in part at least, cowardice at his words.
It would have been braver to spare Gared's life, and to take his words (which were most likely regarding exactly what Bran first said above -- the Others). Did Ned kill Arthur because he too spoke troubling words?
“Braver to leave the man alive, with a chance to cleanse his shame by winning back his ear,”
Indeed. As Arthur left Ned, very much alive.
I think the proto-Dayne that was the first SotM spared the Builder that was the proto-Stark, disarmed him, claimed Dawn, and exiled the fallen magnar to retreat with the darkness. He was the lightbringer, and bore the sword of heroes because he spared his foe.
Had he slain the Night's King, Dawn would have melted.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
markg171 pointed out for me in the Vows thread that Ned was actually troubled by what Gared told him (i'll dig up the quote when I have more time). Thus, I think Ned killed Gared out of, in part at least, cowardice at his words.
These are not the quotes I was looking for...I think it was from a Theon chapter. But I'll start adding them as I find the pieces:
A Clash of Kings - Jon III "I've not seen Benjen Stark for three years," he was telling Mormont. "And if truth be told, I never once missed him." A half-dozen black puppies and the odd pig or two skulked among the benches, while women in ragged deerskins passed horns of beer, stirred the fire, and chopped carrots and onions into a kettle. "He ought to have passed here last year," said Thoren Smallwood. A dog came sniffing round his leg. He kicked it and sent it off yipping. Lord Mormont said, "Ben was searching for Ser Waymar Royce, who'd vanished with Gared and young Will." "Aye, those three I recall. The lordling no older than one of these pups. Too proud to sleep under my roof, him in his sable cloak and black steel. My wives give him big cow eyes all the same." He turned his squint on the nearest of the women. "Gared says they were chasing raiders. I told him, with a commander that green, best not catch 'em. Gared wasn't half-bad, for a crow. Had less ears than me, that one. The 'bite took 'em, same as mine." Craster laughed. "Now I hear he got no head neither. The 'bite do that too?" Jon remembered a spray of red blood on white snow, and the way Theon Greyjoy had kicked the dead man's head. The man was a deserter. On the way back to Winterfell, Jon and Robb had raced, and found six direwolf pups in the snow. A thousand years ago. "When Ser Waymar left you, where was he bound?" Craster gave a shrug. "Happens I have better things to do than tend to the comings and goings of crows." He drank a pull of beer and set the cup aside. "Had no good southron wine up here for a bear's night. I could use me some wine, and a new axe. Mine's lost its bite, can't have that, I got me women to protect." He gazed around at his scurrying wives.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Thus, I think Ned killed Gared out of, in part at least, cowardice at his words.
I can't agree with that. Gared was a dead man the second he went south with the intention of deserting. The Wall at this point is a glorified prison with what must be close to a majority of it's defenders being convicted felons. The only thing keeping them at The Wall is the very real threat that any Lord that catches them deserting will execute them on the spot. As Warden of the North, Ned Stark has to fulfill that duty, it doesn't matter what Gared had told him. If Gared had told him that the Wildlings were over the wall and about to attack Winterfell then I still think Ned would have executed him. This is about maintaining the only threat that keeps 500 hardened killers and rapists from running wild in the north.
One thing that occurs to me as I write this is that Ned took Gared's head with Ice. Lowborn usually get the rope with beheadings reserved for the highborn. How significant do we think that is ? Is that just Ned being Ned and showing respect to a Night's Watchman ? Or is it a callback to sacrifices that may have been performed in days past, sacrifices that would require the physical spilling of blood ?
Thus, I think Ned killed Gared out of, in part at least, cowardice at his words.
I can't agree with that. Gared was a dead man the second he went south with the intention of deserting. The Wall at this point is a glorified prison with what must be close to a majority of it's defenders being convicted felons. The only thing keeping them at The Wall is the very real threat that any Lord that catches them deserting will execute them on the spot. As Warden of the North, Ned Stark has to fulfill that duty, it doesn't matter what Gared had told him. If Gared had told him that the Wildlings were over the wall and about to attack Winterfell then I still think Ned would have executed him. This is about maintaining the only threat that keeps 500 hardened killers and rapists from running wild in the north.
