(f)Dany

Yup. One of the biggest criticisms whenever someone mentions that Dany's a pretender has always been that you can see Theon struggling with his Reek persona, that he bleeds back and forth between them. He knows something was done to him. People always argue that Dany should show that something was equally done to her too but doesn't show this.

Well I hope I showed that seeing as she's fucking wrong about every goddamn aspect of her life lmao. There's clues everywhere in her story that she's wrong about everything, that she's comfortable/uncomfortable in ways that are not to be expected. Dany bleeds over everywhere between who she is and who "Dany" is. She just happens to have spent years as "Dany" and has come to actually think of herself that way. But her mannerisms and memories betray her, just like Theon's do. They both remember a different life.



Well the other thing I'd always noticed is that "Daenerys" also is just Dayne + Aerys. Now of course I don't really believe she's Aerys' kid at all as she's got basically zero connection to him, and hell she doesn't even recognize him in the HOTU yet she recognizes Rhaegar all the time, but I've always found it interesting. I argued in the OP that Elia dismissed Ashara, but Rhaella could've done it too if Aerys slept with her. Though I'm inclined to think that there's no reason Ashara would have ever slept with Aerys (and Aerys took a vow of fidelity in 275 that he apparently kept so his hornier days pre-date Ashara), so that could only be reconciled by rape. But many people do suggest she killed herself over her lover being dead, and I don't see a reason for her to give a shit that Aerys was dead. Nor would he be a prince which the song seems to indicate was her lover.



Well I would first argue that Dany is "at home with the stars" because she remembers a carefree simple life at the house with the red door. Dany was an outdoors girl, who never had a past or future back then, so she revels in the moment when she doesn't have one again either. When Rhaego is declared the Stallion that mounts the world, Dany doesn't think about how Rhaego is going to be such a fierce khal like his father or anything, she just gives herself into the moment with Drogo and fucks him before the khalasar. Dany wants to live in the present, but she wants a certain present. She remembers her days when she had nothing to worry about and longs for it.

It also fits into however why Quaithe tells her to remember who she is, and that dragons don't grow trees. Dany is happiest when she's not worried about what she's doing, and she's been sick to death trying to "fix" Meereen and govern long term. "Fire and Blood" isn't just a call back to her to remember she's a Targaryen, it's a call back that dragons don't plan long term, and instead live in the moment. Like she wants to, but constantly struggles against. She needs to let go.

As to the second point about Rhaegar and Ashara, I must say I try and stay away from stuff like this as it's too easy to get caught up in seeing what you want to see if you're focusing on metaphorical connections instead of physical and concrete ones. Rhaegar you might say was starry, but I'd just say that IMO a connection could instead be made that Rhaegar also liked putting off his duties and struggled trying to do them. Barristan says he'd go off to Summerhall by himself and just wander the ruins and sleep under the stars composing songs. I have to imagine that that's probably a journey of weeks or a month to do these sojourns of his. Which is a fairly large time to be putting off his duties, and just enjoying himself. Not to mention we see that he was hesitant to act against Aerys. He knew what needed to be done, but shied away from it and instead focused on Lyanna and seemingly once again abandoned his duties to just enjoy himself. Which is all so interesting because Barristan claimed that Rhaegar was "singleminded" and "dutiful". I've never really seen it, the guy seemed to always walk away from his duties and put them aside for later. That would be my connection, that both Dany and Rhaegar struggle with the life they're forced to live by their stations, and the simpler carefree life they'd rather have. They're "Starry" in the sense that they wish for a different life than what they've got by virtue of who their fathers are, which is why I'd find it interesting if Dany's father isn't Aerys, because then she's never had any claim to the life she's taken anyways. She could abandon her floppy ears at any moment as she's not that girl.

And as to Ashara, sure she's a "starry" maid in the sense that House Dayne's sigil happens to have a star, but then you'd also be leaving out the sword in their sigil if you did that. We don't really know much at all about Ashara, so it's kinda hard to make any personality connections, especially considering that Ashara apparently undergoes a tremendous personal change in her later life as one moment she's the maid with laughing purple eyes dancing at Harrenhal, and the next she's the lady with haunting violet eyes waiting for Eddard after the war who commits suicide in her grief. So can't even really begin to get a lock on what she was like or enjoyed.

