We like Sam because he's smart and well-meaning and nerdy and probably someone most of us would be friends with.
But he'd have made a terrible lord. Sam Tarly isn't going to defend Horn Hill or any other Tarly lands from bandits or more aggressive neighbors. And while Randyll is Sam's father, he's also the lord. He's responsible for maintaining the land and the people. Passing the title on to a weak or easily-bullied person like Sam is just going to lead to more pain for all involved. So in a sense, disinheriting Sam is also the humanitarian option.
Tarly is another GRRM "gray" character. We first hear of him through Sam, and we think he's a big jerk. But he's actually a pretty just lord, if a little harsh. IIRC, don't we hear about him executing or gelding rapists, etc.? So he has a concern for justice, for law and order, for stability, and a weak lord (Sam) is a threat to all those things.
Oh I agree that Sam would have made a terrible lord--that's not the part I disagree with. I disagree that Sam "never tried", and suggested that Randyll went about the wrong way of reaching Sam (i.e. Sam worked with different incentives than Randyll was used to). Mark and I both had our say on the matter and I saw that neither of us was going to move the other on the matter, so I left it go.
So yes, I agree that Sam would have made a terrible lord, it's other parts I disagree with.
No, because he never tried. He wouldn't practice with weapons, he wouldn't make political alliances, etc. And then the moment Dickon is born, a literal newborn baby, Sam completely and utterly gives up. He never tries again after Dickon gets born, he lets Randyll devote himself to Dickon. He had zero inclination to do anything an actual noble had to suffer through.
Randyll was not looking for Sam to be just like himself. He was just looking for Sam to be able to fulfill the basic duties of a lord. Sam wouldn't fight. Sam wouldn't even learn to fight in case he had to. Sam wouldn't make friends with the people his family needed to. He had zero ability to be a proper Lord of Horn Hill. That's Randyll's problem when he looks at Sam. Sam will ruin Horn Hill because Sam won't do what lords need to do.
Sam could've been semi-competent and Randyll would've happily let Sam succeed him. It's only when Sam was utterly incompetent and refusing to change this that Randyll did what he did.
Glad I'm not alone. I mean he got warlocks from Qarth to try and make a man out of Sam. I doubt most Westerosi Lords even know Qarth exists. He just went to incredible lengths with Sam. Sam just never seemed to try.
Exactly, he went to incredible lengths, far and beyond what anybody else does. Yet Sam couldn't be bothered to try.
And hell, just look at Dickon. He's perfectly fine. Actually he's better than fine, he's everything anybody could want and more. He's the one who stopped the "take Brienne's virginity" game. He marries for duty despite being 13. Etc. And he was raised by Randyll too, far more exclusively than Sam was.
Jon is able to get better results from Sam because he understands that Sam has other talents, and recognizes to play up to them better than to force him into a mold unsuited for him. And doing so is able to push him into being a little more martial (archery) than he might otherwise have been inclined to be.
See I dispute this. Jon is no different than Randyll. He straight up orders Sam to practice his archery every day. He straight up orders him to do his daily sword work. He straight up orders him to stop being a coward. Etc. Jon is just as iron as Randyll was, there's no brokering here: it's you will get better, I'm ordering you too.
The only difference is that Sam actually decides to try this time around. That's it.
Agree that Sam would not have been as militant a Lord as his father... But why should Sam try to emulate his severe father? Petyr Baelish wasn't a fighter, but has garnered plenty of power. Davos is not a great military strategist, and couldn't even read, but he seems like a good man anyway. And of Stannis' many lords declarent, Davos typically offers the better counsel.
So while Sam would definitely have been a far different Lord than his father, I think it is wrong to assert Sam was a bad son. He wasn't Dickon, but the world has enough dicks.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
So while Sam would definitely have been a far different Lord than his father, I think it is wrong to assert Sam was a bad son. He wasn't Dickon, but the world has enough dicks.
Hahaha! That about says it all.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
My argument is that Randyll could have had the semi-competent Sam, if he had been a tiny bit kinder to him rather than crushing his confidence and self esteem at a very young age through years of physical and psychological abuse.
Yup. You can't gallop a donkey like a horse, but donkeys are far more sure of foot on rocky terrain. Randyll wanted a war-stallion, not care and deliberation.
But he'd have made a terrible lord. Sam Tarly isn't going to defend Horn Hill or any other Tarly lands from bandits or more aggressive neighbors. And while Randyll is Sam's father, he's also the lord. He's responsible for maintaining the land and the people. Passing the title on to a weak or easily-bullied person like Sam is just going to lead to more pain for all involved. So in a sense, disinheriting Sam is also the humanitarian option.
While of course we simply do not know and can never know, I think if anything, GRRM wrote Samwell's character to suggest otherwise.
See I dispute this. Jon is no different than Randyll. He straight up orders Sam to practice his archery every day. He straight up orders him to do his daily sword work. He straight up orders him to stop being a coward. Etc. Jon is just as iron as Randyll was, there's no brokering here: it's you will get better, I'm ordering you too.
The only difference is that Sam actually decides to try this time around. That's it.
Completely disagree. Jon never dressed Samwell up in women's clothes.
Alliser may be no different from Randyll, but Jon is very much so.
Right but either way, Sam isn't training for either of them. Sam would be training for Horn Hill, and Sam would be training for the Watch. Randyll didn't even train Sam, and neither does Jon. Sam has different trainers in both times, yet he only decided to do it when Jon told him to obey his master-at-arms and trainers, and not when Randyll did.
You might want to consider Lord Randolph of Church Hill. His son was also seen as a failure for most of his young life. The boy was rather chubby, had a speech impediment, and was sent away to a military brotherhood by a distant father. While the young man begged his mother to return home, he was denied... and in spite of not demonstrating any considerable academic ability, he developed a keen interest in history.
