(f)Dany

The interesting thing about the flood narratives is the re-start. The beginning (after the flood) is not the ultimate beginning. And although the Biblical story ends with a promise not to do it again, I think the existence of the story creates questions about earlier beginnings and the possibility of ends and beginnings in the future. The Long Night didn't wipe the structures clean, but it would have created a manner of re-start for civilization, and probably with only a few families surviving.

The friendship motif is one that I haven't really looked to in ASOIAF, but it is worth noticing.

Maybe they were fostered together due to hostility between the families. Maybe neither Baratheon nor Stark knew that his son would be fostered with the son of the other. Fostering sons from different families doesn't seem to be something that we see elsewhere in ASOIAF; someone may have had a purpose of reconciliation in it. Or, as different as Ned and Robert were, it is very likely that they didn't get along well initially; there had to have been some good fights. I'm obviously working with tinfoil here, but I don't think we're given much information

There is something mystical about sex: it is powerful, it is a strong tool for manipulation and control, it can seemingly possess people, causing the most intelligent people to make the worse decisions, it can change the perceptual world. Sex and sexual desire can transform a person. Mel's first skills of control and manipulation might have been through sex and maybe as a temple prostitute. We don't really know anything about her religion and my impression is that her magic comes from other sources. Rhllr magic might consist of sexual manipulation and one guy rising from the dead (multiple times).
As for Littlefinger, he is an enigma. Some theories try to tie him to the mystic. We just don't know what he is after or what his game really is.

No, it's use in monotheism was an adaptation. In the earlier, Babylonian version, there were multiple gods involved.

I'm not clear if Rh'llr is a monotheistic god, with the Great Other being a lesser being, or if it is a dualistic system, with each being a more or less equal power. But we really don't know what elements Mel has imported. Would the temple priests approve of Mel burning people; maybe she attributes that practice to Rh'llr but it is just a technology of power that she has learned somewhere, not at all related to the Red God. Or maybe the religion does advocate human sacrifice by burning. I don't think Thoros would approve, but he may not be the best example of a priest. We just don't know.

I don't know about the Norse religious outlook, but in the classical world, Greece and Rome, the lines between human and divine were less clear. A man could become a God. Julius Caesar made claims of being the son of Zeus, and people know who his actual father was. Emperors were worshiped as divine. So to make claims of divinity was not necessarily to deny having biological parents. So for a man to claim divinity may not require trickery as much as some extraordinary skill and a unique disposition and with tremendous willpower.

I like this notion. It still involves some real ethical tangles but different ones from giving children to be eaten or killed by/for the Others.

I think there are some hints of Stark sacrifices, or at least room for some strong theories. But the problem with Brandon's as the sacrifice is that I don't think you sacrifice the heir. But maybe you do foster your heir. Maybe Bran the builder fostered with the Others and returned, with some extraordinary skills and knowledge.

Not the only time Jon stresses it's importance. From GOT, Jon VII


Perhaps Ned learned, at least in part, but too late. Once he knew that terrible secret, it re-shaped his perspective on Rhaegar, or Robert's Rebellion, or even Aerys. Or maybe learning something of his duty as a Stark caused him to freak out, taking some actions that he never would have otherwise.

Interesting. I'm not familiar with the Quranic version. Of course, it is possible that two families did survive, but one family left and the remaining family wrote the propaganda to feature themselves and omit the others. Starks could be an interesting candidate for the Midnight Travellers. But the Rhoynar (Dornish) could also be an interesting possibility

Interesting thought and yes, it could fit at least as well as the Starks, for similar reasons. Do we know if the length of days varies by latitude?
What was the reason Uzeyir was called the Midnight Traveler?

Üzeyir and later Moses were referred for their journeys, Üzeyir left Noah and the landing pace of arc to found a civilisation that didn't receive any guidance (prophet figure) from the God, still this civilisation may affect the history more than other post flood civilisations mentioned in the Quran. Moses was called Midnight Traveler for his journey to the Holy Land, you know him spotting the burning bush incident.

Yes in several ways it does seem similar. And there is some similarity between ice and water, although with ice and cold destroying the world, there might be a little more left behind. Water as a source can be very destructive, so perhaps that is why we see some great structures surviving. This makes me think a bit more about Storm's End. It seems hinted that it's the winds that have taken a toll on previous structures, but water could have affected the castle as well. I know it's said to be on a rise over the sea, but if the sea can rise several hundred feet, or even have a great tidal wave affect a coast line, maybe that could have affected such a structure. Isn't it said that before the current castle, other structures at the location where destroyed 6 times. Storm's End is said to be buffeted by terrible storms every fall. I wonder how that might affect Aegon/Young Griff's army/situation if they manage to take the castle?