I dunno though, it's an interesting idea, but like I said I'm not much of a fan when it comes to metaphorical connections or connections to outside works or ideas as it's kinda easy to fall into a trap of seeing things that might not be there. The connections between Dany and Rhaegar are very much real, I've got no dispute that Dany's his kid, but Ashara, despite the stuff I outlined in the OP, or rather I guess outside of the stuff in the OP, I have trouble seeing real connections between the two, and what are connections of possibly confirmation bias. That's not to say that stars don't feature heavily in Dany's story, and that Ashara wasn't a "star", but the connection's rather tenuous as well anybody who's sigil happened to be a star could be connected to her then

Yup. You'll actually find this very argument in the OP actually



Dany should've been able to identify the woman's name. She doesn't. So it should be a name she doesn't know, otherwise that's just poor writing on GRRM's part.

Of course, Barristan then just so happens to show up in Dany's story. And thinks to himself that she looks like she could be Ashara's daughter, that they have the same eyes (and mind you only Dany, Ashara, and Sweets have specifically violet eyes in ASOIAF) and how not winning Harrenhal and crowning Ashara and therefore ultimately losing her was the biggest failure of his life. So I expect that when Dany (hopefully) gets reunited with Barristan, that she'll hear that name finally, perhaps in a tidbit that Barristan thought he'd failed again as he had so long ago or something. Otherwise, I mean well, who cares about those tidbits from Barristan then?

Hahah no worries


Exactly. I mean we all know he was married to Elia and fond of her, and supposedly loved Lyanna, so what gives? Why not just write down what name was said? There should only be 2 options right? Unless there's a 3rd.


Yup. Rhaegar specifically had indigo eyes. Viserys specifically had lilac eyes. Dany specifically has violet eyes, All shades of purple yes, but 3 different shades. Which is interesting because obviously supposedly they all 3 had the same parents... so shouldn't there only be 2 shades of purple here? Aerys had dark eyes according to the HOTU vision so presumably his were an indigo colour too. Which would leave Rhaella to having lilac eyes like Viserys.

So uh, where'd the 3rd colour come from? Who gave Dany her violet eyes? It's of course possible to get a slightly different purple colour from two purple eyed parents, but it's an interesting detail that Dany's eyes are a different shade from her family's, and that they're the same colour as Ashara's


They're the only two women with them in the books. And moreover, when Dany sees a vision of Rhaego, she seems him with violet eyes as well


So these violet eyes get passed down, and Ashara' the only person who's said to have had violet eyes, and she gave birth to a daughter around the right time for Dany.

And finally, the only other Targaryens who are said to have specifically violet eyes are Naerys Targaryen, who Dany resembles according to SSM, and Aerion Brightflame, who's mother happened to be Dyanna Dayne


So that violet eye colour of Dany's is very interesting.


Yup. Barristan could just be wallowing in self pity, but seems more like those details should be important to Dany's story or they should've been cut. Like you say, they come out of nowhere, and they come rapid fire that Ashara and Dany look alike, that they've got the same eyes, that Ashara gave birth to a daughter, that she killed herself in grief over her dead lover, and that above all else, Barristan wished he'd been able to crown her and now his queen is Dany.

ETA: Damn Mark. I just snooped your avatar. Badass.


All a matter of perspective. If we had only met Reek, we'd never have suspected he was a lordling. It's the Sealord's Cat all over again.



Ashara's own family maintains she killed herself over a broken heart, which makes little sense if she were a rape victim.

R+L would be a really cool means of giving us Jon or Dany, but the two seem as different as night and day. R+A makes a lot of logistical/practical/circumstantial sense, and would fit Dany inside and out and top to bottom. Lyanna might've been beautiful, but she wasn't Ashara-Dany beautiful. And the stark difference with Jon has always stuck out to me, even when I favored RLJ. All of Dany's instincts/dreams/visions/decisions seem to mirror Rhaegar. Jon's don't. That is far from being conclusive evidence, but it is enough to give me pause.

Within the pause, the discrepancies take root.

I find R+A=D far more plausible at this point than I do R+L=J or even Aerys+Rhaella=Dany, which is saying something because I never doubted Dany's parentage before you started pointing out these discrepancies. I was always on the fence with Jon's parentage, but not hers.

R+L=D and Aerys+Anyone seem far less plausible to me than RAD, or even the Illyrio's brainwashed slave angle.

It would be really cool if show-Ned finally gets into that room and there's only a baby girl.



Yup agree with all of that. I would only point out that the existence you describe is rather temporary and impermanent. Rather than leaving a legacy that will endure throughout the ages, Dany is instead more comfortable in the glory of the present. Immediacy. And that sounds like a brilliant falling star. Beautiful, but short-lived. Falling stars have no past, no future, and no feast to attend at Khal Drogo's manse.



I know that stuff isn't your cup of tea. I just had to point it out. I think there is something to the cognates themselves, but I too would hesitate to name that proof of anything.

