I only have a minute and will get into the actual arguments when I get back, but I needed to get this out of my head.
When Jon first meets Mance, this is the song Mance is singing.
And Jon notes:
Jon knew the song, though it was strange to hear it here, in a shaggy hide tent beyond the Wall, ten thousand leagues from the red mountains and warm winds of Dorne.
The only other time Jon thinks of the red mountains:
He had no destination in mind. He wanted only to ride. He followed the creek for a time, listening to the icy trickle of water over rock, then cut across the fields to the kingsroad. It stretched out before him, narrow and stony and pocked with weeds, a road of no particular promise, yet the sight of it filled Jon Snow with a vast longing. Winterfell was down that road, and beyond it Riverrun and King's Landing and the Eyrie and so many other places; Casterly Rock, the Isles of Faces, the red mountains of Dorne, the hundred islands of Braavos in the sea, the smoking ruins of old Valyria. All the places that Jon would never see. The world was down that road … and he was here. Game, Jon V
But in the Mance quote, he's connecting Dorne and specifically the red mountains of Dorne with the north and the king beyond the Wall. Seems like a marker.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I still hold to the notion that "dragonsteel" like "dragon glass" might end up being a naturally occurring substance. And thus different from Valyrian. But I'm aware it may not make too much difference.
Sorry for the late reply, I have no idea how I missed this response!
I like the idea of dragonsteel being a bit more ordinary as well. I've suggested in Heresy that it could merely have been Bronze, or an archaic term for glass candles.
Iron is another strong candidate. Dragonglass is of course naturally-occurring in our own world under the alias 'obsidian.' It could be that iron (also black) is the naturally occurring equivalent.
Given Mott's description of broken Ice as "stubborn," I'd say yes. Mott can get the red into the sword, but Tyrion describes this as the colors not touching each other, just being waves of red and grey (which fits with LmL's analysis on waves of moon blood).
The steel has its own will that Mott's spells can't break.
Indeed. After all, they are forged with fire, blood, and magic.
Ned provided the blood.
Tobho provided the fire.
And try as he might, Tobho is a blacksmith, not a Valyrian sorcerer. So I'm thinking his spells were not useless, but he was not skilled enough to overwhelm Ned's stubborn blood.
Ned's blood is the only blood not cleansed from the blade during its reforging...
Hmmm. . . I'm wondering if this is part of where the "magic" of a potentially ensouled steel came from. Where the story of AA came from. Seeing that a blade AND a wielder could separate a soul from a body, what happens if it's a blade WITH a soul that the wielder uses? Ups the power and numbers, no?
Indeed. And I'm thinking this is one part of Ser Crackles examination:
The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.
Waymar's blade had never even been swung in anger, let alone fortified with souls or magic. No wonder the Other mocked him. :::
Hmm. . . What song did AA sing when he murdered his wife? A lot of fire spells seem song oriented (this is wolfmaid7's specialty, no?). So--did Mott not know the right song when trying to work Ice into pieces?
I'm thinking that's more LmL's specialty than wolfmaid7's, but they do overlap quite a bit in spite of their disagreements.
But yes, you've come to the heart of this thread. I believe it is this song, the song of The Dornishman's Wife that encapsulates AA's forging of LB.
As for the Dornishman's blade - black steel, very interesting. It's bite is like a leech - it drinks blood.
Indeed. Most leeches are of course black, like this particular Dornishman's blade... but not all:
A Clash of Kings - Arya X Arya didn't care about his precious princess, and didn't like him giving her commands. "I have to bring m'lord water for his basin. He's in his bedchamber being leeched. Not the regular black leeches but the big pale ones."
A Clash of Kings - Arya X The lord's bedchamber was crowded when she entered. Qyburn was in attendance, and dour Walton in his mail shirt and greaves, plus a dozen Freys, all brothers, half brothers, and cousins. Roose Bolton lay abed, naked. Leeches clung to the inside of his arms and legs and dotted his pallid chest, long translucent things that turned a glistening pink as they fed. Bolton paid them no more mind than he did Arya.
This same event is happening to the Wall as we speak. #dawnburnsred
As for the Dornishman's blade - black steel, very interesting. It's bite is like a leech - it drinks blood. This all fits my theory 100%, that Azor Ahai carried a sword of black steel which drinks blood
and House Dayne descends from either him or his Amethyst-eyed sister, or both, and therefore the original Dornishman's blade was in fact a black one which drinks blood.
I'm not sold on this being the ancestry of House Dayne. While some common genes are likely present, we do not know when House Dayne set off for Westeros. It could have been long before AA and the Amethyst Empress ever existed, or, they could have even left because they existed.
Furthermore, AA's black sword is the cause of the Long Night - or at least, its forging is associated with the cause - and I think about it as a "sword of the evening," an opposite to Dawn.