Well, Ned and Robert seem like very different people, so I can see there might have been some early conflict or dislike. It makes me think back on how Ned recognized bad feelings between Robb and Joffrey, and he felt like Bran was good natured and could heal that conflict and become Joff's friend. So, perhaps there is something like that in the story of Ned and Robert's early years that we don't know yet. I can imagine Robert and Brandon butting heads, because they are so alike, and perhaps Ned was used to try to repair that situation?Actually, Ned might have adapted to Robert fairly easily, since I think that Robert and Brandon were similar in behavior and attitude, so Ned might have been used to a Brandon/Robert type of character.

But why chose Jon Arryn to be the mediator of these boys and this healing process? Maybe because it's neutral ground? And he's a neutral man? It would be interesting to know if the seeds of the rebellion came long before the fostering of these boys and they were part of the process, or the fostering happened and then the idea's of rebellion started with the father's (and the sons) of these men? I don't know that we can currently get that information from the text.



Well, we do see Beric seemingly be able to rise again and again, and that is attributed to fire magic, although I tend to think all the magic is the same, and it's just who or how it's wielded that makes it seem different. Because I can see it argued that Beric's resurrections could come from the weirnet as well.

Melisandre seems to be able to wield some type of magic. Some of her "magic" is tricks and powders and smoke, but some of it has to be very real. After all, she incubated a shadow image of Stannis who was capable of the very real murder of Renly. And something very similar must have happened with Cortney Penrose's death. So, she has power. Where she learned in or what it's real source is, that I am not sure. But she seems quite tied to the idea of R'hller and to the idea of fire as a savior of a sort.

As to sex and magic, I did a quick internet search for sex magic and found some interesting things. Certainly there is a bit of an occult idea when it comes to sex used for magic, often tied to the devil, but also just tied to mysteries and the unknown. I came across the name of a man named Paschal Beverly Randolph, who was a promoter/teacher of the concept of sex magic and his teachings tie to his wife as a "superior women" and that a harlot or low women (what ever that means) is useless for sex magic. Interestingly he did not want virgin's or women under the age of 18, which is very decent of him, but needs a woman who has known man before. He also talks about some experiment that takes 49 days (that's a lot of days) but I didn't look into the details. But it does make me think about Melisandre and if she could be considered a "superior woman"? But in Mel's case, I would say she is the one wielding the magic, therefore she might need to look for a "superior man" to work her magic with. So far she had used Stannis and has propositioned Davos and Jon Snow.

I also came across Alister Crowley, who had written about levels of sex magic, and he called sex a "supreme magical power". Crowley is credited with being the founder of a religion called Thelema; I had thought he founded Wicca, but I am wrong about that. Anyway, there seems to be a fair amount of early 20th century writing on such things, and I wonder if any of them could tie back to what Melisandre has going on in the story?

And let me be clear, that I don't know much at all about this topic, only what I could find in about a ten minute internet search.




He is an enigma in many ways. We really don't understand his endgame, or how well he is truly playing the game. He seems to be succeeding, but is that because his one plan is that good, or because he is adaptable and has many plans in place. His character is smart, no doubt, but I expect him to overplay his hand at some point.



What a great point about Julius Caesar, and also Octavian who became Augustus. I was just talking about those two men last night, and how we have months named after them, July and August. It seems like truly amazing conceit to get a whole month named after yourself, but if you truly think your power is somehow divine, then it doesn't seem so arrogant. Well, it really still is, but...



Yes, absolutely. It would be very difficult to give your child up, as we understand from the experience with Jon and the wildlings, or even Dany and those children she is fostering in Meereen. They are considered foster children, but they are also considered hostages. So, perhaps if this was going on with the Other's, (or still is if we think of Craster's sons) then the children could fit both criteria. I have my tinfoil that Ned was held as a hostage in the Vale (probably with Jon Arryn serving as a surrogate for Aerys) but at the same time, he was also a prized foster son, and seemed to be well taken care of in the Vale. We also have hints of this with Theon, who is more definitely a hostage, but also a ward of Eddard Stark. The lines are not clear in these situations and maybe the lines are never clear in any such situation? 



Well, not all of the Brandon's are heirs. In the case of Ned's generation, it is so, but not in Ned's children. Another thing that I have noticed in Stark names is that we get variations of names, such as Eddard, Edwyle, Edrick, or Rickon and Rickard, but we don't get variations of Brandon. It's just Brandon. I think that there is something important in the lack of changing that name. Even if they might be called Bran's, they are still Brandon's, and that could go back as far as Brandon of the Bloody Blade, said to be a son of Garth Greenhand. It's an old, important name, and one that isn't altered over time. Brynden is similar but i don't know if it's connected and we don't have any Brynden's in the Stark line. As a matter of fact, most of our Brandon's are Stark's or bastard Stark Snow's. We have a couple Brandon's in the north currently that are not Stark's, a Tallhart and a Norrey, but the name also seems mostly reserved for the Starks.



Nice. Yes, there seems to be something more at work in this exchange between Sam and Jon than what meets the eye.



