(f)Dany

Well I think there's a certain subtlety to most of it in that if you were to just read Dany's story, it all works fine. It's when you see Braavos from Sam and Arya's perspective that hey, that's not the Braavos that Dany described. It's when Ned, Jaime, Catelyn, etc., meet Darrys that hey, none of them are great bears of men. Nor would Darry have ever had soft hands if he were a master-at-arms. Or when Tycho tells Jon that Braavosi don't joke around about dragonlords, and Arya learns the story of Braavos' founding that you realize that Braavos makes no sense for the Targaryens to have hid in. Or when Illyrio tells Tyrion a bunch of history about Dany and Viserys. Or all the characters talking about where lemon trees actually grow which isn't Braavos. Etc.

Well I think there's a certain subtlety to most of it in that if you were to just read Dany's story, it all works fine. It's when you see Braavos from Sam and Arya's perspective that hey, that's not the Braavos that Dany described. It's when Ned, Jaime, Catelyn, etc., meet Darrys that hey, none of them are great bears of men. Nor would Darry have ever had soft hands if he were a master-at-arms. Or when Tycho tells Jon that Braavosi don't joke around about dragonlords, and Arya learns the story of Braavos' founding that you realize that Braavos makes no sense for the Targaryens to have hid in. Or when Illyrio tells Tyrion a bunch of history about Dany and Viserys. Or all the characters talking about where lemon trees actually grow which isn't Braavos. Etc.

The subtlety is there so long as you read Dany's story on its own.

Fair point. Still, the fact that her take on the past coming only from Viserys might be tainted. . . seems like that's made pretty clear, even on it's own.

Well I know I've mentioned this before in the past, but I'd say it has a lot to do with people being convinced of other theories that rather rely on Dany being Aerys and Rhaella's daughter. Primarily speaking of course of RLJ and their head canon regarding it. That if Dany isn't Dany well then you might have to completely throw out everything about RLJ. Or at least change some ideas about it. Which of course meets a lot of resistance among the fandom.

Especially if Dany is Rhaegar's child. RLJ becomes really hard to make work.

But I truly believe if you were to go over the story, look through the characters, you'll find far and away more support that Dany's the one who needs to be explained here, not Jon. We're told "who" Dany's parents are so we accept that, while seeing that Jon's mother gets a lot of speculation (so long as you first ignore Eddard and Edric saying it's Wylla) and assume there's more of a mystery in regards to Jon than there is with Dany. Dany's mystery just doesn't have anybody coming straight out and challenging you to truly sit back and say "Hey wait a minute..." you have to first learn all the various pieces that prove that Dany's story needs to be explained better.

YUP! Jon gives us more of a clue because he doesn't know who his mother is, but is sure of his father. So, we know to look for something.

But Dany--she thinks she knows who her parents are and isn't looking. So readers don't look.
Though even just in Game: Dany looks at Viserys before his crowning and thinks

When the sun of her life reached her, Dany slid an arm around his waist. The khal said a word, and his bloodriders leapt forward. Qotho seized the man who had been her brother by the arms. Haggo shattered his wrist with a single, sharp twist of his huge hands. Cohollo pulled the sword from his limp fingers. Even now Viserys did not understand. "No," he shouted, "you cannot touch me, I am the dragon, the dragon, and I will be crowned!" Game, Dany V

Dany knows he's not her brother. Granted, this could be strictly symbolic, but she calls herself the true dragon earlier when holding her eggs. And after Jorah told her Rhaegar was the last dragon. She knows instinctively she's like Rhaegar. Not the man who had been her brother.

Throw in the armor moment, and:

She lifted her head. "And I am Daenerys Stormborn, Daenerys of House Targaryen, of the blood of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and old Valyria before them. I am the dragon's daughter, and I swear to you, these men will die screaming. Now bring me to Khal Drogo." Game, Dany IX.

There's a lot in Game to tell us she's Rhaegar oriented--not Aerys or Viserys.

