Almost forgot another reason why Ice couldn't be at the ToJ. If Ice had crossed swords with Dawn wouldn't the world have ended or something ? Voice ? Where are you Voice ?
My God! What an idea you put up there: Dawn vs Ice. This is tremendous. Did Ned not have Ice back then?! Oh shit, I need to read AGoT again
EDIT: Clearly I have only started reading this thread. So sorry for bumping a post question that more than likely got an answer in the 8 pages I see the thread has.
I can't agree with that. Gared was a dead man the second he went south with the intention of deserting. The Wall at this point is a glorified prison with what must be close to a majority of it's defenders being convicted felons. The only thing keeping them at The Wall is the very real threat that any Lord that catches them deserting will execute them on the spot.
As Warden of the North, Ned Stark has to fulfill that duty, it doesn't matter what Gared had told him.
Here, we disagree. As Warden of the North, it should matter all the more to Ned what Gared has to say.
Forgive me while I go oldschool. LOL
Ned Wards the North, and at that very moment, a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch is captive before him.
What is Gared doing, if not his duty?
Did Gared run to Eastwatch and solicit a ship to carry him across the Narrow Sea?
Is he hiding out with a ragtag band of wildlings and oathbreakers?
Nope.
Gared watched. As he was sworn to do. Then he went, like a horn, to wake the sleeping Starks of Winterfell.
If Gared had instead gone to Jeor Mormont, he might have risked a furrowed brow and some mockery, but he would not have risked his life.
And this was no mere desertion, you seem to be forgetting the reactions of the wolves.
Ned feels the need to justify the execution to Bran, who had been staring at the man's eyes. And how does Ned justify the execution? By telling his son that the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter, and that as such, he knows his life is forfeit and will not flinch from any crime...no matter how vile.
Yet Gared did no vile acts, at least, none that we know about. Instead, Gared was taken outside a small holdfast in the hills near Winterfell. Let's think about that...
Would a small holdfast be equipped with knights? Or even a master at arms?
When I hear a small holdfast, I picture a small, ringed keep like the Fist, but with a gate. This one has a gate at least. It isn't a castle. It isn't a fortress.
And Gared is an old, scrawny man. Not Bronn. And was likely taken by farmers. I can't say for sure of course, but I do think it is fair to say that Gared was not in a fit state to pose any real threat. Particularly so close to Winterfell.
Thus, Ned feels the need to justify to Bran why he had just beheaded an old, scrawny, and not very tall, man.
Ned's pups react differently:
Robb thinks the man died bravely.
Jon thinks the man was already dead of fear.
Bran is puzzled by the man's eyes.
Then rather than dismiss any of his pups' reactions, Ned validates them all.
Gared was puzzling, but was brave at the time of his execution because he was afraid.
Why was Gared afraid? Why was this execution so puzzling?
Questions were asked and answers were given, but Bran is no help on the exchange of course. There is another quote which provides more detail but I haven't been able to find it. Very frustrating. I believe it's in a Theon chapter, but it might be a Jon.
Gared spoke troubling words. That much I remember from it. Ned in the next chapter (Cat I) says that something had put a madness in Gared and that his words were unable to reach him.
Ned, like an oldschool Stark, heard the man's words and swung the sword himself. Yet, he was troubled by it.
It is my belief that Gared, unlike Stiv (not flinching from vile crimes) or Dareon (singing across the Narrow Sea), sought out the Warden of the North to tell him that the Others have returned.
Ned was troubled by a mad man. Jon only saw a dead man. Robb saw a brave man. Bran was puzzled.
All were correct. Even Ned saw that, which is saying something as Ned is not the most observant person in the novels.
If Gared had told him that the Wildlings were over the wall and about to attack Winterfell then I still think Ned would have executed him. This is about maintaining the only threat that keeps 500 hardened killers and rapists from running wild in the north.
Certainly. All true.
But what this neglects, is that unlike the execution of a killer or a rapist, this execution troubled Ned. It also troubled Bran, but that might have been because he was only seven. I think not, as Bran is not like other seven year olds, but that would be a reasonable argument for someone to make. It also troubled Catelyn, but that might be because literally everything troubles Catelyn. LOL
Anyway, back to my point... While the Night's Watch has become Westeros' largest prison, it wasn't always that way. Gared's act speaks to the true purpose of the Night's Watch. He did not flee. He woke the sleepers to warn the Starks of Other things.
