(f)Dany

I hadn't picked up on that. But it could indicate some real significance to whatever happened to Aerys while he was held captive

I think there are some hints of how people can be affected during isolation, such as the captivity that Aerys was held in. We see in Ned in the Black Cells, Jaime in the dungeons of Riverun. We don't really get Ned after his captivity, except during his execution scene, but it's possible that Jaime is changed by his. We know Ned is bothered by dreams, begins to doubt what is a dream, a memory and what is currently happening. Jaime perhaps is changed from his captivity for the better. Aerys might have been changed for the worse. Cregan Karstark also comes to mind, being held in the ice cells, and he started to howl at the moon and throw his feces at people, and becomes almost wild trying to attack people. I just think it's possible that Aerys captivity brought out something that might have always stayed buried, or perhaps it just sped up the development of it. Or created it!

There seems to be a lot of attention paid to Jon's paternity. Maybe that is natural, since the Starks are well known, but maybe it has some particular importance.

But it's odd to me that a Mormont should bless a Stark with a direwolf symbol, not a Stark. It would not surprise me if we come to find out that sword that Jeor gave Jon never belonged to the Mormonts. I don't think Jorah ever thinks about that sword, as it being something he lost. Why wouldn't Maege or one of her daughters keep and use that sword, since the majority of them are warriors? And Jeor has a sword he just forgets about for five years? Something is odd about the whole thing.

The other bit that I have a hard time explaining is Ned's observation that it was three against seven, which strongly implies opposition. To see how I explain that one away, we will have to wait until I find a more fully formed theory of what they were doing and why

Keep working on the concept and the reasoning might become clear to you at some point. I hold some of my pet theories very close, and always have them simmering on the back burner of my mind!

Do we know much about the relationship between Myrcella and Tommen. It's probably not Jaime and Cersei, but did they even spend much time together?

I think they get along okay, and not in the way that Jaime and Cersei get along, but I suppose separation from each other could cause some kind of rift between them, especially if they have people whispering in their ears, helping line them up against one another.

Feudal inheritance is complicated. In our country (at least most states), a child who is acknowledged by the husband of the mother is the legal child and remains so even if biology says otherwise. However, there are a lot of exceptions. And, even if the legal status doesn't change, DNA can change attitudes and muddy relationships. I'm not sure what the law would say about the situation if the queen's son, who was long acknowledges by the king, was proved not the king's. I'm guessing there isn't a clear answer.

I agree it would be complicated in that world, as it is in our own. In the end, Robert never had the change to refute them publicly, and that might have been the only step that could have changed anything.

I think we have some evidence to that effect. I'm mostly thinking of evidence by omission. Nearly everyone seems to admire Rhaegar, but we don't have a good reason for that admiration.
Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I’ve ever known in my life.’ If you're not familiar with the original Manchurian Candidate movie, those exact words are said by multiple acquaintances of Raymond, but when you explore their actual thoughts, they think he is a jerk. They were taken captive and brain-washed. But if you substitute Rhaegar for Raymond, it causes me to wonder why people think he is so great and has someone been tinkering with minds? (The movie is very creepy and while I just spoiled on plot point, it is well worth watching).

I haven't seen the movie, but I might add it to my list. It would not surprise me if something like that was going on with Rhaegar. Too good to be true, is how he always feels to me! Prince Silverstring!

I think Tywin would have been happy if Jaime took the throne, only if he could hold it long term. But Tywin's had KL, he didn't have to let Ned in, or he probably could have slaughtered them in as they entered. I think he took it to show his loyalty to the new regime by surrendering it. I think that is easiest conclusion from what we are given, so I do agree that we should consider alternate possibilities

I really think that during the sack, there was not time for Tywin's men to secure the city and lock it down, before Ned's men arrived. I think if he had the time, the gates would have been locked tight against Robert's and Ned's men. I just think in Tywin's rush to take the city and reach the Red Keep, along with his men's behavior during the Sack, there wasn't time to organize the troops and shut things down in time.

Tywin, or Jaime, might have expected Ned to claim the throne for himself. I'm not sure how that would work out, but Cersei seems to think he could have. Maybe Tywin wanted to make sure (somehow) that Ned didn't do that. I can't get any farther with that because the thought that Ned could have claimed the throne after Robert's Rebellion conquered seems really strange. But Cersei had something in mind.
Tywin took KL, put up Lannister banners, sacked the city, then surrendered it. I find two of those things inexplicable.

I don't think anything Tywin did caused Ned not to claim the throne. Ned didn't do something like that because it's not in his nature. He doesn't want the throne, he is loyal and supportive of Robert and Jon Arryn. Tywin is actually lucky that Robert got the throne, because then he still was free to marry Cersei, as Ned would already be a married man and Cersei would have not been Ned's queen. And Cat was already on the way to producing Ned's heir, so there would have been great difficulty in setting her and Robb aside. Perhaps Tywin did in some way orchestrate Ned refusing the throne, but I see no evidence for that.

And yes, the fact that Tywin did take the time to order Lannister banners hung in the city, BUT didn't lock the city down, is really inexcusable on his part. It was a half-assed attempt to claim the city, and half-assed usually back fires. By the time that Ned had arrived with troops, I don't think Tywin had the manpower to organize a fight against Ned. And Robert and the rest of the army wasn't that far behind Ned. So, I think Tywin lost his opportunity, and when Jaime backed away from the throne, Tywin lost a level of motivation.

The fact that Barristan does agree to serve Robert is interesting, as is the fact that Robert wants him. Yes, he is a noted and formidable warrior, but he spent his life until the end of RR serving Targs. He might continue to do that and work to undermine Robert, or to assassinate him. Maybe there is more to it than what we are given, but Robert's claim to legitimacy seems really thin to me.

I am not sure that either Barristan or Jaime really had a choice. We have no examples before this of a kingsguard getting out of vows to serve the king. And it's not to a specific king, it's the "the king", whom ever that might be. I think the only other choice was death. It might have meant that Robert had to execute the two kingsguard left alive, but he chose forgiveness and pardon, which is a theme we see with Robert several times over. Of course, Robert has a bit of a shifty and shitty kingsguard, so there might be something going on with those choices as well. Especially if such as Mandon Moore was chosen by Robert and Jon Arryn, but not really liked or admired by Robert or Jon Arryn. It's a bit of a puzzle!

Even if Sansa has some magical sight, that doesn't mean she sees everything. And, even if the information was there, even adults sometimes ignore the truth that is in front of them to indulge some wish or belief

Very true!

I don't think his body was found. And it is interesting that it seems to be known that he drowned but the circumstances are not. How does that happen?

I suppose this comes from Podrick Payne's accounts of the battle. Tyrion was gravely injured and all that information about Mandon Moore's death was relayed while Tyrion was unconscious after the battle. So, either Podrick's account or some one else's eye witness account. Or there was a body that turned up, but we are never told about that.