Regarding whether or not Rhaegar was "dutiful," now, I think that is a matter of perspective. Ser Barristan was not close enough to Rhaegar to be aware of anything too intimate. And, I think Barry's impression fits rather well with the public opinion of Rhaegar.

Barristan is not yet sharing with Dany the whole and complete truth, and at that point, he's even still using the name Arstan. Here's the "single-minded" & "dutiful" quote with a bit more context in a spoiler box:


1. Notice how quickly Dany jumps from brother, to father, to brother. It's very interesting in light of your essay. Dany thinks of herself as the Daughter of Dragons, Bride of Dragons, and Mother of Dragons. Even if Rhaegar were not her father, Targaryen incest traditions would have her view him as both brother and possible mate -- as she does with "brother" Viserys. Rhaegar was of course already married, but it is interesting to consider the intergenerational effects of incest, and how they would shape Dany's concept of uncle-fathers, aunt-mothers, and brother-husbands. One need only look at Gilly's view of her father-husband to see how blurry the lines become. So this juxtaposition of the three men in Dany's life is very interesting to me. She does not ask about her mother or Rhaegar's children. She only asks the whitebeard about three men whom she might have considered father or husband or brother. If she's Rhaegar's daughter, she's Viserys' niece... which might explain why Viserys is willing to sell her to the Dothraki. (one less competitor, and a potentially influential one given Rhaegar's popularity)

2. No man but Arthur Dayne? This is another very interesting line. Barristan clearly did not know Rhaegar all that well, but the fact that Rhaegar's secretive nature was well-known enough to have been hearsay is very telling. No one truly knew the prince, and that means he had few confidants. So the closest friend of such a man was truly the kind of man privy to knowledge and insights that were otherwise unknown/unknowable.

3. It might be nothing, but the identical word choice sticks out to me. Dany speaks with delight for two men: Rhaegar and Arthur. Also interesting, considering the first could well be her father and the other could well be her uncle.

4. The Warrior Debate. Most of this conversation is dedicated to the Warrior debate. Viserys, Dany, and Jorah all wish to paint Rhaegar as a Warrior, and Barristan acknowledges the prince knew how to use a sword. But the old knight will not name Rhaegar as a great or accomplished warrior. It seems Barry views the prince as a well-intentioned warrior, but not particularly skilled. I think this is one area in which Barristan is a reliable narrator regarding the prince.

5. Barristan adds a qualifier when tempering his assessment of Rhaegar's Warrior-ness... puissant. This basically removes the mantle of skill from Rhaegar himself and instead places it upon those in his command. Really, Barristan is just acknowledging that the prince was a prince and bore considerable influence. I think that's pretty funny. One could truthfully say that the Ned Stark we saw on HBO at the tower of joy was a puissant warrior, but one could not truly say that he was a great warrior without equal. Ned won because he had help, and influence. Rhaegar was respected because of the men who followed him, not because of his own skill in battle. Robert killed a rich nerd. LOL

6. Jorah's single victory seems to mirror Rhaegar's single victory. I can see how fans might want to equate Jorah's Lynesse-intoxication and invigoration with Rhaegar's... after all, he won and crowned Lyanna QoLaB. But we hear no reference in which Lyanna gave Rhaegar her favor to wear in the tilts. Nor do we ever hear of Rhaegar being infatuated with the she-wolf. What might have inspired the Prince of Dragonstone to victory? Well, I think it was Aegon. If Aegon had already been born, I think Rhaegar was feeling the pride that comes with holding your son in your arms (his prince that was promised). If Aegon was not yet born, then Rhaegar was filled with determination. It seemed he must be a warrior. And he wanted to sire the prince that was promised. Elia's feelings were likely akin to his own, regardless of the circumstance. And yes, I favor the idea that Rhaegar's victory had nothing to do with Lyanna, and that the QoLaB laurel was a gesture made on behalf of his closest friend. But, that's another thread... In regards to this essay, I think it is interesting that Barristan views Jorah's victory as happenstance. One wonders if Barry knows the lists are often rigged to help a chosen victor succeed. (He was certainly quick to jump to that conclusion when Robert wanted to enter the melee.)

7. Our default, prototypical, fundamental Rhaegar:

• Able 
• Determined
• deliberate
• dutiful
• single-minded
• bookish to a fault (Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle)
• no interest in the play of other children
• maesters were awed by his wits
• Baelor the Blessed had been born again
• found something in his scrolls that changed him (heeds counsel)

8. Rhaegar, the Boy Reborn

• the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel
• He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, ‘I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.’”