(Part of me really wants to start talking about why this is important, and might haunt Ned, but I don't want to get too side-tracked...)
But wait a minute! This is How Ice became Dawn! It has everything to do with that... as you have yourself just realized:
One thing that occurs to me as I write this is that Ned took Gared's head with Ice. Lowborn usually get the rope with beheadings reserved for the highborn. How significant do we think that is ? Is that just Ned being Ned and showing respect to a Night's Watchman ? Or is it a callback to sacrifices that may have been performed in days past, sacrifices that would require the physical spilling of blood ?
Yup. The lowborn typically get the rope. While it is only a small holdfast, I'm sure they have rope. Why didn't they hang Gared?
Why did they feel the need to wake Lord Eddard Stark, the Warden of the North?
I'll tell you why. Gared's report was above their paygrade. It was above their security clearance.
One does not simply summon Eddard Stark to leave Winterfell. Book-Cat is a total MILF. You don't interrupt that. LOL I mean, someone needs to make more little entitled lordlings.
But yes. Rather than grab the rope (hell, it the noose was probably still hanging there from the last deserter), something about Gared made them decide to summon their lord. We've seen what that looks like, a raven in the night.
A raven. Sent to Lord Eddard of the House Stark, Warden of the North, for an old scrawny man not much taller than Robb...
Now that I've beaten that point to death, LOL, let me return to the Ice=Dawn stuff. Ned is a King of Winter Pretender, and carries a fancy sword that seeks to compensate for the one his forebearers held in the Age of Heroes. It is of course, named Ice, as was the original.
As I pointed out above, the last time an execution troubled Ned was that of Arthur Dayne. It troubled Ned when he bested the Sword of the Morning thanks to Howland Reed, and gained Dawn. It troubled him enough to return Dawn to its resting place.
Now, Ned is again troubled. Something was not right about the execution of Gared. Or, something was at least different. Will described an edge to the darkness that made his hackles rise. And Gared, well, Gared likely brought a report of that edge. This is all Long Night 2.0, Battle for the Dawn kind of shit. Oldschool. Ned has just killed the messenger, a black crow that flew directly to him from the Wall... as they were meant to fly, and have alway flown, imo, to the Stark in Winterfell.
Which brings me to two of my favorite pet theories.
1. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, because without one, who would be warned of the Others? What would be the purpose of the Night's Watch? Gared went to the one and only place where his words would be given weight, and the one place where he was meant to go, where Winter fell.
2. The third shadow in Bran's coma vision is Ser Ilyn Payne. Ice was sheathed until Ned beheaded Gared. Ice was sheathed again until Ilyn Payne beheaded Ned. Ned's beheading loomed over him ever since he beheaded Gared. And sure enough, Ned becomes Gared thereafter -- seeking a King's favor in the south and attempting to warn him from unseen danger.
Gared woke the sleepers and told Eddard of the House Stark that winter is coming, and Ned, acting as the King's Justice, killed Gared for doing it.
It's the sacrifice itself. You have to give yourself willingly to it (it's the belief element of power we've been discussing in another thread). Man if that's true, generations of criminals have been sent to that wall against their will and have been taking their oaths in a frigging Sept!! How is that thing still standing?!?! A freaking light breeze should take it down at this point.
if it is the sacrifice that counts, it should not matter were the vows are taken, weirwood grove, Sept or Moles Town, should it?
the wall is probably still standing cos the giants have not yet been woken; one decent earthquake should bring it down.
if it is the sacrifice that counts, it should not matter were the vows are taken, weirwood grove, Sept or Moles Town, should it?
I totally started thinking about that on the bus about an hour ago. Yes, from what I wrote that would be the logical conclusion. It doesn't matter where the vows are said as long as they are said with (at the very least) a true belief that you are a dead man for breaking them. Even then that's murky isn't it ? Nowhere in the vows does it actually say that a man's life is forfeit should he break them. Anyway to the original point, you are correct, the first part of what I posted contradicts the second to a degree but I'm pretty sure that there is something decent in there, NW brothers sentenced to suspended blood sacrifice is something I'm pretty strong on.