I think I was actually conflating those two towers to make one that was fully fallen when the story began.

Well, the wording of Ned's dream is odd. And the fact that both the First Keep and Broken Tower at Winterfell are abandoned, and one has some serious damage from a lightening strike makes me think it's probably that one, but then the fact that in regards to the weirwood tree's and dreams, time is a bit relative, so it could include the First Keep, which later loses a whole side, is interesting. It's quite possible that neither of these towers is what Ned was referring to in his dreams, but I can't close them out completely. BUT IF the tower needs to involve Lyanna AND three kingsguard, it get's cloudier. Also the Bael Tale includes the Stark maid hiding out in Winterfell, (in the crypts, not a tower, and giving birth) also seems to tie to all of this, but that might be meant to be misleading.
:dunno

I just started my first read of A Knight of Seven Kingdoms. I not reading closely, just enjoying the stories, but it is interesting to see how some of the same themes, and some echoes, are take different shapes

I hope you enjoy it. I found those books to be light reading, and quite enjoyable. I have only read them each once, but you are correct that there are themes that are repeated from the main story, and I certainly find that interesting. Again, it makes me think in terms of parallels and echoes, which is really how I think GRRM is writing this story.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

stdaga
Vhagar

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(f)Dany Dec 5, 2020 17:01:22 GMT

Quote

Post by stdaga on Dec 5, 2020 17:01:22 GMT

Hello hedebyhedge

Not sure if this idea has been put forward idea, but has anyone explored whether Daenerys may be supposedly the green-haired daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh?

I do think this idea has had some discussion, but it's not my area of expertise at all. Perhaps markg171 , shymaid , Wraith , elifsu , arrysfleas ???

The irony being that Quentyn would in fact be trying to court who Doran says is the "green-haired daughter". She probably isn't really the Archon's daughter, and she may have not been actually raised in Tyrosh, before moving to Dorne.

But this may explain, or at least hint, at Daenerys' supposed Tyroshi accent

The merchant must have taken her for Dothraki, with her clothes and her oiled hair and
sun-browned skin. When she spoke, he gaped at her in astonishment. “My lady, you
are . . . Tyroshi? Can it be so?”

“My speech may be Tyroshi, and my garb Dothraki, but I am of Westeros, of the Sunset
Kingdoms,” Dany told him.

and the lemon tree being in Dorne (still Dorne since it is a more idyllic place than Tyrosh, especially near the Water Gardens)

and how the Martells have a hold of Daenerys is she was born in Dorne, whether from Ashara or Lyanna.

It may seem strange that the green-haired girl is playing with Arianne and Nym, who are around 8 years older. Then again from Arianne's quote, it seems like she knew of a green-haired girl, and not her specific name, pointing to her being in the Water Gardens for only a fleeting time. The game she is playing, riding each other, seems like something Daenerys, a girl who is probably only 4 years old could be doing.

I agree it would be ironic if Dany turned out to be a representative for the green-haired daughter of Tyrosh, in regards to Quentyn's courting of her. I wonder about Dany's associations with the color green? Dany has a green egg and later dragon, she strongly associates with the green grass of the Dothraki Sea. In Meereen, she has several interactions with the Green Grace and other temple workers dressed in green, Jorah Mormont is her shadow and he often is dressed in his green tunic, she is bathed in green light when she buys the Unsullied in Astapor, she wears green pearled slippers in Meereen, although they pinch her feet. In Qarth, she dresses in green and has a chamber with green marble. In the market of Vaes Dothrak, she notes someone haggling over the cost of green dye, although that merchant is said to be Pentoshi, so not related to Tyrosh directly. Green has several associations in Dany's story, and those are perhaps clues for us to pay attention to.

As to Arianne's age, I think there could be some falsehoods that have been hidden about Arianne's true identity, but I am not sure that age really matters in the water gardens. It seems like children of all ages are welcome there, and class distinctions and cultural differences don't seem to bother anyone. So I doubt age would separate children as playmates.

Last Edit: Dec 9, 2020 15:55:59 GMT by stdaga: spelling, yikes!

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

danl
Catelyn Tully

Posts: 642

(f)Dany Dec 5, 2020 20:22:29 GMT stdaga likes this

Quote

Post by danl on Dec 5, 2020 20:22:29 GMT

I just think it's possible that Aerys captivity brought out something that might have always stayed buried, or perhaps it just sped up the development of it. Or created it!

Yes, spending a period in darkness is something that happens to several of our POVs. And we don't know if something was done to Aerys in addition to the effects of dark.

But it's odd to me that a Mormont should bless a Stark with a direwolf symbol, not a Stark.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. But there is some oddness about making it into a Stark sword to give to Snow.

It would not surprise me if we come to find out that sword that Jeor gave Jon never belonged to the Mormonts. I don't think Jorah ever thinks about that sword, as it being something he lost. Why wouldn't Maege or one of her daughters keep and use that sword, since the majority of them are warriors? And Jeor has a sword he just forgets about for five years? Something is odd about the whole thing.

I think we have a go-around or two about the oddities around that sword being in Mormont's possession. But I don't think it had occurred to me that Mormont's story about it might be a complete fiction. I can't come up with anything more likely, though.

I think they get along okay, and not in the way that Jaime and Cersei get along, but I suppose separation from each other could cause some kind of rift between them, especially if they have people whispering in their ears, helping line them up against one another.

Even if there is no hostility between them, if there isn't much feeling at all, that would make betrayal easier.

I agree it would be complicated in that world, as it is in our own. In the end, Robert never had the change to refute them publicly, and that might have been the only step that could have changed anything.

I have wondered, though. Surely it had occurred to Robert to question whether his children should have black hair. He knew that he had few chances to impregnate her. He probably knew that his Baratheon brothers and cousins had black-haired children. He may have suspected that he was a cuckold. But he was too defeated to do anything about it

I don't think anything Tywin did caused Ned not to claim the throne. Ned didn't do something like that because it's not in his nature

No, I don't think Ned would have claimed the throne. But Tywin might not have been confident of that. And, I'm trying to explore any possibility for what Tywin was doing, maybe trying to keep Ned off of the throne, or maybe trying to put him on the throne

And yes, the fact that Tywin did take the time to order Lannister banners hung in the city, BUT didn't lock the city down, is really inexcusable on his part. It was a half-assed attempt to claim the city, and half-assed usually back fires.

That just doesn't seem to be Tywin's style. He doesn't half-ass things, especially such a high reward play as capturing KL. I think he didn't secure the gates because he didn't want to hold it.
I think Tywin put the Lannister banners up because he wanted to sack of KL to be attributed to him. But I think there was a reason for that sack that we haven't figured out. The gates of KL were opened willingly; the city shouldn't have been sacked. I think the sack is a huge clue that something is going on that we don't understand.
It seems that putting Lannister banners up and sacking the city was more important than securing the gates, or capturing the king (unless Jamie was part of Tywin's plan).