In spite of his excessive weight and lackluster achievements, the boy ended up being a far greater Lord than his father during the greatest peril the world had ever known. :::
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
In spite of his excessive weight and lackluster achievements, the boy ended up being a far greater Lord than his father during the greatest peril the world had ever known.
Yes, but not before becoming a soldier and seeing combat. (Also, that smiley was perfect for that reply)
I like Sam the character, and Sam the "person." He's just not a good heir if he can't lead men.
I like Sam the character, and Sam the "person." He's just not a good heir if he can't lead men.
I agree that it is hard to take orders from a man you laugh at in your cups, let alone a fat boy bathing in aurochs blood and wearing ladies' clothes.
Randyll created the hopeless coward that limped into Castle Black. Some sons can thrive with that kind of ridicule, but clearly Sam was not that kind of kid.
It takes many different links to make a chain, and Randyll wanted one of solid iron, devoid of other learning. You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean tin is useless. One might argue Sam did not try, but how can tin try to be iron?
Randyll never even attempted to get to know his son, or appreciate him. By doing both, Jon was able to build Samwell, brick by brick, into a brother of the Night's Watch - a Slayer of Others.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
It takes many different links to make a chain, and Randyll wanted one of solid iron, devoid of other learning. You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean tin is useless. One might argue Sam did not try, but how can tin try to be iron?
Randyll never even attempted to get to know his son, or appreciate him. By doing both, Jon was able to build Samwell, brick by brick, into a brother of the Night's Watch - a Slayer of Others.
Exactly! And let's look at Sam's list of adventures/accomplishments, by age 18: He has ridden beyond the Wall with the NW and survived an attack by the Others. He then killed an Other with just a dagger. At Craster's, he stole himself a woman and ran off with her into the night. At the hut by the ww tree, he would have been killed but he bravely tried to fight the wight and defend Gilly. He then rode an elk with an undead NW brother, crossed underneath the Wall through the Black Gate of legend, and emerged from the Nightfort. There he met Bran Stark and is in fact the only person who knows he is alive and beyond the Wall. He aided Bran in going through the Black Gate, then walked back to Castle Black with his wildling woman. He fought in the big battle at the Wall, and IIRC he actually contributed decently well. He helped get Jon elected Lord Commander (speaking of leadership), and was then his #1 righthand man.
Next, he sailed in autumn seas all the way to Braavos, where Dareon deserted him. He found him and confronted him, even attacking him when he refused to return. Yes he got his ass kicked, but he tried. He is not being a coward. He met Arya, then sailed to Oldtown, losing his virginity along the way. Then he met Marwin the Mage, another legendary figure, and is now poised to access the most coveted documents in all of Westeros, all while hanging out with a Faceless Man and one of Oberyn's daughters in a room with a glass candle.
What's Dickon done lately?
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
He then rode an elk with an undead NW brother, crossed underneath the Wall through the Black Gate of legend, and emerged from the Nightfort. There he met Bran Stark and is in fact the only person who knows he is alive and beyond the Wall. He aided Bran in going through the Black Gate...
Burned-Hand Jon and Bran the Broken remind me of FDR.
(pictured with Leaf)
Semi-trustworthy Bloodraven in his frozen tundra would be Stalin.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
It takes many different links to make a chain, and Randyll wanted one of solid iron, devoid of other learning. You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean tin is useless. One might argue Sam did not try, but how can tin try to be iron?
Randyll never even attempted to get to know his son, or appreciate him. By doing both, Jon was able to build Samwell, brick by brick, into a brother of the Night's Watch - a Slayer of Others.
Exactly! And let's look at Sam's list of adventures/accomplishments, by age 18: He has ridden beyond the Wall with the NW and survived an attack by the Others. He then killed an Other with just a dagger. At Craster's, he stole himself a woman and ran off with her into the night. At the hut by the ww tree, he would have been killed but he bravely tried to fight the wight and defend Gilly. He then rode an elk with an undead NW brother, crossed underneath the Wall through the Black Gate of legend, and emerged from the Nightfort. There he met Bran Stark and is in fact the only person who knows he is alive and beyond the Wall. He aided Bran in going through the Black Gate, then walked back to Castle Black with his wildling woman. He fought in the big battle at the Wall, and IIRC he actually contributed decently well. He helped get Jon elected Lord Commander (speaking of leadership), and was then his #1 righthand man.
Next, he sailed in autumn seas all the way to Braavos, where Dareon deserted him. He found him and confronted him, even attacking him when he refused to return. Yes he got his ass kicked, but he tried. He is not being a coward. He met Arya, then sailed to Oldtown, losing his virginity along the way. Then he met Marwin the Mage, another legendary figure, and is now poised to access the most coveted documents in all of Westeros, all while hanging out with a Faceless Man and one of Oberyn's daughters in a room with a glass candle.
What's Dickon done lately?
Well, Dickon's only a prepubescent boy in his father's shadow. He hasn't had as much opportunity to step out of it yet. Kinda unfair comparison Maester.
Semi-trustworthy Bloodraven in his frozen tundra would be Stalin.
There's so much room for analogy there. Our story has a giant wall, and will quite possibly have a mass-starvation event intentionally precipitated by some rather frosty fellows. Hell, we might even have all manner of proxy wars going on, depending on what one thinks about who's pulling the strings.
There's so much room for analogy there. Our story has a giant wall, and will quite possibly have a mass-starvation event intentionally precipitated by some rather frosty fellows. Hell, we might even have all manner of proxy wars going on, depending on what one thinks about who's pulling the strings.
Glad you agree.
#teamsamwellwasagoodson LOL
But yes, tons of parallel. The Otherization of Others is a part of any good war strategy. One must dehumanize an enemy to build a Wall against an enemy.