One thing that occurs to me as I write this is that Ned took Gared's head with Ice. Lowborn usually get the rope with beheadings reserved for the highborn. How significant do we think that is ? Is that just Ned being Ned and showing respect to a Night's Watchman ? Or is it a callback to sacrifices that may have been performed in days past, sacrifices that would require the physical spilling of blood ?
I think you have the right idea about Ned here. He follows formulas, without really knowing why. Thus a man who deserts is slain (why?) And the man who passes sentence, swings the sword (Ned does say, so you don't forget what death is). Perhaps he has forgotten that feeding the trees is part of his covenant? I'm guessing (It was meant for Brandon) that he never knew.
I think you have the right idea about Ned here. He follows formulas, without really knowing why. Thus a man who deserts is slain (why?) And the man who passes sentence, swings the sword (Ned does say, so you don't forget what death is). Perhaps he has forgotten that feeding the trees is part of his covenant? I'm guessing (It was meant for Brandon) that he never knew.
The idea that certain "truths" are imparted to the head (or heir) to House Stark is a compelling one but I think that Ned's ignorance (if we want to call it that) is more a symptom of a general disconnect from the past that the people of Westeros have experienced, a disconnect that is due in no small part to the arrival of dragons to the continent. You questioned why a deserter is slain and I'm not sure if you're actually questioning it or illustrating Ned's ignorance but I'll explain why I think deserters are killed just in case. In modern times it is as I stated in my original post, the NW is a glorified prison and order must be maintained. Now how that "tradition" came into being is a little more interesting. The men of the watch are dead the second they become men of the watch. Their lives are forfeit and become a de facto blood sacrifice that powers the non-physical barriers that (apparently) exist in the wall. The brothers of the NW talk about how the cold creeps into you until you can't even remember what it was like to be warm. The wall, in a very real way, sucks the life out of them. This sacrifice is only valid if the brother takes their oaths before a heart tree (literally being sacrificed to the weirwoods) so the wall right now must be running on fumes. Now if a brother leaves the physical confines of the wall (with the intention of not coming back) then the oath is broken and they have to be sacrificed immediately. Bronze sickle, throat slit, yada yada. How did this set-up come to be you ask? Well imagine you had a magic barrier that is powered by blood sacrifice. It could conceivably become extremely resource draining to continually have to sacrifice people to keep the lights on at the Nightfort but by happy coincidence, ice preserves the dead and stops it from decomposing. Now as I said, the brothers are dead the minute they take their oaths but the wall preserves them so that the sacrifice can be made slowly. The magic still gets it's sacrifice and the north doesn't run out of dudes. As i'm writing this it occurs to me that it's not the blood that's important, it's not even the death that's important. It's the sacrifice itself. You have to give yourself willingly to it (it's the belief element of power we've been discussing in another thread). Man if that's true, generations of criminals have been sent to that wall against their will and have been taking their oaths in a frigging Sept!! How is that thing still standing?!?! A freaking light breeze should take it down at this point. Anyway that went on way longer than I intended. Discuss !!!
It's the sacrifice itself. You have to give yourself willingly to it (it's the belief element of power we've been discussing in another thread). Man if that's true, generations of criminals have been sent to that wall against their will and have been taking their oaths in a frigging Sept!! How is that thing still standing?!?! A freaking light breeze should take it down at this point.
if it is the sacrifice that counts, it should not matter were the vows are taken, weirwood grove, Sept or Moles Town, should it?
the wall is probably still standing cos the giants have not yet been woken; one decent earthquake should bring it down.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
if it is the sacrifice that counts, it should not matter were the vows are taken, weirwood grove, Sept or Moles Town, should it?
I totally started thinking about that on the bus about an hour ago. Yes, from what I wrote that would be the logical conclusion. It doesn't matter where the vows are said as long as they are said with (at the very least) a true belief that you are a dead man for breaking them. Even then that's murky isn't it ? Nowhere in the vows does it actually say that a man's life is forfeit should he break them. Anyway to the original point, you are correct, the first part of what I posted contradicts the second to a degree but I'm pretty sure that there is something decent in there, NW brothers sentenced to suspended blood sacrifice is something I'm pretty strong on.