And some of that knowledge or awareness might have come to Ned very near his end. We know he was having dreams on the way to King's Landing and in Kings Landing, but he was also having dreams while he was a captive in the darkness of the Black Cells'. If he had some kind of breakthrough of knowledge in that place and at that time, he might have been forced to use Varys as a way to get his message out. Hopefully someday we will know what was in that letter that Ned gave to Varys.





I am very interested in the concept of "midnight traveler" and how it possibly could relate back to GRRM's story. It has such potential! And I am curious as what it could mean potentially in the story of the Quran. Those names meanings seem to be quite important to the overall story being told. 

Well Dragon is gate of creator God and maybe referred as Ophiuchus which stands at opposite of Sirius aka Gate of People/Babil, Babil in Quran is related to malaika Harut and Marut whose names end same as Talut, Davud and Jalut (David and Goliath) and Gate of God would be where Moses/Musiy spotted the burning bush at Bilad/Holy Land IMO. Sirius is Dog/Wolf Star and wolves are connected to water too, welp I am getting confused.

I looked into the constellation Ophiuchus because it's not one that I know much at all about. I found it is opposite Orion in the sky. I think GRRM mirror's Orion in the Sword of the Morning constellation, and perhaps the Ice Dragon might in some way mirror Ophiuchus? Ophiuchus used to be more widely known as Serpentarius, and a few of it's more noted stars are Rasalhague meaning head of the serpent charmer and Cebalrai meaning dog of the shepherd. This reminds me of the Valyrian's being noted to be shepherds before they were dragon riders, and it also does bring to mind Sirius, the dog star, which is not in Orion, but closely follows it in the night sky. You reminded me of the dog star/wolf star, and how I think that is related to the Sword of the Morning. Great point in noting these stars and star clusters such as the Gate of the People and Gate of God. I believe the Sirius Gate is also known as the Lion's Gate , but that might be because of the constellation Leo. In these three constellations we have Warrior's followed by a loyal dog, a serpent and a lion, hinting to me at a great warrior, a direwolf, a dragon and a Lion of Lannister. I wonder of GRRM really thought all of this out, and it's just some amazing coincidence?

Your mention of David and Goliath reminds me a bit of one of our more warlike, beastly giants in the story, Robert Strong formerly known as Gregor Clegane. It has always made some sense to me that a much smaller man might be the person to defeat the giant. I had thought it would be Tyrion, and it still might be, but we already seen Gregor face and be defeated by Loras Tyrell (even if Loras was perhaps cheating a bit) but now I am wondering about other people who are not very large in stature. Arya comes to mind, and she has many reasons to want the Mountain to die. 

I need to think a bit more on these gates in the heavens and how they could potentially relate to GRRM's story.

Of course, our entire planet wasn't glaciated. For that matter, I'm not clear whether the Long Night was planet wide. Interesting to think earlier civilizations could leave no evidence. Glaciers that can turn topography to a plain will certainly wipe out cities. During the Little ice Age several centuries ago, some mountain villages were destroyed by glaciation.

It's probably not a good season for attacking Storm's End, or for campaigning from it. I've never paid close attention to the attack on Storm's End nor have I tried to think through the implications. It would probably be fruitful

I'm open to the thought that all magic has the same source. I think it is also possible that there is essentially the same technology working but empowered differently or working through different streams. In fact, I lean toward the multiple streams notion, although they may intersect or interfere with each other in some sense. I doubt that any magic is directly sources by a powerful being fitting the description of Rh'ller. I am more open to the actual existence of the Old Gods because they are so undefined that just about any agent that is working through the Weirnet could be called 'the Old Gods.' I lean toward some collective consciousness, which could be more-or-less literally thought of as old gods

This works, with the underlying idea that magic is a set of technologies and becomes religion when a God's name is attached to it. But I think a power source and a medium is needed (medium meaning something to convey the 'energy', not meaning a person who speaks for the dead).
Raising the dead is a technology that has different looks, maybe due to varieties of technology. We have Beric and Davos, who seem to be fully alive, although Beric would disagree with 'fully.' And Beric can be killed in the normal way. SToneheart seems like something that should not be able to live, making me think of wights more than Beric. The wights seem like dead things that move and are really hard to kill. Then there is Cold Hands, who has black cold hands like a wight and is enough covered that we don't know much more. Our impression is that CH has a will of his own, but maybe he is a wight that is fully controlled, or maybe someone wrested him from the Others and is controlling him for a different purpose. We don't know how many puppetmasters are operative. For that matter, Littlefinger got a seemingly mortal wound while he was in running water, so maybe we should add him to our list of potential resurrections
The technology of the Weirnet and of glass candles may be similar, but is conveyed through different media so looks a bit different, and may have different limitations.

Not really apt to the anything we're discussing, but maybe relevant to the thread:
Cat thinks Littlefinger has a mortal wound, so ruby red drops of blood are flowing from his chest as he falls (to his knees?) in the water and, with what she expects to be his last breath, murmers a woman's name.