Here, we agree, but in my language we're talking about the 13th Hero and his dragonsteel blade - prior to his mental/physical reforging and the altering of his blade.
In all sincerity though, I'm glad LmL is as difficult to persuade as he is. He is seeing all the same details, if not many more, but pieces them together with a much different picture in mind. I often disagree with his final mosaic, but it is precisely that alternative angle that brings about such fundamental and necessary questions that require address.
:::
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I only have a minute and will get into the actual arguments when I get back, but I needed to get this out of my head.
When Jon first meets Mance, this is the song Mance is singing.
And Jon notes:
Jon knew the song, though it was strange to hear it here, in a shaggy hide tent beyond the Wall, ten thousand leagues from the red mountains and warm winds of Dorne.
The only other time Jon thinks of the red mountains:
He had no destination in mind. He wanted only to ride. He followed the creek for a time, listening to the icy trickle of water over rock, then cut across the fields to the kingsroad. It stretched out before him, narrow and stony and pocked with weeds, a road of no particular promise, yet the sight of it filled Jon Snow with a vast longing. Winterfell was down that road, and beyond it Riverrun and King's Landing and the Eyrie and so many other places; Casterly Rock, the Isles of Faces, the red mountains of Dorne, the hundred islands of Braavos in the sea, the smoking ruins of old Valyria. All the places that Jon would never see. The world was down that road … and he was here. Game, Jon V
But in the Mance quote, he's connecting Dorne and specifically the red mountains of Dorne with the north and the king beyond the Wall. Seems like a marker.
ETA: And I'm out of time.
Preach!
I'd only add that Mance was no king, in truth. He was a community organizer. The real King beyond the Wall is NK, Night's Magnar, a god to his people. Unlike Mance, he'll want callers to kneel.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Mmmm, the Magnar. Now there is a enigmatic House. WTF are they doing up there? Are they, were they, the House of the Night Kingdom in exile?
SlyWren, you're right. Why would Jon, who hadn't been to Dorne, associate this song with the Red Mountains? Is this where the "Rheagar is Arthur" idea comes from?
Voice, I still think that the husband is holding the blade. The soul in the sword...Isn't new Ice part of Widow's Wail, too? So implies Ned (the husband vs the wife)is captured within.
And as long as I'm preaching : The song is ONLY mentioned in relation to Mance. Jon thinks he's heard it before. But when I searched it, the first mention of it in the novels is when Mance sings it. So, the Dornishman's Wife is narratively ONLy connected to the north and the Wall. And a Bael the Bard figure.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
SlyWren, you're right. Why would Jon, who hadn't been to Dorne, associate this song with the Red Mountains? Is this where the "Rheagar is Arthur" idea comes from?
The bolded isn't a theory I've heard. . . Did you mean "Mance is Arthur?" Or sort of a superman thing--Arthur is Clark Kent while Rhaegar is Super-Harpman?
But I agree on the Red Mountains. And it's in Jon's very first Storm POV. The same novel where Arya meets Edric Dayne and hears his story. And Bran hears about Ashara (Knight of the Laughing Tree). And Jon sees the Sword of the Morning with the Wall. A moment which also connects the south with the Wall.
Plus--there is more to Dorne than the Red Mountains. So--interesting that that's the region Jon thinks of re: Dorne. Vs. Sunspear. Or the Greenblood.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I'm a big fan of languages and Magnar is one of the few words we are told of the Old Tongue, and I'm a bit of a Night's King fanatic... So yes, I must admit I too have considered this angle. While the Skagossons are suspicious and enigmatic, I don't think we can associate House Magnar or its bannermen too closely with NK.
It turns out, some of them have even served in the Night's Watch before:
Clydas brought a basin of warm water, and Maester Aemon washed the pus and blood from his wound. Gentle as he was, even the lightest touch made Jon want to scream. "The Magnar's men are disciplined, and they have bronze armor," he told them. Talking helped keep his mind off his leg.
"The Magnar's a lord on Skagos," Noye said. "There were Skagossons at Eastwatch when I first came to the Wall, I remember hearing them talk of him."
"Jon was using the word in its older sense, I think," Maester Aemon said, "not as a family name but as a title. It derives from the Old Tongue."
"It means lord," Jon agreed. "Styr is the Magnar of some place called Thenn, in the far north of the Frostfangs. He has a hundred of his own men, and a score of raiders who know the Gift almost as well as we do. Mance never found the horn, though, that's something. The Horn of Winter, that's what he was digging for up along the Milkwater."
Maester Aemon paused, washcloth in hand. "The Horn of Winter is an ancient legend. Does the King-beyond-the-Wall truly believe that such a thing exists?"