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(f)Dany Apr 6, 2016 20:10:25 GMT voice and whitewolfstark like this

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Post by SlyWren on Apr 6, 2016 20:10:25 GMT

Apr 5, 2016 15:15:53 GMT voice said:

This yields either R+L=J+D, or R+L=J & R+A+D. The trouble with R+L=J+D is that prophecy, not lust, would have been what put Rhaegar in Lyanna's bed and (in spite of her aversion to men who keep multiple beds) and Ned attributes Jon's siring to lust. Another issue that arises is that Dany exhibits so few Stark traits, be they physical, moral, or wolfish in nature.

The problem with R+L=J & R+A+D is that this would make Lyanna into a child-woman brood mare, and yet Ned would find it hard to believe Rhaegar would visit brothels and bear the man no anger for having breached Lyanna's betrothal to Robert and left her to die in a bed of blood at only sixteen years of age.

The letters don't add up for Jon.

Nor do the stars. Both Jon and Dany have that affinity--not Stark or Targaryen, but stars. "The heart of fallen stars."

Daynes seem part of the recipe.

Apr 5, 2016 15:15:53 GMT voice said:

He looks directly at Dany who had just walked right on by her "father"...and who feels drawn to this room. Now to go full-meta...

What if Ashara was in the room with Rhaegar and Elia, and Rhaegar said that to her?

I'm liking this very much. Dany's reaction to Aerys is--old and weird. Even Drogon doesn't like him.

Finally a great pair of bronze doors appeared to her left, grander than the rest. They swung open as she neared, and she had to stop and look. Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat," he said to a man below him. "Let him be the king of ashes." Drogon shrieked, his claws digging through silk and skin, but the king on his throne never heard, and Dany moved on. Clash, Dany IV.

But with Rhaegar: sweetness and sadness:

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"
"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way. Clash, Dany IV.

Rhaegar is better than Viserys.

But MUCH better than Aerys. Much stronger emotional connection. The music lingers.

Also, the fact she can't tell who he's speaking to--if Ashara is there, he might be speaking to both women.

Apr 6, 2016 4:42:19 GMT markg171 said:

Well I've heard some argue that it's actually GRRM poking fun at himself for not knowing where Braavos was when he first created the world, but that doesn't make much sense. If he'd first envisioned Braavos elsewhere, and with a different climate, he'd have described Braavos differently when he first did it with Arya/Sam over a decade after he first told us that Dany was in Braavos. The fact that he kept Braavos where he put it, gave it the climate that he did, and kept Dany being from Braavos proves IMO that it's meant to not make sense. It's an intentional error that's meant to be revealed come AFFC when he has characters actually visit Braavos.

Okay--do people actually argue this? Seems like that's assuming a LOT.

Apr 6, 2016 4:42:19 GMT markg171 said:

And that as to the purpose of the guardsmen, that if after 6 books and a decade after he described Braavos in AFFC, if you're still sitting here saying that Dany lived in Braavos you need some Lannister guardsman telling you that you're an idiot because Braavos is too far north. He gave the clues 10 years ago it's time to now start saying "C'mon guys"

YUP!

Exactly. Either he's entrenched and enshrined a mistake in perpetuity within his magnum opus, or it serves a literary purpose. It can't be both.

YUP!

I can't say it enough, all the arrows (stars) are pointing south, just as a certain needle (sword) points north.

All the time spent in Dorne seems rather pointless otherwise. Doran's plans seem. . .not fruitful. So, why are we talking about Dorne? Because it matters to the endgame of the Others, not just the politics.

I think.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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(f)Dany Apr 6, 2016 21:16:59 GMT voice, SlyWren, and 1 more like this

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Post by markg171 on Apr 6, 2016 21:16:59 GMT

Either he's entrenched and enshrined a mistake in perpetuity within his magnum opus, or it serves a literary purpose. It can't be both.

Team literary purpose of course

Where else would Elia's handmaiden be, and why else would Rhaegar turn away from her?