Of course, Robert has a bit of a shifty and shitty kingsguard, so there might be something going on with those choices as well. Especially if such as Mandon Moore was chosen by Robert and Jon Arryn, but not really liked or admired by Robert or Jon Arryn. It's a bit of a puzzle!

Early on, I get the impression that the KG has become shitty bc Cersei has influence over Robert and gets him to put her favorites on. But Mandon isn't one of hers. JA no doubt influenced that decision, but why? Maybe Littlefinger incited Lysa to make it happen, but even that seems unlikely that Lysa could have influence over KG decisions. But that would explain who got Mandon to kill Tyrion. And it may be that Robert and JA didn't like Mandon but still considered him to be good KG material.

I suppose this comes from Podrick Payne's accounts of the battle. Tyrion was gravely injured and all that information about Mandon Moore's death was relayed while Tyrion was unconscious after the battle. So, either Podrick's account or some one else's eye witness account. Or there was a body that turned up, but we are never told about that.

If Pod's account was the operative one, I would think it would be known that Mandon tried to kill Tyrion. It may make most sense to think his body was found.

Also the Bael Tale includes the Stark maid hiding out in Winterfell, (in the crypts, not a tower, and giving birth) also seems to tie to all of this, but that might be meant to be misleading.

I'm thinking I remember that there was access to the crypts through a tower. If Lyanna's tower was in WF, it might be that one

I hope you enjoy it. I found those books to be light reading, and quite enjoyable.

I am greatly enjoying it. Definitely a lighter, easier read, but with enough complexity and darkness to keep it interesting

Again, it makes me think in terms of parallels and echoes, which is really how I think GRRM is writing this story.

The echoes are delightful. And there are a few things that I think might be hints about the key backstory of ASOIAF. The thing it most makes me ponder in reference to ASOIAF is the relationship between Egg and BR.

danl
Catelyn Tully

Posts: 642

(f)Dany Dec 5, 2020 20:51:35 GMT

Quote

Post by danl on Dec 5, 2020 20:51:35 GMT

Welcome hedebyhedge, stdaga, and I have completely derailed this thread. Maybe you can wrestle us back on topic

Not sure if this idea has been put forward idea, but has anyone explored whether Daenerys may be supposedly the green-haired daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh?

If I have considered the idea, I don't remember it. But it's intriguing

The irony being that Quentyn would in fact be trying to court who Doran says is the "green-haired daughter".

It would be an interesting irony. Do you have any textual reason to think the green-haired girl might not be the Archon's daughter?
But I think green hair would be a good cover. And I think surrounded by green, violet eyes might not be as noticeably violet.

But this may explain, or at least hint, at Daenerys' supposed Tyroshi accent

My initial thought is that the merchant is simply wrong about the accent, but Dany does not seem puzzled by the mistake, and seems to say, 'yes, her speech is Tyroshi.'
But if she was at the watergardens in her early years, when does she pick up that Tyroshi accent?

It may seem strange that the green-haired girl is playing with Arianne and Nym, who are around 8 years older. Then again from Arianne's quote, it seems like she knew of a green-haired girl, and not her specific name, pointing to her being in the Water Gardens for only a fleeting time. The game she is playing, riding each other, seems like something Daenerys, a girl who is probably only 4 years old could be doing.

It seems that the green-haired girl is really good at the game, which would be odd with a big age difference. However, when I was young, we played a game in water that sounds like it may be the one they played. It is played in teams of two with one person riding on the back of their teammate. The last team standing wins.
Obviously, there is some advantage in size and strength. But there is also an advantage in having a lighter top person. And a really agile and light person on top could be a winning combination. Generally, a four-year old is a bit young to have to agility and coordination needed to play really well, but sometimes a child that young can be a real monkey, so I can imagine one who would be really good at staying up and at avoiding the shoves and grabs of other players.
I'm not convinced, but I think I like where you're going

stdaga
Vhagar

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(f)Dany Dec 7, 2020 17:37:28 GMT danl likes this

Quote

Post by stdaga on Dec 7, 2020 17:37:28 GMT

Yes, spending a period in darkness is something that happens to several of our POVs. And we don't know if something was done to Aerys in addition to the effects of dark.

I did a little more quick reading, and when Aerys was first taken, he was roughed up a bit, struck and had his beard pulled, which was probably more insulting that painful. It's hard to say if more was done to him in captivity, but that would be pretty stupid on Darklyn's part, since the man was hoping to still get good terms for a trade and tax agreement. But Aerys was a captive for about six months, and anything can twist your mind at that length of time. And according to Barristan, Aerys already showed some signs of madness and cruelty. I was also reminded that after this incident, Aerys was very suspicious that Rhaegar and Tywin were consorting to take Aerys' throne, and Rhaegar's marriage to Cersei was part of the deal. What happened in Duskendale that convinced Aerys of such a plot? Dreams in the darkness? Whispered words from Varys after the ordeal was done? Something that he overheard or was told?

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. But there is some oddness about making it into a Stark sword to give to Snow.

I just think it's odd that a Bear would bless a Stark bastard with a Direwolf. And it might mean nothing, but Jon had already taken his vows, so Mormont could have picked a crow as an emblem on that sword. But instead he uses a direwolf. Of course, it's a replica of Ghost, who is Jon's companion, but it still strikes me as odd. Perhaps Mormont thought it was an honor that Lord Eddard would hear of and appreciate. But Mormont doesn't strike me as an ass kisser, so it doesn't seem like Ned's opinion would have mattered in the choice. At the same time, it's no secret on the wall that Jon is Lord Eddard's bastard and of Stark blood, so perhaps choosing the direwolf for the sword is no real mystery. But Jeor talks about how it's a sword passed from father to son, almost implying that is what should continue, yet giving it to Jon of the Night's Watch, should hint for no son's for Jon Snow. Then what happens to the sword?

I think we have a go-around or two about the oddities around that sword being in Mormont's possession. But I don't think it had occurred to me that Mormont's story about it might be a complete fiction. I can't come up with anything more likely, though.

Mormont doesn't really strike me as a liar, but the sword's origin story seems odd to me. No other Mormont seems to mention it, not Jorah, not Maedge or her daughters. It's Valyrian steel for heck's sake, and that is a prized weapon just to be left moldering in the darkness of a tower. Forgotten! Things just don't flow together that smoothly if you as me. And Jeor must have spent a bit of money to rehab the sword. I am not sure what the stone is that the hilt is carved from (besides being white) but it has garnets placed in it, and that's a precious stone that can't be cheap.

Jeor's story does sound like it makes sense for the most part until you question that no other family member of his corroborates the sword's existence.