The idea that certain "truths" are imparted to the head (or heir) to House Stark is a compelling one but I think that Ned's ignorance (if we want to call it that) is more a symptom of a general disconnect from the past that the people of Westeros have experienced, a disconnect that is due in no small part to the arrival of dragons to the continent. You questioned why a deserter is slain and I'm not sure if you're actually questioning it or illustrating Ned's ignorance but I'll explain why I think deserters are killed just in case. In modern times it is as I stated in my original post, the NW is a glorified prison and order must be maintained. Now how that "tradition" came into being is a little more interesting. The men of the watch are dead the second they become men of the watch. Their lives are forfeit and become a de facto blood sacrifice that powers the non-physical barriers that (apparently) exist in the wall. The brothers of the NW talk about how the cold creeps into you until you can't even remember what it was like to be warm. The wall, in a very real way, sucks the life out of them. This sacrifice is only valid if the brother takes their oaths before a heart tree (literally being sacrificed to the weirwoods) so the wall right now must be running on fumes. Now if a brother leaves the physical confines of the wall (with the intention of not coming back) then the oath is broken and they have to be sacrificed immediately. Bronze sickle, throat slit, yada yada. How did this set-up come to be you ask? Well imagine you had a magic barrier that is powered by blood sacrifice. It could conceivably become extremely resource draining to continually have to sacrifice people to keep the lights on at the Nightfort but by happy coincidence, ice preserves the dead and stops it from decomposing. Now as I said, the brothers are dead the minute they take their oaths but the wall preserves them so that the sacrifice can be made slowly. The magic still gets it's sacrifice and the north doesn't run out of dudes. As i'm writing this it occurs to me that it's not the blood that's important, it's not even the death that's important. It's the sacrifice itself. You have to give yourself willingly to it (it's the belief element of power we've been discussing in another thread). Man if that's true, generations of criminals have been sent to that wall against their will and have been taking their oaths in a frigging Sept!! How is that thing still standing?!?! A freaking light breeze should take it down at this point. Anyway that went on way longer than I intended. Discuss !!!
I totally started thinking about that on the bus about an hour ago. Yes, from what I wrote that would be the logical conclusion. It doesn't matter where the vows are said as long as they are said with (at the very least) a true belief that you are a dead man for breaking them. Even then that's murky isn't it ? Nowhere in the vows does it actually say that a man's life is forfeit should he break them. Anyway to the original point, you are correct, the first part of what I posted contradicts the second to a degree but I'm pretty sure that there is something decent in there, NW brothers sentenced to suspended blood sacrifice is something I'm pretty strong on.
I quoted them kinda funny, LOL, but would you guys mind if I moved these posts to the Vows of the Night's Watch thread? Maybe I can just copy them... they are relevant to both.
Also, pieceofgosa, I keep hoping that you will post your Oath of Blood theory over here.
Now, to respond to your awesome convo, I will just say that Old Nan predicted the weakness of the Wall, in her parable for Bran:
Bran found himself remembering the tales Old Nan had told him when he was a babe. Beyond the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk, she would say, tucking him in beneath his scratchy woolen blanket, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night's Watch are true. So go to sleep, my little Brandon, my baby boy, and dream sweet dreams. There are no monsters here. The ranger wore the black of the Night's Watch, but what if he was not a man at all? What if he was some monster, taking them to the other monsters to be devoured?
GQA made certain, imo, that the Wall & Watch would weaken over the last 200 years.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
He could not see the smile. Hard as he tried, he could not see it. He found himself thinking of the deserter his father had beheaded the day they'd found the direwolves. "You said the words," Lord Eddard had told him. "You took a vow, before your brothers, before the old gods and the new." Desmond and Fat Tom had dragged the man to the stump. Bran's eyes had been wide as saucers, and Jon had to remind him to keep his pony in hand. He remembered the look on Father's face when Theon Greyjoy brought forth Ice, the spray of blood on the snow, the way Theon had kicked the head when it came rolling at his feet.