It is an interesting concept to think about. This is an intimate moment. Elia has just given birth and they've just named their son. Where is Ashara, the maid? Would she be in the room, or would she be giving them some privacy at this moment, possibly standing in the door way as a silent observer (like Dany).

Because I mean obviously speaking, if this were a true vision of something that actually happened, Rhaegar can't possibly have spoke to Dany. Someone in the doorway, the exact spot Dany is, however would cause the scene to play out exactly as it truly happened. That Rhaegar didn't speak to Dany, he spoke to the person in the door.

And again, as I went over in the essay, like come on. The guy needs a 3rd kid, he's got his prince, his prince just needs a sibling. The guy finds out his wife can't have kids anymore. His maid happens to be smoking hot. The probability that he banged Ashara should be very high.

Apr 6, 2016 19:57:46 GMT SlyWren said:

Still, the fact that her take on the past coming only from Viserys might be tainted. . . seems like that's made pretty clear, even on it's own.

Oh no I agree. You can still find oddities in Dany's story on it's own to make you question things (like Dany's whole itinerary that doesn't make sense for instance). I just meant that it's more once you start learning about everything else from other characters, that a lot more things start to stand out as being wrong.

Apr 6, 2016 19:57:46 GMT SlyWren said:

There's a lot in Game to tell us she's Rhaegar oriented--not Aerys or Viserys.

Which is why it's so interesting to me whenever I hear people say that AGOT holds the most RLJ clues... does it? Because it seems like a lot of AGOT actually is trying to point us towards Dany. I mean as I already went over, Eddard spends most of his time doing things because of Dany and trying to keep her alive. Jon? Eddard gives him literally like two thoughts throughout the whole book. You have to take all of Eddard's repeated actions centered around Dany, and instead say that he's feeling and doing all the things he does because he's actually afraid for Jon, someone he spends almost zero time on. I mean it's possible, just seems more like you're trying to just rip things out of their natural context and force another one.

Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!

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(f)Dany Apr 6, 2016 23:00:17 GMT whitewolfstark likes this

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Post by voice on Apr 6, 2016 23:00:17 GMT

Team literary purpose of course

I think we just found our call to action for Twitter this week folks:

#literarypurpose @thelasthearth thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/572/dany

It is an interesting concept to think about. This is an intimate moment. Elia has just given birth and they've just named their son. Where is Ashara, the maid? Would she be in the room, or would she be giving them some privacy at this moment, possibly standing in the door way as a silent observer (like Dany).

Precisely what my brain was imagining.

Dany was standing in the doorway, drawn to the room, but kept a respectful distance... as Rhaegar looks her (and her mother?) in the eyes and tells her "There must be one more..."

It's symmetrical, masterful, and bittersweet. GRRM's #literarypurpose

Because I mean obviously speaking, if this were a true vision of something that actually happened, Rhaegar can't possibly have spoke to Dany. Someone in the doorway, the exact spot Dany is, however would cause the scene to play out exactly as it truly happened. That Rhaegar didn't speak to Dany, he spoke to the person in the door.

Have I just converted The Mark G to #teamtruevisions?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!!?!!??!?!?!!??!?

...!?!?!?!!!!!??!?!?!?!?!!
LOL

And again, as I went over in the essay, like come on. The guy needs a 3rd kid, he's got his prince, his prince just needs ~~a sibling~~.

^ a female sibling

The guy finds out his wife can't have kids anymore. His maid happens to be smoking hot. The probability that he banged Ashara should be very high.

Insanely hot...

Allow a man a moment to ponder the possibilities...

I mean... dayum!

You can have that or start a war over

SPOILER: Click to show

LOL

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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(f)Dany Apr 6, 2016 23:01:26 GMT voice and SlyWren like this

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Post by whitewolfstark on Apr 6, 2016 23:01:26 GMT

One last possibility voice.

There is still one possibility of R+L=J & R+L=D both being true. After all, GRRM knows that they're 8 - 9 months apart, which makes them perfectly able to be Irish Twins. But that would require Lyanna running away because... duh duh duh, she was pregnant in the first place (from Harrenhal) and needed somewhere to go to hide out. And it would also likely require that Dany was born a bit early, which might explain Lyanna's troubled birth.

