PJ: Ned & Ashara's likely relationship

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PJ: Ned & Ashara's likely relationship Mar 15, 2016 23:38:05 GMT markg171, voice, and 1 more like this

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Post by whitewolfstark on Mar 15, 2016 23:38:05 GMT

A very very good likelihood of what the Ned/Ashara relationship was like, based upon GRRM's prior work, but also his real life relationships and tendencies within ASOIAF as well.

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PJ: Ned & Ashara's likely relationship Mar 16, 2016 0:52:57 GMT via Tapatalk whitewolfstark likes this

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Post by voice on Mar 16, 2016 0:52:57 GMT

Mar 15, 2016 23:38:05 GMT whitewolfstark said:

A very very good likelihood of what the Ned/Ashara relationship was like, based upon GRRM's prior work, but also his real life relationships and tendencies within ASOIAF as well.

While I agree with PJ's premise and conclusion, I can't help but wonder if he isn't getting this stuff from us. All of these "revelations" are old bits of debate and even consensus from Heresy. Seems like old, anticlimactic news to me.

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PJ: Ned & Ashara's likely relationship Mar 16, 2016 1:08:06 GMT voice and whitewolfstark like this

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Post by markg171 on Mar 16, 2016 1:08:06 GMT

My entire problem with anything Brandon/Ashara though is that it's based on... what exactly? Their only ever interaction is Brandon trying to get Ned with Ashara, not himself. Ned/Ashara is one thing, the novels are riddled with their alleged romance. Brandon/Ashara seems to only exist in the fandom's mind though.

Of course though, the one thing I'd wished PJ had touched on was Wylla here. If he wants to say there was a love triangle between Ned, Ashara, and Brandon, and that Ashara left him for Brandon, seems actually very easy to throw in Wylla to this, when most fans seem to get stuck at the part where Ned loved Ashara, but then supposedly fathered Jon on Wylla: Ashara left him for his brother, so he fucked her servant.

Is this typical Ned actions? Well probably not, but it's a typical enough reaction to someone in his shoes if this had happened. His girlfriend hurt him, so hurts her back. It's petty, but it definitely happens often enough that I could see that happening.

But I also like that he actually says that there was something between Ned and Ashara, however brief and tragic. Too many fans seem to think it's just all an entire red herring, whose only purpose in the books is to hide RLJ. It's mentioned too much for that, something was there or nobody would bring it up so much. Whether it has a purpose or not I don't know, but it's there, it's real IMO.

Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!

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PJ: Ned & Ashara's likely relationship Mar 16, 2016 1:48:29 GMT

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Post by whitewolfstark on Mar 16, 2016 1:48:29 GMT

The way I see the possibility of Brandon/Ashara is basically Brandon noticed his little brother Ned had a crush on Ashara and did his brother a favor. And Ashara and Ned at first had that sweet kind of romance, but as Ashara thought of it more, like Catelyn, she was flattered by Ned's attention and found him sweet--but was more attracted to his brother in the end, and Brandon, unable to resist a woman, partook of what was offered.

The only problem is that this is a very short time for this to happen without Ned interacting more with Ashara for them to fall in love. But perhaps there's more going on than we know.

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PJ: Ned & Ashara's likely relationship Mar 16, 2016 4:55:20 GMT whitewolfstark likes this

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Post by markg171 on Mar 16, 2016 4:55:20 GMT

Mar 16, 2016 1:48:29 GMT whitewolfstark said:

The only problem is that this is a very short time for this to happen without Ned interacting more with Ashara for them to fall in love.

Well even more so for Brandon to butt in. Ned's 18 at Harrenhal

He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon's laughter, and Robert's berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king's pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aerys. Afterward, Ser Os well Whent helped Jaime to his feet, and the White Bull himself, Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, fastened the snowy cloak of the Kingsguard about his shoulders. All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.

Brandon's only a year older than him

Not even the wisest could have known that Aerys II would in time be known as the Mad King, nor that his reign would ultimately put an end to near three centuries of Targaryen rule in Westeros. Yet even as Aerys donned his crown, in that fateful year of 262 AC, a lusty blackhaired son named Robert had just been born to his cousin Steffon Baratheon and his lady wife at Storm's End, whilst far to the north at Winterfell, Lord Rickard Stark celebrated the birth of his own son, Brandon. Another Stark, Eddard, followed within a year. All three of these infants, would, in the fullness of time, play crucial roles in the downfall of the dragons.

So he's 19 at Harrenhal.

And we know that Brandon duels Littlefinger when he's 20

Catelyn was past delicacy. "He was my father's ward. We grew up together in Riverrun. I thought of him as a brother, but his feelings for me were … more than brotherly. When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr's life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since." She lifted her face to the spray, as if the brisk wind could blow the memories away. "He wrote to me at Riverrun after Brandon was killed, but I burned the letter unread. By then I knew that Ned would marry me in his brother's place."

And also 20 when he dies

Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen only a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun. His father had been forced to watch him die. He was the true heir, the eldest, born to rule.

So we really don't get much time for Harrenhal to happen, Ned and Ashara to fall in love, Ashara to then leave Eddard for Brandon, then Brandon to die.

It's all rather forced given that Brandon dies like what, maybe 7 months after Harrenhal? At least I could possibly seeing Eddard and Ashara in love in that time and things going sour as well, but can't see also throwing Brandon in too and then Ashara falling for him

Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!

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PJ: Ned & Ashara's likely relationship Mar 16, 2016 8:58:18 GMT voice and whitewolfstark like this

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Post by Wraith on Mar 16, 2016 8:58:18 GMT

Mar 16, 2016 0:52:57 GMT voice said:

Mar 15, 2016 23:38:05 GMT whitewolfstark said:

A very very good likelihood of what the Ned/Ashara relationship was like, based upon GRRM's prior work, but also his real life relationships and tendencies within ASOIAF as well.

While I agree with PJ's premise and conclusion, I can't help but wonder if he isn't getting this stuff from us. All of these "revelations" are old bits of debate and even consensus from Heresy. Seems like old, anticlimactic news to me.

Not everyone can be on the bleeding edge of ASOIAF theories and debates.

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Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!

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PJ: Ned & Ashara's likely relationship Mar 16, 2016 16:17:04 GMT via Tapatalk whitewolfstark likes this

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Post by voice on Mar 16, 2016 16:17:04 GMT

Mar 16, 2016 8:58:18 GMT Wraith said:

Mar 16, 2016 0:52:57 GMT voice said:

While I agree with PJ's premise and conclusion, I can't help but wonder if he isn't getting this stuff from us. All of these "revelations" are old bits of debate and even consensus from Heresy. Seems like old, anticlimactic news to me.

Not everyone can be on the bleeding edge of ASOIAF theories and debates.

True. Lol

Wasn't talking smack though. Usually PJ has a new angle but this one seemed like a recap of heresy and convos here.

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PJ: Ned & Ashara's likely relationship

Post by whitewolfstark on Mar 15, 2016 23:38:05 GMT

Post by voice on Mar 16, 2016 0:52:57 GMT

Post by markg171 on Mar 16, 2016 1:08:06 GMT

Post by whitewolfstark on Mar 16, 2016 1:48:29 GMT

Post by markg171 on Mar 16, 2016 4:55:20 GMT

Post by Wraith on Mar 16, 2016 8:58:18 GMT

Post by voice on Mar 16, 2016 16:17:04 GMT