(f)Dany

It is interesting we don't know what happened to spehard Valyrians that didn't settle and switched their herds with dragon, well a man and his canine companion can have connections to shepherd as well right?

You are right about Jon Snow being a possible David figure but who in his blood line have importance of a Messiah? Dany being a David figure with her child Rhaego as Solomon would make sense too

Very much so, a shepherd often has dogs to help him tend his flock. Perhaps we are looking for a physical resemblance to connect these shepherds to the Valyrian's but the resemblance isn't silver hair and purple eyes (although we still have the potential of the Dayne's, but they are not connected to dogs in any way that I know of). But we have the Stark connection to dogs, or perhaps its more than just the Stark's? Perhaps the split in Valyria indicated that some connected to dragons and chose that path, and other's developed a skinchanger type connection with animals (not just dogs, perhaps) and those are the other Valyrian's.



Well, any of our young people still have potential to have a child, and perhaps that would have been part of GRRM's five year gap if he had pursued that path. I know it's fairly distasteful by modern standards but I still think there is potential hints for a Jon/Arya relationship and a potential child. If we look to Davos, he still has several sons, although he has lost several as well. I don't know if I see Tyrion as a father figure at all. Also, who would be considered a potential messiah for the Other's?

Great Work! I don’t think R+L=J is true at all. It ruins the story, but I honestly prefer Daenerys of being a Valyrian slave girl. It still cheapens the story just a little bit if she is Rhaegar + Lyanna’s child.

Many in the fandom convinced of RLJ, and that is fine as well, but it doesn't feel right to me. Honestly any R+L combination doesn't feel right to me, but if it's Dany over Jon, that would make more sense. She at least shows aspects of both fire and ice within herself and her actions, but Jon really shows only ice, the north, the snow, the cold. I am personally all over the place with options for Dany's parents, and I have concocted some major tinfoil over the years. But I see many possibilities in the text. elvingreyjoy , welcome to the board, by the way!

I would agree that for GRRM's world, glaciers were not part of the Long Night. At least in the topography that we have been shown. Cold and darkness and snows definitely were!



I do see what you are saying, and I am not trying to say everything in that bucket is an apple, when the bucket obviously contains oranges, peaches, pears and apples. But when looking at "all-father god's" there are similar things in common. Zeus, Jupiter, Odin, the Dagda, Osiris, Indra, Ahura Mazda are fulfill a certain role in their individual societies, yet they each of certain attributes that connect them to each other, either in leadership, power, or even in a domestic sense. They are all quite individual and suit their own culture and therefore pantheon, yet something unites them as at least similar. But we are looking at our real world history/mythos and trying to understand what GRRM has done in his world. And his world is fictional, where all things are possible, as well as being fantastical, where even more might be possible.

Anyway, my sense of magic in the world of ASOIAF is similar to cell energy in our world. All things consist of atoms, at least at an ordinary matter level. Atoms are everything but they alter slightly with protons, electrons and and neutrons. But they are all still atoms. That is my sense of magic in GRRM's world. That at it's basic level, all magic is the same, because it all is made of the same stuff. With alternations, of course, which could certainly change how a practitioner directs or uses the magic, or even perhaps what they want to do with the magic. For instance, Melisandre is probably not going to work magic to create a tidal wave that would put her fires out, even if the very source of the fire and the tidal wave are the same. Anyway, I am not sure if I am making that sound in any way logical, but I see atoms, with their individual particles as having the same basic makeup and they are all attracted to each other with a nuclear type of force. That force can be altered and those atoms changed or directed to do different things, yet they are still at the basic level, made of the same things. That is how I look at magic in ASOIAF. The deities are what people do to give names to the powers that they feel, but the power is the same on some level, no matter what something is called.

And my disclaimer is that I am no scientist, nor a chemist, so my understanding of these things isn't that deep. My explanation might make a chemist pull his/her hair out in frustration! 



I certainly think with the Faith of the Seven, there are aspects of that current religion in the form that we see it, that have adopted practices from thousands of years ago. That's what the Christian church did when trying to bring people who practice "pagan" worship into their own system. They adopted and adapted practices, celebrations, idea's, but they gave those things different names. It doesn't make the practices that different at a basic level, but it certainly changes the names and ideas about things. Cultures adapt to each other and form something different that encompasses everyone at some point. So, it makes sense to me that the Faith of the Seven might have developed in a similar manner. It's even more broad minded that Christianity, based on the Abrahamic religions, because that definitely forbids the worship of other gods. Only one god, but the Faith doesn't seem to do that, although it wraps up seven deities into one overall idea. It still has representations of seven deities in most septs. Of course in Christianity, there is not a way to represent God in a statue, so we see statues or representations of Jesus, or sometime Mary. I have yet to see statues that represent God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, even though the trinity concept is quite prevalent in Christian belief. Although you do see the idea of the Holy Spirit represented by doves or sometimes eagles, and God as light, there is no statue that people come to worship that hints at light or doves. GRRM's Faith of the Seven is similar to Christianity, but it's not nearly the same. However, the structure of the political aspects of his church are quite similar to our own world medieval Catholic Church.

And so when you see animism, I can agree that there are certainly aspects of it within the structure of the Faith of the Seven. And that might be because when the Faith came to Westeros they did adapt somewhat to the religious structure of the continent at that time, but it's been so long ago, or because it's not taught to people, they have forgotten.