I doubt it, but GRRM has left the door open for himself, should he choose to go that direction.

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(f)Dany Apr 6, 2016 23:10:08 GMT Direwolf Blitzer and whitewolfstark like this

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Post by voice on Apr 6, 2016 23:10:08 GMT

Apr 6, 2016 23:01:26 GMT whitewolfstark said:

There is still one possibility of R+L=J & R+L=D both being true. After all, GRRM knows that they're 8 - 9 months apart, which makes them perfectly able to be Irish Twins. But that would require Lyanna running away because... duh duh duh, she was pregnant in the first place (from Harrenhal) and needed somewhere to go to hide out.

Hmm. That does indeed open the door...

It would mean R+Lust=Jon, which in my mind is a necessary requirement for RLJ. The trouble, then, would be to explain Ned's nonchalant (and even positive) reflections upon the man who dishonored his sister - not only beyond the sanctity of marriage, but soiling the vows Rhaegar had sworn to Elia and the pact made for Robert and Lyanna.

Apr 6, 2016 23:01:26 GMT whitewolfstark said:

And it would also likely require that Dany was born a bit early, which might explain Lyanna's troubled birth.

Very plausible.

Apr 6, 2016 23:01:26 GMT whitewolfstark said:

I doubt it, but GRRM has left the door open for himself, should he choose to go that direction.

Aside from Ned's continued ambivalence, I agree. But I'd think Ned would be quite angered by the memory of Rhaegar had he defiled his fourteen year old sister, and stolen her from the man he loved like a brother, only to leave her to die amid blood and roses - long before her time.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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Post by wolfmaid7 on Apr 7, 2016 4:48:13 GMT

Apr 3, 2016 11:23:26 GMT voice said:

It is!? Do we know this for sure??? SlyWren, markg171?

Given all the imagery of Dorne around her.I would say one way or the other her origin lay there.We could say birth,or birth and family line as in Ashara.

Apr 4, 2016 19:08:40 GMT markg171 said:

Not for sure obviously, but I'm fairly confident that Dany's initially from Dorne. People can harp on Lemongate all they want, but the lemons=Dorne clues have gotten more with each passing book, not less.

This be true,true.

Though I'm wondering if the greenseers. . . .if the problem is that humans shouldn't cross the line all the way.

Leaf says human greenseers are more powerful, right? But what if that's the problem--they can't handle the power. Or the truth.

I have to pull this together in an essay but i think the problem lay in two things.

1.I think aleast with regards to BR's posse we are dealing with one dominant personality.I for one don't think GRRM introduced what Bran could do with Hodor with the added emphasis on Bran saying "no one knew it was really him."Same with what V6 tried to do with Thistle and again that addition that "no one would know it was trully him."The idea of the several Brans that live thousands of years and storm kings that live thousands of years makes sense and takes on a new meaning.So a big portion is that they are suppose to fade away and become apart of nature that's the nature of what suppose to be.

Secondly,there is the interferring which i have no doubt they have been doing in terms of the weather and the seasons.

Yes--this seems more and more likely. Dany's story is off from the start. And the Dornish tie, as you say, keeps showing up.

Yeah this is one thing that can't be ignored,its as noticeable as Jon's dream and pull to the crypts.

Yes--Martin's not been subtle with that. The idea that Dany doesn't know stuff isn't subtle, either. But the question of her parentage is more subtle. And echoes Ygritte's "you know nothing" to Jon.

Hah i think he's pulling our legs with this comparison.Those who don't know and those who think they know but don't truly know.

YUP! I hadn't noticed it either until very recently. But the stars in daylight--that's Jon seeing the Sword of the Morning. And Sansa's seeing the cloud castles battling at dawn.

Sun-and-stars (stars in a daylight sky) is joy and life and sex. The dragon destroys all of that. Two opposing sides of self? Dragon vs. Dayne?

Yeah the Dragons do seem out of their era so to speak.