Cause I know I've pointed out this passage before, possibly to you or someone else.
Regardless if this was the passage or not, I still find it an interesting passage as Jon remembers what Bran simply skimmed over in his own POV of that day
There were questions asked and answers given there in the chill of morning, but afterward Bran could not recall much of what had been said. Finally his lord father gave a command, and two of his guardsmen dragged the ragged man to the ironwood stump in the center of the square. They forced his head down onto the hard black wood. Lord Eddard Stark dismounted and his ward Theon Greyjoy brought forth the sword. "Ice," that sword was called. It was as wide across as a man's hand, and taller even than Robb. The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Whereas Bran doesn't remember what Eddard and Gared talked about that morning, Jon himself recalls it later on in AGOT when he tries to desert the Watch as well. Mainly, that Eddard tried to remind Gared that he'd taken a vow and that he was in dereliction of that vow. But more importantly to me, it's always also almost read as if Ned might be trying to get Gared to agree to go back to the Wall, to remind him of the vows he took and is supposed to be upholding. That his first choice wasn't actually to kill Gared, but to try and get him to go back to his post.
Cause I mean, when Cat and Ned talk about the beheading afterwords Ned is extremely troubled that Gared's the fourth deserter this year and the Watch can't maintain these losses anymore, but more specifically that Gared was too afraid to even listen to Ned's words
"He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well."
What words could Ned have even been trying to get across if he was only simply there that day to kill a deserter? Seems much more likely, from both this and the Jon quote, that Ned rode to that holdfast that day to try and get Gared to go back to his post. And that only after Gared refused did Ned finally sentence him to death.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Ned was troubled by a mad man. Jon only saw a dead man. Robb saw a brave man. Bran was puzzled.
All were correct. Even Ned saw that, which is saying something as Ned is not the most observant person in the novels.
I must say that when I read your comment I thought how well you put it. In reality Martin expressed in different characters a composite of feelings that together are the real version of what Gereth has inspired in us as the only ones fully aware of the facts. Of what really transpired North of the wall.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
The HotU was very similar, but I'm thinking Winterfell's crypts themselves are another such sanctum of knowledge, and that they lead to the roots of Winterfell's heart tree.
i like the reference to 'a sanctum of knowledge'; there is also a Temple of Memory in Qarth.
Talking about 'true magnars of winter coming', isn't it interesting that the spells in the Wall, duly noticed by Melisandre, prevent the green (skingchanging) magic from passing through, but did not prevent 2 wights from going on with their business?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
I must say that when I read your comment I thought how well you put it. In reality Martin expressed in different characters a composite of feelings that together are the real version of what Gereth has inspired in us as the only ones fully aware of the facts. Of what really transpired North of the wall.
Precisely. And unlike other POV-mosaics, GRRM superglued this one into place for us...
So deep in thought was he that he never heard the rest of the party until his father moved up to ride beside him. “Are you well, Bran?” he asked, not unkindly.
“Yes, Father,” Bran told him. He looked up. Wrapped in his furs and leathers, mounted on his great warhorse, his lord father loomed over him like a giant. “Robb says the man died bravely, but Jon says he was afraid.”
“What do you think?” his father asked.
Bran thought about it. “Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid?”
“That is the only time a man can be brave,” his father told him. “Do you understand why I did it?”
I can't help but think that Ned is talking about himself, as much as he is talking about Gared, when speaking about the only time a man can be brave.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Talking about 'true magnars of winter coming', isn't it interesting that the spells in the Wall, duly noticed by Melisandre, prevent the green (skingchanging) magic from passing through, but did not prevent 2 wights from going on with their business?
Oh yes... Further evidence that Bran the Builder had become a double agent. when he began working with ice and making a new substance with it.
The Wall blocks Wargs-specifically... we felt Summer's frustration at the man-rock walls surrounding Winterfell's godswood... and Jon dreams of foemen scuttling up the ice like spiders...
The Others leave no tracks upon the snow, and slide forward on silent feet. The Nightfort has no switchback stair... instead, it has slippery steps hewn from the ice itself.
