Song of the Dornishman's Wife

So, is the idea that the Dornish/dark/Essosi-origined blades have power via "imbibing" a soul?

And, if he (let's call him Floyd Swordman ::bananaknight:: )--if Floyd has "tasted" the wife, does this mean stabbed in the Freudian or un-Freudian sense?

And the "brothers"--are you assuming that he's saying this when he got killed and ended up in the blade? Or is Floyd undone AFTER being in the sword? If the sword destroyed after tasting the Dornishman's wife?

Indeed. And it may be a power that all blades have. This blade was dark steel, and most blades are not dark in asoiaf unless they are Valyrian.

Valyrian steel likely contains obsidian: Frozen Fire + Steel = Dragonsteel.

And we've seen obsidian separate an Other from his ice-body.

I'm not sure if there is a difference in this series. Martin goes out of his way to make swords phallic symbols, and when they kiss and stab, it is always rather intimate. Ned listened to Gared's last words, kissed him with Black Ice, and then cleansed his life's blood from the blade - feeding it to Winterfell's heart tree.

Hearts move blood, and swords do too. In their lust, men can move their blood to bastards and trueborn children with their other swords. In their cold butchery, the Others can freeze a man's blood and animate him.

The former.

Right now, Jon is the man bleeding. Can he sing? If so, I'd argue it could only be from the song of swords.

Rather than be destroyed, I'm thinking the blade can be transformed by such sacrifices. I think this is why Ned felt the need to cleanse himself and his Black Ice after Gared's execution. And, I think that because Black Ice was not cleansed after Ned's execution, it drank light and the color red and absorbed it into the blade when being reworked by Tobho Mott.

I'm thinking the LH's blade underwent an inverse transformation as he gave his soul to his queen at the Nightfort.

I agree.

Now to go full-meta, imagine that the bleeding man is the Dornishwoman's Husband, and he's merely singing about himself in the third person. Crackpot, I know, unless he is singing of his former humanity.

voice said:
I'm thinking the LH's blade underwent an inverse transformation as he gave his soul to his queen at the Nightfort.
SlyWren said:
Which would make it burn red with lightdrinking shadowed blood.

The only way for the LH's soul to be in a blade, is if someone killed the Night's Queen. That's not canon: we don't know what became of her. I do speculate that he's wandering around wanting his soul back - what is dead can never die- and I wonder if that's the reason the Icy Brotherhood is checking out swords?

Oooh, nicely done. :::

Precisely. Though I call it Otherized blood, rather than shadowed blood.

LOL! If only it were that easy.

In all sincerity though, I'm glad LmL is as difficult to persuade as he is. He is seeing all the same details, if not many more, but pieces them together with a much different picture in mind. I often disagree with his final mosaic, but it is precisely that alternative angle that brings about such fundamental and necessary questions that require address.

LOL! No, not deliberately trying to confuse the idea. I was speaking more from a perspective of my own beloved pet theories, and hoping to put forth a plausible scenario in which the song could be describing a fractured consciousness (like the creation of a horcrux).

One thing that struck me with the 1000 Worlds series (almost finished with it) is how often Martin plays with alternative forms of identity and consciousness, and just how expertly he makes them believable.

When Jon stares into Ghost's eyes, we can truly feel their bond as something far more than owner and pet. I'm wondering if Swords, particularly magical/legendary swords, can be imbued with a similar connection. It is hard to believe that the moonlight/ghost-light emanating from the longswords of the Others is not connected to their lifeforce/life's blood.

I definitely agree with the latter. And suspect that his queen lives as well.

But I do think there is a way for the LH's soul to reside in the blade, if it was somehow imbued with his own humanity/consciousness. He gave his (sword) seed and soul to his queen, and ceased being a normal man of House Stark by darkness. Perhaps, (just a crackpot) his human/Stark side was preserved in the blade even as he and the blade were transformed into pale icy things.

Definitely. While it has been discussed frequently in the little corner of the world known as heresy, I think this is a very underrated event in the prologue.


That heartbeat of hope is interesting. I think Will, either by blood memory or arcane instinct, knew in that instant that the Other would cease and desist if Waymar held a different blade.

The annals tell us the Last Hero slew them with dragonsteel, and that the Others could not stand against it. Unless BC is right and the Others are just Craster's sons (which I guarantee he isn't), they likely remember that and are on the lookout for certain varieties of blades.

Lyanna is definitely that rose growing from the chink in the Wall. I should probably write the following up as a new theory, but it is relevant to the current conversation:

A blue flower¹ grew from a chink² in a wall of ice³, and filled the air with sweetness⁴. . . .  