"They all do," said Jon. "Ygritte said they opened a hundred graves . . . graves of kings and heroes, all over the valley of the Milkwater, but they never . . . "
A Storm of Swords - Jon VI
But, according to Old Nan, we are not the first to suspect them:
"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."
A Storm of Swords - Bran IV
Another interesting connection between the NK and a man called Magnar comes in the marriage of Alys Karstark. Presumably, there have been very few weddings at the Wall. Before Sigorn (the new Magnar of Thenn) and Alys, the last "marriage" was probably when the 13th Lord Commander stole his moonmaid. Jon danced with Alys anon, and this makes me wonder if his ancestor, the first Dayne, once danced with Night's Queen. Mayhaps she was a flower from House Magnar of Skagos, before her transformation.
Voice, I still think that the husband is holding the blade. The soul in the sword...Isn't new Ice part of Widow's Wail, too? So implies Ned (the husband vs the wife)is captured within.
Fair enough. I accept I was going down the rabbit hole on that one.
And on the soul in the sword stuff... Yes! Only the New Ice is a part of Widow's Wail, I would argue, as the original is safe at Starfall (unless GRRM lied to us and it's in the crypts).
I definitely think that part of Ned resides in the blade. Otherwise, there would have been no way for his Wailing Widow to recognize Oathkeeper.
Oathkeeper = Promise Keeper = Ned Widow's Wail = Woman mourning husband's death = Cat
One could argue the names were random, but I think not.
Jaime named the first one of course. And Jaime is responsible for Ned's capture (outside the brothel), and gives the sword to Brienne. As he does so, he tells her, "So you'll be defending Ned Stark's daughter with Ned Stark's own steel, if that makes any difference to you."
Joffrey named the second sword, and he knew where it came from.
King Joffrey and his queen met the pie below the dais. As Joff drew his sword, Margaery laid a hand on his arm to restrain him. "Widow's Wail was not meant for slicing pies." "True." Joffrey lifted his voice. "Ser Ilyn, your sword!"
There are many swords in the room, but Joff calls for Ilyn's. The man who last wielded Ice now owns a sword meant for slicing pies.
Joffrey, like his "father" Robert, hid behind paid executioners and soon forgot what death was. He made Catelyn into the Wailing Widow.
And as long as I'm preaching : The song is ONLY mentioned in relation to Mance. Jon thinks he's heard it before. But when I searched it, the first mention of it in the novels is when Mance sings it. So, the Dornishman's Wife is narratively ONLy connected to the north and the Wall. And a Bael the Bard figure.
Yup. Pretty cool huh?
And speaking of Bael and Magnars, he named himself Sygerrik of Skagos ("the deceiver of stone") when he walked into Winterfell. And sure enough, he deceived, and hid out with the stone magnars in the crypts.
'm a big fan of languages and Magnar is one of the few words we are told of the Old Tongue, and I'm a bit of a Night's King fanatic... So yes, I must admit I too have considered this angle. While the Skagossons are suspicious and enigmatic, I don't think we can associate House Magnar or its bannermen too closely with NK.
I swear, at some point I'll come back to actually talk about the thread itself, but until then...
I think that maybe SlyWren and @morrigansraven are actually thinking about the Thenns from way up north with their leader called Magnar and not the actual Magnar family on Skagos.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I think that maybe SlyWren and Morrigan are actually thinking about the Thenns from way up north with their leader called Magnar and not the actual Magnar family on Skagos.
My bad. I thought they were talking about House Magnar.
In terms of the Thenns, I think we can rule them out too. They might've been influenced by NK's theocratic form of leadership, but even that could simply be a First Men artifact. They are running for their lives too, following Mance and Jon Snow over to ice to hide behind the Wall.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
In terms of the Thenns, I think we can rule them out too. They might've been influenced by NK's theocratic form of leadership, but even that could simply be a First Men artifact. They are running for their lives too, following Mance and Jon Snow over to ice to hide behind the Wall.
To play devil's advocate ::: Have you considered that along with Melisandra's theory that the Wildings are actually the Others and that they are not coming through the wall to hide, but rather to attack?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
In terms of the Thenns, I think we can rule them out too. They might've been influenced by NK's theocratic form of leadership, but even that could simply be a First Men artifact. They are running for their lives too, following Mance and Jon Snow over to ice to hide behind the Wall.
To play devil's advocate ::: Have you considered that along with Melisandra 's theory that the Wildings are actually the Others and that they are not coming through the wall to hide, but rather to attack?
What? Link to please please.
While I believe it possible that the Wildlings could very well attack the Watch since they just murdered Jon I doubt all of the Wildlings are secretly the Others.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Wraith, I'm not sure if she's written anything up or not, but I remember her mentioning it in a couple different threads a while back. I think that there was something in heresy too. If I come across it anywhere, I'll let you know.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?