But if it's not the Mormont sword, then what sword is it. Longclaw is noted to be a bastard sword, a hand and a half, with a blade length somewhere between the length of a long sword and and great sword. There are two missing Targaryen blades. Dark Sister is said to be a longsword, so should be smaller than Longclaw. Blackfyre used to be listed as a great sword, but in recent years, the wiki has been updated to list it as a hand and a half blade, like Longclaw (but there is no textual evidence to support this). Dark Sister makes more sense, since we know Bloodraven took it to the wall, but the blade is the wrong size. Blackfyre seems to be the right size, but that sword was last seen in Essos, not at the wall. And to me, that really only fits Jon's story if he is Targaryen, and I still think he is not.

It's also possible that Longclaw is neither a Targaryen blade or the Mormont blade that Jeor talks of. But then what sword is it? And there is interesting thoughts that Jon has when he is gifted with Longclaw that while he should be pleased, it is not Ice and therefore not "his father's" sword. Of course, Mormont makes a point of saying this was his father's sword and his fathers before him and that he had already had given in to his son Jorah at one time, so the idea of it being a "father's sword" isn't completely out of the blue, but I have tinfoil questioned before if there is any way that either Jeor or Jorah could be Jon's father. It's hard to say when Jeor actually went to the wall, or if he could have had contact with Lyanna. Jorah seems a stretch as well, although Ned doesn't like him at all, and getting his young sister pregnant could be a reason for the dislike, but that seems a stretch as well. But if I find out some day that Lyanna was blond, then should could fit Jorah's type, such as Daenerys, Lynesse, or that silver haired prostitute in Volantis, then I will be close to convinced that Jorah is Jon's bio-father. Sorry for that little rabbit hole!

I have wondered, though. Surely it had occurred to Robert to question whether his children should have black hair. He knew that he had few chances to impregnate her. He probably knew that his Baratheon brothers and cousins had black-haired children. He may have suspected that he was a cuckold. But he was too defeated to do anything about it

I think it's implied that Robert was in her bed enough for him to think it was possible. Cersei even admits to at least one pregnancy by Robert that she had ended. And Robert might know from his history with prostitutes that it really only takes a time or two to create a child. His seed seems to be virile. And Cersei would be smart enough to know that if she was already pregnant or possibly pregnant, she would need to sleep with Robert at least once, in a manner of fooling him. I agree that Robert should have questioned why all three of his children were blond when they could have been black haired, but besides Mya and Edric Storm, I am not sure he really ever seen any of his other bastards, and the only niece he has is Shireen, and while I suspect her hair is black, the color is never confirmed in the text, at least that I have seen. She certainly has the Baratheon blue eyes, and that is something that is also missing from any of Robert's children by Cersei. There were reason for him to be a bit suspicious, but I don't think it's all that obvious. Sometimes, children look much more like one parent than another.

No, I don't think Ned would have claimed the throne. But Tywin might not have been confident of that. And, I'm trying to explore any possibility for what Tywin was doing, maybe trying to keep Ned off of the throne, or maybe trying to put him on the throne

Exploring options can certainly be fruitful. All I think of with Tywin and Ned is how Tywin tells Tyrion he was trying to beat Eddard to the city, and that makes me think that his plans for the city did not involve Eddard Stark. Perhaps that information comes from the show and I should take it was a grain of salt, I can't seem to find that in the text right now.

That just doesn't seem to be Tywin's style. He doesn't half-ass things, especially such a high reward play as capturing KL. I think he didn't secure the gates because he didn't want to hold it.
I think Tywin put the Lannister banners up because he wanted to sack of KL to be attributed to him. But I think there was a reason for that sack that we haven't figured out. The gates of KL were opened willingly; the city shouldn't have been sacked. I think the sack is a huge clue that something is going on that we don't understand.
It seems that putting Lannister banners up and sacking the city was more important than securing the gates, or capturing the king (unless Jamie was part of Tywin's plan).

I don't really understand the reason for allowing the sack either, because it was a peaceful city and in the end Tywin made himself hated by the people of Kings Landing. But if he was trying to cause chaos and disorganization in the city, then it worked fabulously. It gave Jaime time to kill Aerys, and himself time to organize the deaths of Elia and her children. I think Tywin knew what he was doing, and weighed the risks and went forward with the sack to cover up other things, or at least give them time to develop in the chaos.

Early on, I get the impression that the KG has become shitty bc Cersei has influence over Robert and gets him to put her favorites on. But Mandon isn't one of hers. JA no doubt influenced that decision, but why? Maybe Littlefinger incited Lysa to make it happen, but even that seems unlikely that Lysa could have influence over KG decisions. But that would explain who got Mandon to kill Tyrion. And it may be that Robert and JA didn't like Mandon but still considered him to be good KG material.

I have never tied Mandon Moore's actions to anyone but Cersei, but certainly Lysa would have reason to want Tyrion dead. But the odds that Lysa could get that information to Moore are hard to follow, unless it was Littlefinger who gave the order. He also might want Tyrion gone from the picture. Littlefinger, Lysa, Moore, all from the Vale, could be plotting together?

As to why Robert tolerated him, well if Mandon Moore was a good knight and could protect Robert, then that might have been all that Robert cared about. Not that Robert seemed to worry much about being attacked or murdered.

If Pod's account was the operative one, I would think it would be known that Mandon tried to kill Tyrion. It may make most sense to think his body was found.

I think that someone probably cautioned Podrick not to say too much, and certainly talk about how a kingsguard tried to kill the King's uncle. So who would that be? Littlefinger? Varys? Bronn? It does raise an interesting series of events though, if someone did caution Podrick not to reveal the truth, since we know it wasn't Tyrion.

I'm thinking I remember that there was access to the crypts through a tower. If Lyanna's tower was in WF, it might be that one

I think the entrance to the crypts is from the outside, but it could be outside one of those towers. When Bran and Co have to push their way out, it seems like the doors open after getting fallen stone out of the way, and daylight shines down on them. I think the part of the First Keep that fell is what blocked the door, but they are outside looking into the rubble of the First Keep, so I think the entrance to the crypts is outside. The First Keep and the Broken Tower are close enough that Bran can cross from one to another while climbing, so an outside entrance from either of those towers makes sense. It's also near the lichyard.

But the First Keep is noted for it's gargoyles and where Bran spied Jaime and Cersei having sex. The Broken Tower is said to have been struck by lightening and has been abandoned for years and years, except for ratters that get sent in every now and then. Could either of them be Lyanna's tower. I think it's possible.

I am greatly enjoying it. Definitely a lighter, easier read, but with enough complexity and darkness to keep it interesting

I enjoyed them. Still in the world but quite a bit lighter in tone. But there are certainly parallel's in play.

The echoes are delightful. And there are a few things that I think might be hints about the key backstory of ASOIAF. The thing it most makes me ponder in reference to ASOIAF is the relationship between Egg and BR.