Apr 5, 2016 15:15:53 GMT voice said:

Honestly, this is one of the few theories that support RLJ to me. If Rhaegar is Dany's father, I can see Jon as being Dany's brother. Alone - he doesn't make sense. With Dany - he might.

My reasons for this are two-fold. First, Jon is not said to be Targaryen-looking, but he doesn't seem to be bad looking. There is also the fact that Ned attributes Jon's siring to lust - and Ashara inspired lust.

The other fold, that makes RLJ make sense to me, is that Rhaegar needed "one more" daughter... not one more son. He had just named Aegon. Aegon had two sister-wives, but his prince that was promised only had one. Thus, he'd be all about another girl while staring at Dany in the HotU...not another boy.

Alfie Allen's "Skywalker" description of Jon's parentage after supposedly gaining an answer from GRRM has always interested me as well. He's one of the few actors in the series interested in the books. We should invite him to the Hearth, actually.

This yields either R+L=J+D, or R+L=J & R+A+D. The trouble with R+L=J+D is that prophecy, not lust, would have been what put Rhaegar in Lyanna's bed and (in spite of her aversion to men who keep multiple beds) and Ned attributes Jon's siring to lust. Another issue that arises is that Dany exhibits so few Stark traits, be they physical, moral, or wolfish in nature.

The problem with R+L=J & R+A+D is that this would make Lyanna into a child-woman brood mare, and yet Ned would find it hard to believe Rhaegar would visit brothels and bear the man no anger for having breached Lyanna's betrothal to Robert and left her to die in a bed of blood at only sixteen years of age.

The letters don't add up for Jon.

The thing is the things you say cannot be uniquely ascribed.

I mean what does his looks or lack thereof have to do with this?
The lust angle again not unique and to me the one person that excludes is Rhaegar......( I'll come back to this).

"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"

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(f)Dany Apr 7, 2016 4:59:50 GMT via Tapatalk

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Post by voice on Apr 7, 2016 4:59:50 GMT

The lust angle again not unique and to me the one person that excludes is Rhaegar......( I'll come back to this).

I'll have to come back to this later as well, because I'm watching the show, but I definitely agree with this part...have you seen the Eddard IX forensic file thread?

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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Post by markg171 on Apr 7, 2016 7:48:09 GMT

Apr 6, 2016 23:10:08 GMT voice said:

I'd think Ned would be quite angered by the memory of Rhaegar had he defiled his fourteen year old sister, and stolen her from the man he loved like a brother, only to leave her to die amid blood and roses - long before her time.

Why? I mean he's not angry at Aerys for murdering his father and brother so horrifically that he lied to his wife and family, the maesters, and the whole realm about how they died because it was so horrifying. Don't exactly see why he should be suddenly all mad at Rhaegar for kidnapping and raping his sister when he's never mad at Aerys who we definitely know harmed his family.

Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!

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(f)Dany Apr 7, 2016 8:06:47 GMT

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Post by voice on Apr 7, 2016 8:06:47 GMT

Apr 7, 2016 7:48:09 GMT markg171 said:

Why?

Apr 7, 2016 7:48:09 GMT markg171 said:

Don't exactly see why he should be suddenly all mad at Rhaegar for kidnapping and raping his sister when he's never mad at Aerys who we definitely know harmed his family.

This seemingly contrary assessment really isn't... but I don't want to derail your thread.

My explanation is here
thelasthearth.freeforums.net/post/28823/thread

Apr 7, 2016 7:48:09 GMT markg171 said:

I mean he's not angry at Aerys for murdering his father and brother so horrifically that he lied to his wife and family, the maesters, and the whole realm about how they died because it was so horrifying.

Ned didn't lie to anyone about the manner of their deaths, he simply didn't elaborate upon the details. Considering Ned was not present for their executions, I find it unlikely he knew as much detail as Ser Jaime or Ser Barristan...

Your judgement of his interpretation of their deaths is just that. Ned never named it murder.

