Post by voice on Mar 15, 2016 5:31:20 GMT
Well no, but even the Dornish and Targaryens want their heirs to be legitimate. Male and female. Bastards are more acceptable than they are in the other kingdoms, but trueborn children still have certain rights that bastards don't. And the original 3 dragon heads were all trueborn.
Oh absolutely. I would be SO pissed! Or if not Cersei, Ashara. Any eligible woman in the 7 kingdoms would have gladly married him; he was literally THE most desirable bachelor in the entire Realm! And he got stuck with sickly little Elia Martell. I always assumed it was Aerys playing a mean joke on him.
Of course, if Rhaegar had been plotting with Dorne for a while, the wedding may have been his own idea, to seal the alliance. And who knows, maybe Ashara was the sister-wife all along? The sister-wife who knew the whole plan, and for some reason decided to turn to Stark and share it.
And on top of this possibility, we have Ashara's possible love for Ned. There could have been many overlapping love triangles. It was the
I have never liked that idea. For so many reasons. It doesn't fit either of their personalities to run off together and make love while their families are slaughtered and the world falls apart.
If RLJ is true, then Lyanna was likely 14 when abducted by a 22 year old and married Rhaegar Targaryen near HH... about 15 when hidden away from her family and impregnated by a 23 year old father who'd abandoned his wife and two children, and left to die at sweet age of 16 in a bloody bed while the 24 year old prince went to war. QoLaB crowns or no, that doesn't sound like "romance" to me.
If RLJ is true, Robert Baratheon is my hero because that fucker deserved a warhammer up the arse.
Thank you thank you. It almost feels like some pieces are falling into place, which makes me feel like we're on the right track!
I feel like a certain other theory has clogged the airwaves for so long it has prohibited a lot of fertile ground for digging.
And I actually agree, Lyanna in the TOJ is not canon. It just currently seems like the simplest explanation, especially if she was being kept in an isolated place in order to keep a secret. (Placing her there to give birth, on the other hand, makes NO sense). But sure, she could have been somewhere else.
Another canonical issue with others (aside from Ned's 7 and the KG 3) being present at the toj is that we are told both in SSM and in the books themselves that "only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed." That pretty much rules out any other living people surviving to accompany Ned and Howland elsewhere. So, I think that rules out Ashara (as she is said to have killed herself at Starfall), and Jon, as he lived to nurse Wylla at Starfall.
The other logistical problem with the toj is that there is no maester assigned to the toj to assist in childbirth as would be expected for any "loved" highborn lady about to pop. Some have suggested a wetnurse (like Wylla) was present, but there are several issues with such speculation. First, wetnurses are not midwives. Second, only Ned and Howland lived to ride away, and that would mean that any other servants/people present at the toj died. And, Ned recalls "They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his." So we are told quite explicitly that Howland Reed was not the only person to walk in on Ned while he was still holding Lyanna's body... "They" found him... Who are they? This leads me to the next big red flag:
We are told in AGoT that Ned only made eight cairns. That means Ned must have left any other bodies present to rot and feed the crows. That seems awfully harsh from our Ned, but you never know.
Last and certainly not least, we are left with the pull-downability of the tower. Five of Ned's friends have just died fighting 3 Kingsguard. Ned himself almost died in combat with Arthur Dayne, the greatest swordsman in living memory. His hide is saved by Howland Reed. Then, even though he was likely wounded, Ned somehow pulled down a large round tower? I think not. Round buildings are incredibly strong. Ned has 7 horses. We aren't told he has rope. We aren't told if he has the means of making fire. And even if he had all of those things, it's just nearly-dead Ned and Howland and eight corpses.
How could they pull down a large tower?
More importantly, why would they bother pulling it down after nearly dying?
And most strange of all, why would they go through that effort with Lyanna's body and baby in tow?
In that case, what do you propose the KG were guarding in the tower? Or are you saying they weren't there either?
Even while dreaming, he only hears Lyanna screaming... and GRRM has warned fans not to interpret that fever dream literally... Some have chosen not to heed his warning, but I think that is a necessary step to take when making the protect vs obey argument. As is neglecting the "They" who found Ned.... but I digress.
I have no idea what the KG were doing at that tower, but they definitely weren't waiting for Ned's northmen. Like Jaime on the Iron Throne, I think they hoped Rhaegar would be arriving shortly. Instead, they got Ned. The location itself is a very good place for a quick meeting spot. It isn't a good location for a childbirth. And whether Rhaegar was raping women or making love with them, it seems likely he would have wanted his child to live. Thus the tower long fallen seems a rather stupid choice for a man who was clearly not stupid.
I'm thinking the KG were waiting for their Prince, or one or more of their fellow KG brothers. Maybe they were waiting for Elia and Lewyn? Who knows. There are many plausible explanations. The only suggestion that doesn't really add up for me is for them to be standing around, guarding X for the sake of guarding X, in the hope that eventually someone would stumble across their isolated tower in the middle of the Red Mountains.
HOLY SHIT!!!
Wow, that never occurred to me, ever. But of course, it makes all the sense in the world! That's why Tywin stayed on as long as he did, despite all the abuse from Aerys, and continued doing a good job. He wanted to be there, to train his protege! Ooooh now we REALLY have to look at Rhaegar in a whole new light, don't we? I always thought of him as lonely, isolated, doing his own thing.... very independent. Which may still be true, but there is no denying that Tywin would have been the primary father figure, and only positive role model, throughout much of his life.
Now, the Defiance of Duskendale and the conversation with Jaime seem quite telling, no?
A Feast for Crows - Jaime I
The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."
Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."
Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard."
Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean that they were allied prior to RR. But it makes it more likely, certainly. And it changes Rhaegar as a character on a fundamental level. Great observation!!
...and far more allied than Tywin and Tyrion...
* I have to wonder if Tywin wasn't ultimately the one who planned the whole thing. If he was Rhaegar's ally, why didn't he fight with him at the Trident? That would have assured victory in a battle with an otherwise uncertain outcome. Rhaegar didn't need Tywin to sit outside of KL with a large army, he needed him at the Trident!
The question in my mind, as you have just pointed out, is whether or not Tywin was acting in accord with Rhaegar or going against the Prince's wishes. I can't answer that. My gut tells me no one really expected the rebels to win. The Targaryens had endured for 300 years. That's a helluva long time.
I think Tywin expected Rhaegar to be victorious, and expected Rhaegar to marry his daughter, and release Jaime from the Kingsguard.
Tywin would get an heir to the Rock, and a daughter-queen. Not a bad trade off.
If Tywin had gone against Rhaegar, he could lose everything -- including his own head.
So no, I think it must have been a part of Rhaegar's plan for Tywin to march on KL. It makes sense for him to do so if for no other reasons that to push Jaime's hand, and to protect Elia and the children until Rhaegar's return. It was war after all, and Rhaegar had left his wife and children at the mercy of his Mad royal sire. It makes sense to me that he would want protection from the man who had always protected him, and the realm, from Aerys' madness.
I propose that Rhaegar thought they were allies, but Tywin betrayed him and, instead of helping him in the battle, he killed his entire family. [This would explain why Rhaegar "didn't expect to lose." He thought help was coming!]
If we know one thing about Tywin, it's that he pays his debts. He was probably planning this for a long time, and Rhaegar, maybe, was a pawn not a player after all...
This too could explain the lack of communications from Lord Tywin. And we know he can be incredibly cruel, particularly to his own "son"...while Jaime played the part of the false hero. Xi0ZekJ