Yes, there are definite connections that we should pay attention to. It's interesting to see Egg as a child and know he grew up to become a king, a king who then perished in the great fire at Summerhall. I hope we get more Dunk and Egg stories to piece things together, but I would prefer a conclusion to the main story first. And I don't know if that will ever happen, but I think GRRM has said that if he does more Dunk and Egg first, it will reveal too much about the plot of ASOIAF. I have no idea where I heard that, but I think it was when he was potentially talking about "the she-wolves of Winterfell", which is supposed to be another Dunk and Egg story.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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(f)Dany Dec 7, 2020 19:58:36 GMT

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Post by danl on Dec 7, 2020 19:58:36 GMT

I did a little more quick reading, and when Aerys was first taken, he was roughed up a bit, struck and had his beard pulled, which was probably more insulting that painful. It's hard to say if more was done to him in captivity, but that would be pretty stupid on Darklyn's part, since the man was hoping to still get good terms for a trade and tax agreement.

I've wondered if there was a more gentle form of the Theon treatment, some sort of darkness, isolation, and attempted breakdown of the personality. It just doesn't make sense at all to kidnap the king in the hope of improving the tax and trade situation. There had to be something else

I just think it's odd that a Bear would bless a Stark bastard with a Direwolf. And it might mean nothing, but Jon had already taken his vows, so Mormont could have picked a crow as an emblem on that sword. But instead he uses a direwolf.

It is definitely odd. And if that direwolf is simply to signify Ghost, rather than Stark, is the next owner to remake the pommel again? This sword should be around generations later and will probably still be valued long after Ghost is forgotten. Even if he has Ghost in mind, in a couple generations it will be seen as the Stark direwolf, and that has to be obvious.
I think he wants to make sure someone in the North (maybe Craster, maybe the Free Folk) notices that Jon is a Stark. I'm not sure why

But Jeor talks about how it's a sword passed from father to son, almost implying that is what should continue, yet giving it to Jon of the Night's Watch, should hint for no son's for Jon Snow. Then what happens to the sword?

He has definitely transformed that sword. And his explanation makes sense only in the short term. An ancestral sword shouldn't be thought of in terms of one person and Mormont's explanations just work as if the remade sword is for Jon and no one after. For that matter, my theory really just works to explain the sword in Jon's hand and no one after

I am not sure what the stone is that the hilt is carved from (besides being white) but it has garnets placed in it, and that's a precious stone that can't be cheap.

He has definitely put a lot into it. Could he know about Ice being broken and be trying to replace it? Just having read the mystery knight, I'm thinking of the bastard son being given the sword.

Dark Sister is said to be a longsword, so should be smaller than Longclaw.

Was BR the last person in possession of Dark Sister, as far as we know?

Blackfyre seems to be the right size, but that sword was last seen in Essos, not at the wall. And to me, that really only fits Jon's story if he is Targaryen, and I still think he is not.

Agreed, in both respects. Although it is a bastard sword given to a bastard son, but yes, it still should be a Targ bastard

And there is interesting thoughts that Jon has when he is gifted with Longclaw that while he should be pleased, it is not Ice and therefore not "his father's" sword. Of course, Mormont makes a point of saying this was his father's sword and his fathers before him and that he had already had given in to his son Jorah at one time, so the idea of it being a "father's sword" isn't completely out of the blue, but I have tinfoil questioned before if there is any way that either Jeor or Jorah could be Jon's father.

There is definitely a father to son vibe surrounding this. And there is some paternal aspect to Jeor and Jon's relationship. But he seems like an unlikely father.
Now I can't remember what happened to the original Stark sword. I know there are theories that it is now Dawn, but could it be the sword Mormont had? That would make Jon's thoughts delightfully ironic

I think it's implied that Robert was in her bed enough for him to think it was possible. Cersei even admits to at least one pregnancy by Robert that she had ended

Yes, he got her pregnant once, but it seems that she rarely gave him the opportunity.

She lifted her head, defiant. "Your Robert got me with child once," she said, her voice thick with contempt. "My brother found a woman to cleanse me. He never knew. If truth be told, I can scarcely bear for him to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years. I know other ways to pleasure him, when he leaves his whores long enough to stagger up to my bedchamber. Whatever we do, the king is usually so drunk that he's forgotten it all by the next morning."

She thinks he doesn't remember in the morning, but he does:

Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold … the way she guards her cunt, you'd think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs.

Obviously, that isn't enough to seal the case, and there were no doubt some other opportunities for a pregnancy to result, but seemingly not many. And when you put that together with all blond children, if Robert didn't suspect something, he was willfully blind

Exploring options can certainly be fruitful. All I think of with Tywin and Ned is how Tywin tells Tyrion he was trying to beat Eddard to the city, and that makes me think that his plans for the city did not involve Eddard Stark. Perhaps that information comes from the show and I should take it was a grain of salt, I can't seem to find that in the text right now.

Well, I have been assuming that Tywin and Jamie though Robert would lead the army marching on KL (not knowing of Robert's injury). If that quote is in the text, then I can drop that out of anything forming in my head

I think Tywin knew what he was doing, and weighed the risks and went forward with the sack to cover up other things, or at least give them time to develop in the chaos.

Agreed, but for what purpose? Sacking the city had huge costs. Maybe it was a cover for some sort of search?

I have never tied Mandon Moore's actions to anyone but Cersei, but certainly Lysa would have reason to want Tyrion dead. But the odds that Lysa could get that information to Moore are hard to follow, unless it was Littlefinger who gave the order. He also might want Tyrion gone from the picture. Littlefinger, Lysa, Moore, all from the Vale, could be plotting together?

If Lysa was the motivating force in getting Mandon on the KG, I assume she was advised by LF and that Mandon was LF's man, not Lysa's.

As to why Robert tolerated him, well if Mandon Moore was a good knight and could protect Robert, then that might have been all that Robert cared about. Not that Robert seemed to worry much about being attacked or murdered.

I'm not sure Robert really cared. If Cersei or JA pushed to have someone on the KG, Robert would probably agree to it.

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(f)Dany Dec 9, 2020 2:04:18 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Dec 9, 2020 2:04:18 GMT

stdaga, and I have completely derailed this thread. Maybe you can wrestle us back on topic

This is certainly the truth! Although we get back to Dany pretty often!

I've wondered if there was a more gentle form of the Theon treatment, some sort of darkness, isolation, and attempted breakdown of the personality. It just doesn't make sense at all to kidnap the king in the hope of improving the tax and trade situation. There had to be something else

Well, from Darklyn's POV, it was a terrible plan. What did he hope to gain after he had kidnapped the king for goodness sake? There is no forgiveness for that kind of action. And he didn't surrender as long as he had Aerys, but the moment that Barristan had Aerys out of there, Darklyn surrendered because he didn't have a hostage. At that point, you might as well stay locked up. I guess he might have saved the majority of his people, but his family was destroyed. Terrible, terrible plan, but people carry on with poor plans all of the time. It still would not surprise me if someone set up Darklyn and let him take the fall for a much bigger plan.