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(f)Dany Apr 8, 2016 3:43:34 GMT voice and whitewolfstark like this

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Post by SlyWren on Apr 8, 2016 3:43:34 GMT

Oh no I agree. You can still find oddities in Dany's story on it's own to make you question things (like Dany's whole itinerary that doesn't make sense for instance). I just meant that it's more once you start learning about everything else from other characters, that a lot more things start to stand out as being wrong.

Blasphemy!

You actually read the WHOLE book?

On a straight note--YUP!

Which is why it's so interesting to me whenever I hear people say that AGOT holds the most RLJ clues... does it? Because it seems like a lot of AGOT actually is trying to point us towards Dany. I mean as I already went over, Eddard spends most of his time doing things because of Dany and trying to keep her alive. Jon? Eddard gives him literally like two thoughts throughout the whole book. You have to take all of Eddard's repeated actions centered around Dany, and instead say that he's feeling and doing all the things he does because he's actually afraid for Jon, someone he spends almost zero time on. I mean it's possible, just seems more like you're trying to just rip things out of their natural context and force another one.

I'd amend that to say he's concerned about both of them--but once Jon is at the Wall, he's much less worried about his future. Just feels really guilty in the black cells about something he wishes he'd talked to him about.

But with Dany--once Robert raises the idea of her being a problem to be dealt with, she's on Ned's mind. He's having to actively fight for Dany's life at times in a way he doesn't for Jon. Seems like Dany's peril increases Ned's focus.

But I agree re: RLJ on Game. I agree that the novel shows us that Jon's parentage has questions. As does Lyanna. But it is not the only focus. Plus, the theory has to contend with the rest of the novels--which bring up other things (in my opinion) that should really be considered.

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voice Administrator Absolution Bastard Posts: 9,520 Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2 Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 3 voice inherit Absolution Bastard Male Administrator 6 0 1 Apr 24, 2020 19:16:11 GMT 14,511 voice 9,520 Nightmare Moon Jul 22, 2015 20:02:17 GMT July 2015 Twitter voice Example 2 Example 3	(f)Dany Apr 8, 2016 3:48:54 GMT via Tapatalk Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by voice on Apr 8, 2016 3:48:54 GMT Apr 8, 2016 3:45:05 GMT SlyWren said: Apr 6, 2016 23:00:17 GMT voice said: I mean... dayum! Wait--what about the redheads? I'm not racist SW. I don't discriminate. But IF Ashara had red hair, she'd be sitting next to me.
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(f)Dany Apr 8, 2016 3:53:49 GMT

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Post by SlyWren on Apr 8, 2016 3:53:49 GMT

I have to pull this together in an essay but i think the problem lay in two things.

1.I think aleast with regards to BR's posse we are dealing with one dominant personality.I for one don't think GRRM introduced what Bran could do with Hodor with the added emphasis on Bran saying "no one knew it was really him."Same with what V6 tried to do with Thistle and again that addition that "no one would know it was trully him."The idea of the several Brans that live thousands of years and storm kings that live thousands of years makes sense and takes on a new meaning.So a big portion is that they are suppose to fade away and become apart of nature that's the nature of what suppose to be.

Like Varamyr starts to lose himself in his wolf (after his death)?

The idea of repeated self and consciousness is clearly a possibility, I usually read it as "humans repeat history when they forget it"--which is why Bran's seeing it all now--to remember what's forgotten. But the idea that they are really repeating is interesting.

Would also apply to Dany--the moon who is wife of sun. And, after catastrophic collision, her child dies, and she is reborn as the mother of dragons. She "just knew" how to wake them. Almost like a living memory infused into her--via the dream?

Secondly,there is the interferring which i have no doubt they have been doing in terms of the weather and the seasons.

Okay--I'll hold my questions on this so as not to deal Mark's thread. But I will be interested to see where this goes when you get time for your essay.

Yeah this is one thing that can't be ignored,its as noticeable as Jon's dream and pull to the crypts.

Hah i think he's pulling our legs with this comparison.Those who don't know and those who think they know but don't truly know.

Yup!