Symeon Star-Eyes... Serwyn of the Mirror Shield (reflective armor)... Othor and Jafer... they teach us that the Wall, if anything, amplifies the blue powers rather than stops them.
"Mayhaps-Brandon" built the Wall to stop Wargs, not the half-forgotten demons out of legend.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
"Mayhaps-Brandon" built the Wall to stop Wargs, not the half-forgotten demons out of legend.
yes, i think so too.
I think there is something to be said about Stannis & Mel and Jon & Tormund, and the Night's King & his corpse queen and Brandon the Breaker & Joramun. Throw in the Nightfort and the Wall spells and you have just about the whole cast.
Is this better discussed in another post? like Dawn/Ice?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
I think there is something to be said about Stannis & Mel and Jon & Tormund, and the Night's King & his corpse queen and Brandon the Breaker & Joramun. Throw in the Nightfort and the Wall spells and you have just about the whole cast.
Indeed. When men ignore the misdeeds of history, they are doomed to repeat them.
Indeed. When men ignore the misdeeds of history, they are doomed to repeat them
yes indeed and at the same time, we are told in the story that life goes in repeating cycles and sometimes it is the only clues we get.
A Feast for Crows - The Kraken's Daughter He studied her, frowning. "Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again, he said.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
I can't agree with that. Gared was a dead man the second he went south with the intention of deserting. The Wall at this point is a glorified prison with what must be close to a majority of it's defenders being convicted felons. The only thing keeping them at The Wall is the very real threat that any Lord that catches them deserting will execute them on the spot.
As Warden of the North, Ned Stark has to fulfill that duty, it doesn't matter what Gared had told him.
Here, we disagree. As Warden of the North, it should matter all the more to Ned what Gared has to say.
Forgive me while I go oldschool. LOL
Ned Wards the North, and at that very moment, a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch is captive before him.
What is Gared doing, if not his duty?
Did Gared run to Eastwatch and solicit a ship to carry him across the Narrow Sea?
Is he hiding out with a ragtag band of wildlings and oathbreakers?
Nope.
Gared watched. As he was sworn to do. Then he went, like a horn, to wake the sleeping Starks of Winterfell.
If Gared had instead gone to Jeor Mormont, he might have risked a furrowed brow and some mockery, but he would not have risked his life.
And this was no mere desertion, you seem to be forgetting the reactions of the wolves.
Ned feels the need to justify the execution to Bran, who had been staring at the man's eyes. And how does Ned justify the execution? By telling his son that the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter, and that as such, he knows his life is forfeit and will not flinch from any crime...no matter how vile.
Yet Gared did no vile acts, at least, none that we know about. Instead, Gared was taken outside a small holdfast in the hills near Winterfell. Let's think about that...
Would a small holdfast be equipped with knights? Or even a master at arms?
When I hear a small holdfast, I picture a small, ringed keep like the Fist, but with a gate. This one has a gate at least. It isn't a castle. It isn't a fortress.
And Gared is an old, scrawny man. Not Bronn. And was likely taken by farmers. I can't say for sure of course, but I do think it is fair to say that Gared was not in a fit state to pose any real threat. Particularly so close to Winterfell.
Thus, Ned feels the need to justify to Bran why he had just beheaded an old, scrawny, and not very tall, man.
Ned's pups react differently:
Robb thinks the man died bravely.
Jon thinks the man was already dead of fear.
Bran is puzzled by the man's eyes.
Then rather than dismiss any of his pups' reactions, Ned validates them all.
Gared was puzzling, but was brave at the time of his execution because he was afraid.
Why was Gared afraid? Why was this execution so puzzling?
Questions were asked and answers were given, but Bran is no help on the exchange of course. There is another quote which provides more detail but I haven't been able to find it. Very frustrating. I believe it's in a Theon chapter, but it might be a Jon.
Gared spoke troubling words. That much I remember from it. Ned in the next chapter (Cat I) says that something had put a madness in Gared and that his words were unable to reach him.
Ned, like an oldschool Stark, heard the man's words and swung the sword himself. Yet, he was troubled by it.
It is my belief that Gared, unlike Stiv (not flinching from vile crimes) or Dareon (singing across the Narrow Sea), sought out the Warden of the North to tell him that the Others have returned.