I think he wants to make sure someone in the North (maybe Craster, maybe the Free Folk) notices that Jon is a Stark. I'm not sure why

At that point, I am not sure that Mormont had even thought that Jon would end up north of the wall, interacting with Craster or any other wildlings. Perhaps it all comes down to GRRM wanting Jon to have this sword and Mormont was available to give it to him. For the most part, I think GRRM's plotting is pretty deep, but sometimes I wonder if we give him deep credit for simple decisions that he really didn't think out that far.

He has definitely transformed that sword. And his explanation makes sense only in the short term. An ancestral sword shouldn't be thought of in terms of one person and Mormont's explanations just work as if the remade sword is for Jon and no one after. For that matter, my theory really just works to explain the sword in Jon's hand and no one after

Exactly. That sword could grace the hand of Mormont's for generations to come, yet Jeor just gives it away! And we know Valyrian steel is valuable, since Tywin has been unable to even buy one for years and years, and yet the Mormonts, who are considered a poorer family in Westeros, just have an expensive sword given away. It really lacks logic, which is why we look for extra meanings behind the gift, I suppose.

Goodness, I had to leave in the middle of my response and am super happy that my responses are still here!

He has definitely put a lot into it. Could he know about Ice being broken and be trying to replace it? Just having read the mystery knight, I'm thinking of the bastard son being given the sword.

Ice wasn't broken yet. Ned was still alive, and he was killed by his own sword. I think it was sometime in Clash that Sansa noted that Ilyn Payne no longer had Ice. He had been given a new sword in replacement. I assume it was after Tywin came to King's Landing that it was decided that Ice would be reforged.

Was BR the last person in possession of Dark Sister, as far as we know?

Yes, I think so. It might have been in an SSM that GRRM confirmed that Bloodraven took the sword with him to the wall. Which I actually always thought was odd, since he probably should have left it behind for another Targaryen to have, but he didn't.

Agreed, in both respects. Although it is a bastard sword given to a bastard son, but yes, it still should be a Targ bastard

Well, I think it's a retcon that Blackfyre was a bastard size sword. When I first came to these boards, probably back in 2012 or 2013, Blackfyre was supposed to be a great sword. It was listed on the wiki as such and the wiki has since been edited. But certainly Jon does think that about Longclaw, a bastard sword for a bastard.

There is definitely a father to son vibe surrounding this. And there is some paternal aspect to Jeor and Jon's relationship. But he seems like an unlikely father.
Now I can't remember what happened to the original Stark sword. I know there are theories that it is now Dawn, but could it be the sword Mormont had? That would make Jon's thoughts delightfully ironic

I have speculated that the Mormont sword could have been the Stark family sword before it was given to the Mormonts, and the Stark's gained Ice. Or the Stark's had two? But it does seem a bit odd that both are Valyrian steel. That is a pretty damn nice sword that the Stark's gave the Mormont's, either way, if that is how they got the sword. I think the original Stark sword is much older, though. It very well might be Dawn, or it might have been a sister blade to Dawn, something very similar, in the vein of Mournblade and Stormbringer, from the Elric of Melnibone stories.

Anyway, I don't think we know how the Mormont's got Longclaw or how long they had it. And there is definitely a paternal vibe with Jeor and Jon, both in training as well as in the gift of the sword, but I am not sure that has to mean a genetic connection. But it might.

Yes, he got her pregnant once, but it seems that she rarely gave him the opportunity.

She lifted her head, defiant. "Your Robert got me with child once," she said, her voice thick with contempt. "My brother found a woman to cleanse me. He never knew. If truth be told, I can scarcely bear for him to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years. I know other ways to pleasure him, when he leaves his whores long enough to stagger up to my bedchamber. Whatever we do, the king is usually so drunk that he's forgotten it all by the next morning."

She thinks he doesn't remember in the morning, but he does:

Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold … the way she guards her cunt, you'd think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs.

Obviously, that isn't enough to seal the case, and there were no doubt some other opportunities for a pregnancy to result, but seemingly not many. And when you put that together with all blond children, if Robert didn't suspect something, he was willfully blind

Well, Tommen is 7 at the start of the story, so if Cersei and Robert hadn't shared a bed for seven to eight years, it might feel like a lifetime to Robert. She claims not to have let him inside her for years, but certainly that is not forever. She hasn't been pregnant for seven years, so she had no reason to allow him into her bed. As far as being willfully ignorant, if that applies to Robert, then it has to apply to Tywin, who refuses to think that Cersei did not have her children by anyone by Robert. Or maybe Tywin is just willfully ignorant that Cersei's children are Jaime's children. He is in flat denial about that rumor! But Tywin is much smarter than Robert and he doesn't seem to suspect what Cersei had done.

Well, I have been assuming that Tywin and Jamie though Robert would lead the army marching on KL (not knowing of Robert's injury). If that quote is in the text, then I can drop that out of anything forming in my head

You might be right, but for some reason I think Tywin was aware of Ned being in charge of Robert's vanguard. Perhaps that quote is from the show, and I should not count it. I will try to find it in the text. Or not find it, if it doesn't exist.

Agreed, but for what purpose? Sacking the city had huge costs. Maybe it was a cover for some sort of search?

If he hadn't allowed the chaos of the sack, he might have never had the opportunity for Elia and the children to be killed. Tywin was trying to end the Targaryen lineage, but if it was an organized take over of the city, there is no way those people are murdered. They would be safe until Robert could make a decision. The same could go for Aerys, although I think Aerys would have been executed if Robert could have made the decision. Maybe even by Ned, who would not be afraid to swing the sword in Robert's place. It's also possible it was done to cover something else up. I think we have discussed in the past that Tywin might have been searching for something hidden, or for information.

If Lysa was the motivating force in getting Mandon on the KG, I assume she was advised by LF and that Mandon was LF's man, not Lysa's.

Well, Lysa is pretty much Littlefinger's pawn when Littlefinger has the opportunity, but she is capable of wildly stupid behavior on her own, such as the situation with Tyrion. What did she really hope to gain by killing him? Only a more unsettled kingdom and no way to avoid war with the Lannister's. Any good thoughts she might have had were no doubt seeded by Littlefinger.

I'm not sure Robert really cared. If Cersei or JA pushed to have someone on the KG, Robert would probably agree to it.

That might be so. But I was thinking that Robert and Moore took a dislike to each other after Moore had been named to the Kingsguard and after that it was too late for Robert to do anything about it. Kingsguard serve until life, at least until Barristan Selmy was basically fired (err... retired) from the job! Until then, no one got out of that job alive. Okay, I guess there was Lucamore Strong, but he was gelded and then sent to the wall, and that was an extreme situation. If Jaime and Barristan wanted out of their job after Aerys died, I think those were the options. Death or the wall. Or to serve Robert!

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

danl
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(f)Dany Dec 9, 2020 18:07:38 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by danl on Dec 9, 2020 18:07:38 GMT

As far as being willfully ignorant, if that applies to Robert, then it has to apply to Tywin, who refuses to think that Cersei did not have her children by anyone by Robert. Or maybe Tywin is just willfully ignorant that Cersei's children are Jaime's children. He is in flat denial about that rumor! But Tywin is much smarter than Robert and he doesn't seem to suspect what Cersei had done.