1. In ASoIaF, a woman flowers. Men do not. In Winterfell, Lords are Winter's Kings, and Ladies are Winter's Roses.
2. A Rose of Winter grows a chink in the white armor (shield) that guards the realms of men (white, like that of a Kingsguard knight, yet "alive with light" - like Dawn).
   
3. Dawn's larger twin.
4. What is "sweet"?

"Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

-- Winter's Rose

Ned made a prayer to the Old Gods long ago that further strengthens this idea:


Jon is Philadelphia. He's the prayer of brotherly love incarnate. Like the city, he's fallen to violence , but that part of Ned's prayer at least remains viable. Love is sweet, and I think Lyanna's love is filling the air from that chink in the Wall.

As it happens, the longsword Dawn just might fit perfectly into that chink.

Well, there's 'rose' (noun) and 'rose' (verb)...

It just so happens that unlike the blue flower, Jon often rises like the pale sword of the morning:

A Game of Thrones - Jon I
"I know," Jon said. He rose. Standing, he was taller than the dwarf. It made him feel strange.

A Game of Thrones - Arya I
Jon watched them leave, and Arya watched Jon. His face had grown as still as the pool at the heart of the godswood. Finally he climbed down off the window. "The show is done," he said. He bent to scratch Ghost behind the ears. The white wolf rose and rubbed against him. "You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

A Game of Thrones - Jon III
Jon rose at dawn the next day to watch his uncle leave. One of his rangers, a big ugly man, sang a bawdy song as he saddled his garron, his breath steaming in the cold morning air. Ben Stark smiled at that, but he had no smile for his nephew. "How often must I tell you no, Jon? We'll speak when I return." 

A Storm of Swords - Jon XI
"Rise. I have heard much and more of you, Lord Snow."
"I am no lord, sire." Jon rose. "I know what you have heard. That I am a turncloak, and craven. That I slew my brother Qhorin Halfhand so the wildlings would spare my life. That I rode with Mance Rayder, and took a wildling wife."


A Dance with Dragons - Jon III
Jon rose and climbed the steps to the narrow bed that had once been Donal Noye's. This is my lot, he realized as he undressed, from now until the end of my days.



This next quote is about the Wall rising, but I really like it and it matches well with Dany's vision of the blue flower (as well as with "The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn"):

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI
Outside the day was bright and cloudless. The sun had returned to the sky after a fortnight's absence, and to the south the Wall rose blue-white and glittering. There was a saying Jon had heard from the older men at Castle Black: the Wall has more moods than Mad King Aerys, they'd say, or sometimes, the Wall has more moods than a woman. On cloudy days it looked to be white rock. On moonless nights it was as black as coal. In snowstorms it seemed carved of snow. But on days like this, there was no mistaking it for anything but ice. On days like this the Wall shimmered bright as a septon's crystal, every crack and crevasse limned by sunlight, as frozen rainbows danced and died behind translucent ripples. On days like this the Wall was beautiful.

I still hold to the notion that "dragonsteel" like "dragon glass" might end up being a naturally occurring substance. And thus different from Valyrian. But I'm aware it may not make too much difference.



Given Mott's description of broken Ice as "stubborn," I'd say yes. Mott can get the red into the sword, but Tyrion describes this as the colors not touching each other, just being waves of red and grey (which fits with LmL's analysis on waves of moon blood).

The steel has its own will that Mott's spells can't break.



Hmmm. . . I'm wondering if this is part of where the "magic" of a potentially ensouled steel came from. Where the story of AA came from. Seeing that a blade AND a wielder could separate a soul from a body, what happens if it's a blade WITH a soul that the wielder uses? Ups the power and numbers, no?


All true.



Hmm. . . What song did AA sing when he murdered his wife? A lot of fire spells seem song oriented (this is wolfmaid7's specialty, no?). So--did Mott not know the right song when trying to work Ice into pieces?


Interesting. Would explain Mott's confusion. He chalks it up to "stubborn blade." What could be more stubborn than a blade with Ned's "soul?"

And sending it south with the Daynes helped "neutralize" it?

Hmmm. . . is "blood is the seal of our devotion" the mantra of Daynes? To remember?

Blood magic from a Stark sacrifice. A blood sacrifice--like the one Bran witnesses. And would make sense that Stark vengeance/sacrifice would manifest blue like the Others to which they are related.

LmL--we've talked about the blue vs. red swords a lot. And I'm still a bit on multiple issues. But--any opinion on this idea?

When Jaime has the weirwood stump dream, he has not seen oathkeeper and WW, so I am not sure why you would equate the silvery blue blades (with pale, silvery blue flame) with the red and black, "waves of night and blood" swords. I certainly do not.