Ned was troubled by a mad man. Jon only saw a dead man. Robb saw a brave man. Bran was puzzled.
All were correct. Even Ned saw that, which is saying something as Ned is not the most observant person in the novels.
If Gared had told him that the Wildlings were over the wall and about to attack Winterfell then I still think Ned would have executed him. This is about maintaining the only threat that keeps 500 hardened killers and rapists from running wild in the north.
Certainly. All true.
But what this neglects, is that unlike the execution of a killer or a rapist, this execution troubled Ned. It also troubled Bran, but that might have been because he was only seven. I think not, as Bran is not like other seven year olds, but that would be a reasonable argument for someone to make. It also troubled Catelyn, but that might be because literally everything troubles Catelyn. LOL
Anyway, back to my point... While the Night's Watch has become Westeros' largest prison, it wasn't always that way. Gared's act speaks to the true purpose of the Night's Watch. He did not flee. He woke the sleepers to warn the Starks of Other things.
(Part of me really wants to start talking about why this is important, and might haunt Ned, but I don't want to get too side-tracked...)
But wait a minute! This is How Ice became Dawn! It has everything to do with that... as you have yourself just realized:
One thing that occurs to me as I write this is that Ned took Gared's head with Ice. Lowborn usually get the rope with beheadings reserved for the highborn. How significant do we think that is ? Is that just Ned being Ned and showing respect to a Night's Watchman ? Or is it a callback to sacrifices that may have been performed in days past, sacrifices that would require the physical spilling of blood ?
Yup. The lowborn typically get the rope. While it is only a small holdfast, I'm sure they have rope. Why didn't they hang Gared?
Why did they feel the need to wake Lord Eddard Stark, the Warden of the North?
I'll tell you why. Gared's report was above their paygrade. It was above their security clearance.
One does not simply summon Eddard Stark to leave Winterfell. Book-Cat is a total MILF. You don't interrupt that. LOL I mean, someone needs to make more little entitled lordlings.
But yes. Rather than grab the rope (hell, it the noose was probably still hanging there from the last deserter), something about Gared made them decide to summon their lord. We've seen what that looks like, a raven in the night.
A raven. Sent to Lord Eddard of the House Stark, Warden of the North, for an old scrawny man not much taller than Robb...
Now that I've beaten that point to death, LOL, let me return to the Ice=Dawn stuff. Ned is a King of Winter Pretender, and carries a fancy sword that seeks to compensate for the one his forebearers held in the Age of Heroes. It is of course, named Ice, as was the original.
As I pointed out above, the last time an execution troubled Ned was that of Arthur Dayne. It troubled Ned when he bested the Sword of the Morning thanks to Howland Reed, and gained Dawn. It troubled him enough to return Dawn to its resting place.
Now, Ned is again troubled. Something was not right about the execution of Gared. Or, something was at least different. Will described an edge to the darkness that made his hackles rise. And Gared, well, Gared likely brought a report of that edge. This is all Long Night 2.0, Battle for the Dawn kind of shit. Oldschool. Ned has just killed the messenger, a black crow that flew directly to him from the Wall... as they were meant to fly, and have alway flown, imo, to the Stark in Winterfell.
Which brings me to two of my favorite pet theories.
1. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, because without one, who would be warned of the Others? What would be the purpose of the Night's Watch? Gared went to the one and only place where his words would be given weight, and the one place where he was meant to go, where Winter fell.
2. The third shadow in Bran's coma vision is Ser Ilyn Payne. Ice was sheathed until Ned beheaded Gared. Ice was sheathed again until Ilyn Payne beheaded Ned. Ned's beheading loomed over him ever since he beheaded Gared. And sure enough, Ned becomes Gared thereafter -- seeking a King's favor in the south and attempting to warn him from unseen danger.
Gared woke the sleepers and told Eddard of the House Stark that winter is coming, and Ned, acting as the King's Justice, killed Gared for doing it.
I can turn any conversation into Dawn and Ice Spiders
Let me see if I can turn your (collective) attention to the Nightfort which may well have seen both dawn and spiders...