Yes, I think Tywin might be among the willfully ignorant. Tywin does seem to be very intelligent and observant. But intelligence does not always stand in the say of blind spots, particularly when it comes to family

I will try to find it in the text. Or not find it, if it doesn't exist.

Or, considering the way GRRM plays with the thesaurus, not find it, because it is no phrased in a way that you can find.

If he hadn't allowed the chaos of the sack, he might have never had the opportunity for Elia and the children to be killed.

Maybe, but the Red Keep is so well separated from the city proper than I think you could have a chaotic sack of the city and not of the Red Keep or of the Red Keep and not the rest of the city. So I don't think the sack really provides cover for those deaths.
It has occurred to me that there was a lot of dirty work that needed to be done, including Elia and the children but also others throughout the city, and Tywin calculated that Robert would appreciate it if he took the blame for it. If so, those Lannister banners may have been a way to tell the people to blame Tywin for the sack and not Robert. The benefit to Tywin, besides Robert's gratitude, is that people fear him all the more. Tywin does not seem to mind being hated, as long as he is feared

That might be so. But I was thinking that Robert and Moore took a dislike to each other after Moore had been named to the Kingsguard and after that it was too late for Robert to do anything about it.

Possibly. They could have known each other at the Erye but they probably would have become very well acquainted once Mandon was on his KG.

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(f)Dany Dec 10, 2020 19:16:04 GMT danl likes this

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Post by stdaga on Dec 10, 2020 19:16:04 GMT

Or, considering the way GRRM plays with the thesaurus, not find it, because it is no phrased in a way that you can find.

That absolutely happens when I search for stuff. It's different in my mind than in the text, maybe not in meaning, but just enough in words that I struggle to find what I think I am talking about! Ha!

I still haven't tried to search for that passage, either.

It has occurred to me that there was a lot of dirty work that needed to be done, including Elia and the children but also others throughout the city, and Tywin calculated that Robert would appreciate it if he took the blame for it. If so, those Lannister banners may have been a way to tell the people to blame Tywin for the sack and not Robert. The benefit to Tywin, besides Robert's gratitude, is that people fear him all the more. Tywin does not seem to mind being hated, as long as he is feared

The highlighted is a perspective and option that I have never considered before. Interesting idea for sure! And Tywin doesn't seem to mind hate directed at him, you are correct!

Possibly. They could have known each other at the Erye but they probably would have become very well acquainted once Mandon was on his KG.

I had not thought of Mandon Moore serving in the Eyrie but I suppose it's possible, as he is a knight from the Vale. But if he did, then Ned should know him also. I will have to look into Ned's thoughts on Mandon Moore. They don't strike me as very familiar with each other but maybe I just never paid attention. But if Moore and Ned had a dislike of each other for some reason, it might explain why Moore never hesitated to be cruel to Sansa. Moore was not one of the three kingsguard who traveled to Winterfell at the start of the story; those knights were Jaime, Boros Blount and Meryn Trant, so perhaps there could be a reason that Robert chose not to bring more kingsguard north, or to bring Moore instead of the others. Might be a backstory involved with that. As far as I can tell, Mandon Moore never crosses Ned's thoughts at all, and I don't seem to see any interactions between the two men. Moore was in the throne room when Ned was arrested, but he is not mentioned by name or in any action. It's Blount and Trant that Cersei stands behind. Those seem to be her two pawns on the kingsguard, which is probably why those two went north with the Lannister's when Robert visited Winterfell.

Yes, I think Tywin might be among the willfully ignorant. Tywin does seem to be very intelligent and observant. But intelligence does not always stand in the say of blind spots, particularly when it comes to family

As to this, perhaps it's easy for Tywin to ignore because he can't fathom the incest part of the rumor, but he would not need to think incest for him to consider that Cersei had cuckholded Robert. She is able to do it with Lancel as well. There could of been others. Of course, part of the legitimacy of her children is tied to Robert being their father, so no matter who might have planted that seed, it would be best for Tywin to ignore even thinking about it.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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(f)Dany Dec 11, 2020 17:47:47 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by danl on Dec 11, 2020 17:47:47 GMT

Dec 11, 2020 6:48:26 GMT stdaga said:

I had not thought of Mandon Moore serving in the Eyrie but I suppose it's possible, as he is a knight from the Vale. But if he did, then Ned should know him also.

I think to be brought to KL then placed on the King's Landing, it is most likely that Moore somehow distinguished himself with the Lord of the Vale, and that probably means he spent time in the Eyrie. Of course, since the Eyrie is abandoned during Winter, there is more opportunity for a knight who is not at the castle to have to opportunity to be noticed by his lord.
And, going a completely different direction, doesn't it seem a bit odd that a high lord would be hand? In the feudal system, a lord (at least in theory) serves at the behest of the king with a responsibility to manage his territory and people. The North belongs the the king, as does Casterley Rock and the Vale. Tywin, Jon Arryn, and Ned all have heavy responsibilities to rule on behalf of the king; it seems unwise to make any of them hand (unless there is an intention to make someone else responsible for their domains).
I'm sure GRRM is aware of the nature of the feudal courtesains and where they come from. So is his deviation from that a plot convenience or something about governance of his world? I lean toward plot convenience

Dec 11, 2020 6:48:26 GMT stdaga said:

I will have to look into Ned's thoughts on Mandon Moore. They don't strike me as very familiar with each other but maybe I just never paid attention.

No, I don't think they seem to know each other. It does seem unlikely that Robert would know someone from the Vale that Ned didn't, so the dislike may have to do with his service on the KG. Of course, someone stiff and dutiful could have gotten in the way of some intended tryst of Robert's while he was in the Vale

Dec 11, 2020 6:48:26 GMT stdaga said:

As to this, perhaps it's easy for Tywin to ignore because he can't fathom the incest part of the rumor, but he would not need to think incest for him to consider that Cersei had cuckholded Robert. She is able to do it with Lancel as well. There could of been others. Of course, part of the legitimacy of her children is tied to Robert being their father, so no matter who might have planted that seed, it would be best for Tywin to ignore even thinking about it.

Even if Tywin was fully aware, there would be no upside for him to make it known. I think he would have done whatever he could to stop it.

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(f)Dany Dec 14, 2020 19:50:16 GMT danl likes this

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Post by stdaga on Dec 14, 2020 19:50:16 GMT

I think to be brought to KL then placed on the King's Landing, it is most likely that Moore somehow distinguished himself with the Lord of the Vale, and that probably means he spent time in the Eyrie. Of course, since the Eyrie is abandoned during Winter, there is more opportunity for a knight who is not at the castle to have to opportunity to be noticed by his lord.