This really feels like what I was trying to say with magic all coming from the same source. It's all the same "energy" if that word works better, but the manipulation of it differs depending on the goal or the major concept a person wants to highlight. I see magic and energy as the same thing.



This is great stuff! I am thrilled you seen that in the text. There are such similarities. Now, I am not sure in Dany's vision what makes her think the man she saw was a prince, or that he was dying, but it certainly does mirror Cat's explanation of Littlefinger's injury. I don't think of Cat and Dany as very connected in any way, but they might be similar as a witness, or in some role. Except Dany wasn't there in her visions. So, does she see from an omniscient perspective, or is she viewing through another human's perspective?



In Bran's case, I think it was possible he died when he hit the ground, but by the time someone found him, related probably to Summer's howling, he was alive again. If that is the case, then water had nothing to do with his resurrection. Yet, Bran might not have died at all, just been badly wounded, and never needed to be brought back from death. And summer's howling kept him from the final step of death, perhaps? Davos is hard to say as well, because there are no witnesses, except himself, and he is somewhat confused about what happened and how he got where and how much time it had been. Beric does seem more likely that he died, yet we don't ever see any of that like we do in the show. It all happens off screen, so to say, so we never see if there is that moment of death, or the coldness in his body. Catelyn it seems must have been dead. Three days in the river, corpse white and starting to rot, and then Beric's kiss of fire/live wakes her up. Someone needs to tell Melisandre about this! Why doesn't Mel know, anyway. One would think her visions would show her something like this. After all, I think the Ghost of High Heart seen something that hinted at Cat's fate.



Something in Dany's vision give her the impression that the man she saw was a prince, and that he was dying. I think rubies are involved in what she see's.


So rubies do have something to do with Dany's vision, and this is probably what makes us think it was Rhaegar that she saw. Based on your comparison to Littlefinger's injury, it doesn't mean that the prince Dany see's actually dies. But the idea of water and a women's name connects them. Did the injury and blood flying from Littlefingers chest mimic the rubies flying from Rhaegar's armor? I certainly need to think on this a bit. What kind of blow did Robert level on Rhaegar anyway, that would have crushed his armor to the point of caving in his chest? Now, I can see a blow to the chest causing cardiac arrest with an arrhythmia presented, which would be interesting, because electricity (energy) can redirect that rhythm, and we also have people doing CPR in this world, though usually that's related to the Drowned God. But perhaps someone did this for Rhaegar after his massive injury?



The timeline is vague at it's best. I don't know that we have enough information in the text to decide this, and I am not sure if GRRM has ever been asked this in an SSM. If so, I have never seen it posted.

And yes, there are similarities in some cases and differences in others. But I think that is pretty standard with the parallel's that I see in the text. None of them are exactly the same. I think if they were, then they would not need to keep repeating to get a new outcome.

There are definitely similarities, especially with the chief god. And the differences reflect differences in the societies. The elites of Classical Greek society were a pretty libertine bunch. While the Roman elites (at least early in the Helenistic period) were more conservative and family oriented, so Vixen Aphrodite and Mother Venus. Equating them really does create a divine angle on the Virgin/Whore trope

I think you are probably right at the most basic level. I think it works best to think of technologies rather than energy because we don't understand the 'power source', and that may effect the outcome. Magical communication is a technology that probably doesn't vary whether you put the name Rh'ller or old god on it, but it might vary if the technique changes, such as using weirwood or glass candles. There are definitely differences in results when the dead are raised, but the differences may be in the tools or methods used or may be differences in the age of the bodies or even in the intention behind the raising.
I doubt that it makes a difference to invoke one god or another if the technique stays the same. This may differ when the old gods are involved because there seems to be some identifiable disembodied (or re-embodied) consciousness involved that can be identified as old gods

I think we get difference perspectives from within the Faith of the Seven. We see adherents who call the old gods demons and we see adherents who seem open to the faith of the old gods. It's hard to say which is normative

A good argument that the woman's name was not Lyanna is that Dany would have recognized that name and not just thought of it as a woman's name. In the same sense, she would have seen Rhaegar, rather than 'a prince.' So I think we should be open to the idea that she did not see Rhaegar or hear 'Lyanna'. And this narrative provides another possibility. Maybe LF was wearing something that made Dany think 'prince.' Or maybe she had an omniscient perspective, as we sometimes seem to have in dreams
But if she was seeing Littlefinger, then I think we need to start looking for potential connections between him and her. It seems unlikely that he impregnated Rhaella, or Lyanna. Or I suppose it could be a connection between Dany and Cat

Maybe Mel does know. Or maybe she has seen it in a vision but misinterpreted it. Or maybe whoever is sending her visions doesn't think she needs to know.

Since Lyanna wasn't a Princess I would say it doesn't fit at all, I think Bael and Stark Maiden makes the most sense when it comes to Princess and lover runs away part but Dany/her family losing the Throne so Dany ruling Essosi states makes sense too, if my crackpot is right and Ashara Dayne is Princess Shaena - yes I am crazy like that - than any son of Ashara losing rulership of Winterfell would make sense too.

Well Quranic timeline is fixed and clear, Messia Esav is son of Mariam who is sister of Haroon (Aaron), which means Esau son of Miriam, whose uncle is Aaron should be Messiah, Quran says Messiah was hidden in Torah and we can see it was by seperating Esau to multiple different figures. We have Esau brother of Jacob (doesn't exist in Quran), Isaiah a prophet who wrote about who will follow after him, Joshua a companion/student of Moses these people should be combined to form Quranic Messiah.