The Nightfort's 'kitchen' is a domed octagon. A pretty rare type of building in Westeros, let alone one 8000 years old.
Domed structures are found in Qarth, the Pureborn's Hall of a Thousand Thrones, in Valyrian constructions such as the Dragonpit in KL, in Rhoynish ones such as the Tower of the Sun in Sunspear, in Volantis, Braavos and other places in Essos.
Definitely an Essos influence.
As far as octagons go, Winterfell's outer walls has octagonal towers and Harlaw's Book Toweris octagonal.
This does not say much except throwing a link to Winterfell and a link to a learned lord in the Iron Islands.
The Nightfort has lots of vaults and cellars inhabited by lots of rats:
There were a lot of dark doors in the Nightfort, and a lot of rats. Bran could hear them scurrying through the vaults and cellars, and the maze of pitch-black tunnels that connected them. (Storm Bran 4)
How do these rats survive? Rats only live where there is food. There has to be a food supply to sustain them, somehow.
The Black Gate:
A Storm of Swords - Bran IV
It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.
A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touchanything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right beforeit. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that. The door opened its eyes. They were white too, and blind.
The well leading to the Black Gate evokes a sinkhole; Leaf's cave also has a sinkhole access.
The well goes deep underground and must lead into a cave system which must exit somewhere beyond the Wall. And of course Martin/Bran did not bother to elaborate on this point.
The weirwood gate has a face carved in it. Its eyes are white, not red, because there is no sap. It is carved into a weirwood root.
The twisted skinny weirwood growing through the kitchen floor must be a shoot from the remnants of that weirwood; it must be recent, perhaps only started growing when the gate was used to let the direwolf mum through or when the NW left the castle.
As Bran said 'it looks dead' … but it is not dead.
This makes me think that the Nightfort was was built on top of the cave system, the weirwood(s) that was at ground level having been cut down. Whoever did that were not on the side of green magic.
Where does the Essosi influence found in the ancient domed kitchen come from?
I think there is a strong parallel between the Night's King 'corpse queen' and Melisandre. Melisandre is described as such 'her skin was smooth and white, unblemished, pale as cream. Slender she was, graceful, taller than most knights (Clash Prologue).
She is also a sorceress (well, she does birth shadow babes).
Incidentally, Qartheens, and Valyrians, are also pale-skinned. Both races are steeped in magic.
Melisandre tells us about the Wall 'Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world.'
Another reason to believe she is quite familiar with this magic.
Did the 'corpse queen' really exist? is she just legend? if she existed, how did she get to the Nightfort? from the Land Of Always Winter?
The Nightfort 'was the first castle on the Wall' and 'the only castle where the steps had been cut from the ice of the Wall itself' (Storm Bran 4).
In summary we have a domed structure denoting Valyrian or Quartheen influence, build on top of a cave system after a weirwood was cut down. It was occupied by the Night's King who had been hoodwinked by a Quartheen or Asshai sorceress.
And it is where the Wall builders first started building the Wall. These builders did not need wooden steps either.
And who wants to live there? Stannis. No doubt influenced by Melissandre, an Asshai shadow binder of Qartheen origin (she cannot be from Asshai as there are no children in Asshai).
At least Stannis won't starve there; he can eat either the hordes of rats or their food supplies (the same food found in Leaf's cave).
Bran also tells us that the Nightfort is 'the end of the world' (Storm Bran 4). At the time of its construction, the Nightfort was meant to be the end of the world.
From the top of the Nightfort's wall, the Stark who lead the Night's Watch, 'glimpsed a woman with skin as white as the moon...', then he cut the weirwood tree, built the domed 'kitchen' and the Wall.
Food for further thoughts:
Bran the Breaker of WF and Joramun, King beyond the Wall, took down the Night's King and his 'corpse queen'.
Will we see Jon and Tormund take down Stannis and Melissandre?
You may tell me that Stannis is not Jon's brother, but my feeling is that because of all his crimes, Stannis will end up in the Night's Watch, as the LC, and in the Nightfort which he has already earmarked for himself.
Last Edit: Aug 31, 2016 5:10:04 GMT by arrysfleas: formatting melee
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."