It's honestly surprising to me that Moore is from the Vale, and I do suspect you are correct that he might be linked to the Arryn's or Littlefinger some how. If he is truly dead, then I am not sure what that might matter, but if he is still alive somehow, he might be able to tattle on Littlefinger and bring him down. There is also the certain oddness of him having dead eyes that is mentioned so often that seem like it's meant to be a clue, but I am not sure about what.

And, going a completely different direction, doesn't it seem a bit odd that a high lord would be hand? In the feudal system, a lord (at least in theory) serves at the behest of the king with a responsibility to manage his territory and people. The North belongs the the king, as does Casterley Rock and the Vale. Tywin, Jon Arryn, and Ned all have heavy responsibilities to rule on behalf of the king; it seems unwise to make any of them hand (unless there is an intention to make someone else responsible for their domains).
I'm sure GRRM is aware of the nature of the feudal courtesains and where they come from. So is his deviation from that a plot convenience or something about governance of his world? I lean toward plot convenience

It does seem a little odd in this world, because as you mention, a Lord should be managing his own lands and people, and not the kings. But someone has to serve in that position, and it also makes sense that it's someone that the king trusts, even if that person is a high lord with his own responsibilities. The position started with Aegon the Conqueror naming Orys Baratheon to that role, and certainly Aegon trusted Orys, and Orys was probably happy to serve in this role to Aegon, and Orys might also have left the management of his own lands to his wife, Argella, who probably rules the stormlands just as good as he ever could. The rest is just people copying this first arrangement. And some of it might be plot convenience for GRRM.

No, I don't think they seem to know each other. It does seem unlikely that Robert would know someone from the Vale that Ned didn't, so the dislike may have to do with his service on the KG. Of course, someone stiff and dutiful could have gotten in the way of some intended tryst of Robert's while he was in the Vale

It might be part of the backstory of Moore that GRRM didn't give much thought to. Because if he was an Arryn appointee and it was near the end of the rebellion, it's hard to imagine that Ned and Robert didn't know the man. After all, Jon Arryn had knights from the Vale in the rebel army, so again, it seems odd that Moore would not know Ned or vice versa. Unless Moore was in Kings Landing during the rebellion, but we have no reason to know what he was doing, or clues to help us out.

Even if Tywin was fully aware, there would be no upside for him to make it known. I think he would have done whatever he could to stop it.

It's to late to stop it, so I can certainly see how he was avoid believing it was true. As a matter of fact, I think on some level he does worry about the rumors, which is why he wants Cersei married off after Robert is dead.

Of course, it seems like Tywin wasn't in Kings Landing for much of Cersei's marriage to Robert, because if he had been, I assume he would have sniffed out the incest of the twins and certainly tried to put a stop to it.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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(f)Dany Dec 15, 2020 2:36:10 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by danl on Dec 15, 2020 2:36:10 GMT

Dec 14, 2020 20:19:32 GMT stdaga said:

It does seem a little odd in this world, because as you mention, a Lord should be managing his own lands and people, and not the kings. But someone has to serve in that position, and it also makes sense that it's someone that the king trusts, even if that person is a high lord with his own responsibilities. The position started with Aegon the Conqueror naming Orys Baratheon to that role, and certainly Aegon trusted Orys, and Orys was probably happy to serve in this role to Aegon, and Orys might also have left the management of his own lands to his wife, Argella, who probably rules the stormlands just as good as he ever could. The rest is just people copying this first arrangement. And some of it might be plot convenience for GRRM.

Bloodraven seems like a good model for a Hand. He was the king's kin, he did the dirty work that the king didn't have to be directly associated with, and he didn't have a domain to rule himself. Tyrion also seems like a sensible hand for the same reason. For alliance reasons, it may make sense to appoint someone from a different family (assuming the trust is there) but not someone with conflicting responsibilities. There is a lot about second sons in ASOIAF -- they are the type that I would choose for hand; they have been trained for rule, but aren't using that training so much.
Now that I think of it, other than Varys and Littlefinger, ASOIAF really doesn't seem to have much of a courtier class. It would definitely complicate things to include that proto-bureaucracy.

Dec 14, 2020 20:19:32 GMT stdaga said:

It might be part of the backstory of Moore that GRRM didn't give much thought to. Because if he was an Arryn appointee and it was near the end of the rebellion, it's hard to imagine that Ned and Robert didn't know the man.

I think there are some hints that GRRM has given thought to MM's back story, though. The Varys comment seem significant. As do all of those odd descriptions of him

Dec 14, 2020 20:19:32 GMT stdaga said:

After all, Jon Arryn had knights from the Vale in the rebel army, so again, it seems odd that Moore would not know Ned or vice versa.

Robert's Rebellion might be the answer to how he distinguished himself in JA's eyes but wasn't known to Ned. He might have become significant to JA as someone with unwavering loyalty and single-minded commitment. That's the sort of thing that gets noticed slowly, from fairly close up, while those who are farther away might never notice him. Maybe JA valued him, and maybe even needed him, but didn't particularly like him.

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(f)Dany Dec 15, 2020 16:37:52 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Dec 15, 2020 16:37:52 GMT

Bloodraven seems like a good model for a Hand. He was the king's kin, he did the dirty work that the king didn't have to be directly associated with, and he didn't have a domain to rule himself. Tyrion also seems like a sensible hand for the same reason. For alliance reasons, it may make sense to appoint someone from a different family (assuming the trust is there) but not someone with conflicting responsibilities. There is a lot about second sons in ASOIAF -- they are the type that I would choose for hand; they have been trained for rule, but aren't using that training so much.

Whether you are a lord in your own right or not, you might still be politically influenced by your family or place you call home, and you might also be able to sway the rule in the area that you come from, whether you are the highest form of governance or not. There are no easy answers. We don't really hear about the governance of the Vale while Jon Arryn is hand, but it wasn't Lysa, since she was also in King's Landing, and the Vale seems to have run pretty smoothly. I think this might come down to GRRM not thinking out things nearly as much as we give him credit for. More and more, I see that is the way of things.

As to Bloodraven, whether he was a high lord or not, he had a political agenda in place. And plenty of power, perhaps more power than the king, with his potential use of magic. Tyrion also has his families interests central to the majority of his decision making.

Now that I think of it, other than Varys and Littlefinger, ASOIAF really doesn't seem to have much of a courtier class. It would definitely complicate things to include that proto-bureaucracy.

I think Littlefinger fits into that category as well. He comes from nothing much, but he has aspirations and he is willing to do about anything politically to improve himself.

I think there are some hints that GRRM has given thought to MM's back story, though. The Varys comment seem significant. As do all of those odd descriptions of him

Too some extent, I would agree. But the complete lack of interaction or thought between him and Ned Stark seems to be odd. It's either purposeful, or a complete plot hole. I agree the odd descriptions of Mandon Moore, most especially his eyes, do make a person wonder what GRRM had planned for him. And if that has been set aside as his plot grew and other areas have seemed to take priority in his story telling.