Was Sam a bad son to Randyll?

I wish more people understood this, and where Randyll himself was coming from when he did what he did. It would indeed have been bad had Randyll let Sam succeed him, when he's got Dickon who's everything his successor should be.

Randyll was a bad father sure, but Sam was equally a bad son.

Glad I'm not alone. I mean he got warlocks from Qarth to try and make a man out of Sam. I doubt most Westerosi Lords even know Qarth exists. He just went to incredible lengths with Sam. Sam just never seemed to try.

No, because he never tried. He wouldn't practice with weapons, he wouldn't make political alliances, etc. And then the moment Dickon is born, a literal newborn baby, Sam completely and utterly gives up. He never tries again after Dickon gets born, he lets Randyll devote himself to Dickon. He had zero inclination to do anything an actual noble had to suffer through.

Randyll was not looking for Sam to be just like himself. He was just looking for Sam to be able to fulfill the basic duties of a lord. Sam wouldn't fight. Sam wouldn't even learn to fight in case he had to. Sam wouldn't make friends with the people his family needed to. He had zero ability to be a proper Lord of Horn Hill. That's Randyll's problem when he looks at Sam. Sam will ruin Horn Hill because Sam won't do what lords need to do.

Sam could've been semi-competent and Randyll would've happily let Sam succeed him. It's only when Sam was utterly incompetent and refusing to change this that Randyll did what he did.



Exactly, he went to incredible lengths, far and beyond what anybody else does. Yet Sam couldn't be bothered to try.

And hell, just look at Dickon. He's perfectly fine. Actually he's better than fine, he's everything anybody could want and more. He's the one who stopped the "take Brienne's virginity" game. He marries for duty despite being 13. Etc. And he was raised by Randyll too, far more exclusively than Sam was.

Sam's the problem here, not Randyll.



See I dispute this. Jon is no different than Randyll. He straight up orders Sam to practice his archery every day. He straight up orders him to do his daily sword work. He straight up orders him to stop being a coward. Etc. Jon is just as iron as Randyll was, there's no brokering here: it's you will get better, I'm ordering you too.

The only difference is that Sam actually decides to try this time around. That's it.

But this is still the same situation Sam was in with Randyll. As the future Lord of Horn Hill, he'd have to know how to fight if Mace Tyrell ever called his banners, or if Horn Hill ever was in danger. And Randyll was pushing him to learn the skills he'd need to do those. He needed the skills that Randyll was trying to have him taught.

It's just change war with humans for war with zombies, and Randyll wanting Sam to know how to fight humans with Jon wanting Sam to know how to fight zombies. It's the same thing.

And of course, if Sam had already known these things as he was supposed to, then he'd never have had to learn them at the Wall in the first place.



Right but either way, Sam isn't training for either of them. Sam would be training for Horn Hill, and Sam would be training for the Watch. Randyll didn't even train Sam, and neither does Jon. Sam has different trainers in both times, yet he only decided to do it when Jon told him to obey his master-at-arms and trainers, and not when Randyll did.

Well actually he wasn't though. Sam says that the moment Dickon was born that Randyll stopped trying.



Sam's born in 283. Dickon's born in 287-290. So Sam was actually only "bullied" for 4-7 years before Randyll stopped. He had 8-11 years where Randyll didn't give a shit about him. And of course, that's 8-11 years where Sam never once attempted to go back out into the training yard or doing anything that he needed to do to prepare to be Lord of Horn Hill.

Sam spent the majority of his life not being pressured by Randyll at all.



I think he could've made a good lord too... if he'd at least become the semi-competent person he is today. But as I just said above, Sam spent the majority of his life not training at all or even being put down by Randyll at all. Randyll's training forms the smallest part of Sam's life, not the biggest. He almost, possibly more than, a decade without Randyll doing anything to him. And with Sam not doing anything back either.



Ah but see the difference between Sam and Willas is that Willas DID learn to fight. He got crippled jousting after all. He did his training, he learned to fight. Maybe he can't physically fight anymore, but if Highgarden was ever attacked he still has all the mind of the warrior he was trained to be. He can still lead Highgarden's armies and defences, even if he can't personally fight. Sam doesn't know anything about tactics or strategy because he never learned them.

And of course, the other difference is that Willas did the other thing that nobles need to do besides learn to fight, which is make political friends. His best friend, well not best but the one we know the most about, is Oberyn himself. A Prince of Dorne. And he was going to marry Sansa Stark despite never having met the girl, and being like 15 years older than her. With his leg gone he applied himself to the other areas that nobles need to be practiced in. Sam? Well Sam couldn't even make friends with the people he was supposed to be squired with, and ruined a betrothal in the process because of it.

Sam could've succeeded Randyll, he was just a failure in every way as an heir. The semi-competent Sam of today, who's alright with a bow and sword and capable of political manueverings, would have succeeded Randyll no problem. The Sam who couldn't do anything, and more important didn't try and do anything both when pushed and ignored for a decade, no. Hence why Randyll sent him to the Wall.

I would bet that if someone had bothered to teach him, Sam would have been quite good at tactics and strategy. He is, after all, quite smart and he would love to read about all the historical battles and apply that info to the present.

Fair enough, he didn't make friends easily. But that could have been, at least in part, due to being terrified - which was a direct result of Randyll's bullying. As a young boy, he used to play with the cook's kids in the kitchens, so he wasn't always socially inept. He is perfectly capable by ADWD, so we know he can do it. I doubt he just refused to try before; he was simply too scared of doing or saying something wrong in front of Randyll.



My argument is that Randyll could have had the semi-competent Sam, if he had been a tiny bit kinder to him rather than crushing his confidence and self esteem at a very young age through years of physical and psychological abuse.

A nice counter-example to the Randyll/Sam scenario is the warm relationship between Brienne and her father. She wasn't the heir he would have wished for, yet she never felt unwanted. She ruined 3 betrothals, yet he still supported her in wanting to become a knight. If Sam had been born into Brienne's family, and raised the way she was raised, he probably still wouldn't be a warrior but he would be extremely competent at everything else.

But what do you mean by Sam really not trying? The Redwyne twins hated him from the moment they saw him, b/c he was fat. Then they picked on him and beat him for 3 days. What was he supposed to "try" to do? It's not like he arrived and was a dick to them, and then they didn't like him. He never stood a chance.

I don't know why Sam being a maester would bring shame to house Tarly. That's something that is only in lord Randyll's mind. Lots of noble houses have sent sons to Oldtown, including the Targaryens who at the time had been ruling the Realm for almost 300 years. If Randyll Tarly thinks he is better than them, he has even more issues than I thought.
Maesters give up all claims to land and titles, and they drop their family name! That's even better than being in the NW. And Sam would have been a GREAT maester, most likely. It's right up his alley. So rather than being a terrible NW brother (which I'm sure is what Randyll expected, though he actually did ok), he could have been really good at a very important job. Quite possibly he could have even become an archmaester, in time. No shame there...



I do disagree that Randyll wouldn't have really killed Sam. Sending a kid like him to the NW is the equivalent of killing him anyway. Which may be the real reason he chose that over sending him to Oldtown.