9. Is that Robert Baratheon? No...can't be. He's not just missing the beard and warhammer, he has no dick. It's just Strong Belwas, the other Anti-Rhaegar (he who shits on men in fancy armor). Notice how quickly and sharply GRRM contrasts the bookish and dutiful Rhaegar with an actual prototypical Warrior. "Strong Belwas no read book! Me eat book now!" Strong Belwas is not "puissant." Strong Belwas is "strong."

10. And again, we have the Puissant Warrior contrasted with the Strong Warrior: Arstan Whitebeard vs The Bear. (No doubt, this will pop up as a new OP on that other site LOL.) I'm not talking about inverses and echoes. At least, I'm not right now. This is a very clear cut contrast of character: Brawn vs Influence.

11. =  7. 
     
Is it redundant to add an [11] after every sentence? Yes, of course. But I did it because every one of those qualities have been applied to Rhaegar. GRRM has just contrasted Brawn and Influence, only to have Dany embrace the Puissant Warrior Archetype...

Our default, prototypical, fundamental Rhaegar Dany:

• “A queen must listen to all,” she reminded him.
  
• “The highborn and the low, the strong and the weak, the noble and the venal.
  
• One voice may speak you false, but in many there is always truth to be found.”
  
• She had read that in a book.
  

Does that sound like Aerys? Of course, I'm preaching to the choir (or really, to the preacher). LOL

It's easy to forget that before she got her Silver, Dany was overjoyed by the gift of Jorah's books from the 7k. Dany is bookish, dutiful, able, determined, deliberate, single-minded, heeds counsel, and, at times like this one, has the ability to speak with a wisdom beyond her years. I think she'd impress Maester Luwin or Maester Aemon sufficiently enough. And while she might look back nostalgically upon simpler days, playing with carefree children, she does not play. It's almost like she came to realize she must be a warrior.

 

But rather than wield the sword, Ashara lept from it. Like a falling star...

Arthur and Lyanna each embody their house sigil rather perfectly, but only half of it imo.

If House Stark only had a blue rose in their wolf's mouth, we'd have a really nice parallel. Although, the blue rose is conspicuously out of sight.... growing from the Wall. Mayhaps that is what the wolf is running toward. Ever northward.

Okay, I'm venturing away from your comfort zone Mark, but must tag Lady Dyanna and SlyWren who have been trying to tell me that there might be something extra special about having a wolf-mother, as opposed to a wolf-father. The blue rose might be a symbol of precisely that...not to mention if Bael the Bard is accurate, House Stark is actually a Patrilineal Pretender, that was in truth maintained by a she-wolf and bastardy... Might have to carve that one in stone. LOL



Fair enough. Just know that when you say it is a tenuous connection (b/w Dany & Ashara), I agree. Mostly.... However, I can't help but think to myself, What is Dany, if not an embodiment of tenuous connections to her familial heritage?

And, What is Ashara if not an archetype of a mother with a tenuous connection to her daughter?

I have a hunch you're not a big believer in the idea of blood-memory, but Dany's "If I look back, I am lost" refrain sure sounds like the sort of imprint that might be left upon an infant orphaned by a mother who was lost.

Falling stars, the both of them. The most beautiful woman things in the world. And though they are powerful spectacles and unique, they quickly fade into the sea. Any child that came from such, could be said to be Stormborn, eh?

Glad you could make it! And just a quick fyi, you can tag members by typing "@membername" (without the quotes). You can also tag someone by clicking on this button and entering the member's tag (it will automatically search for members with the name) There is also the simple tagging feature in the full-reply window. Which reminds me, if you'd rather see a preview of what your reply will look like, as you're typing it, you can click on the "Reply" button to the right of the formatting toolbar to get there. Otherwise, the "Post Quick Reply" button will suffice, and post your comment immediately, but has less options.



Funny, but it took me a long time to get sold on this hypothesis. And even when I was coming around to it, I still leaned toward Aerys being Dany's father.

I can't even remember the first time I heard markg171 suggest that Dany wasn't who she thought she was, but I know it was a hell of a long time ago. My realization of it has been as slow as Ned's discovery of twincest. But now. Yeah. I'm completely sold too. Too many discrepancies for Dany to be who she thinks she is, and too many Rhaegar connections for Rhaegar to not be her father. I'm all in on R+A=D and Arthur+Lyanna=Jon. R+L=D&J is a very distant 4th choice, after Ned+Wylla and Ned +Ashara.

Speaking of which. If you're a fan of House Dayne, you might like these threads:
Arthur+Lyanna
Moments at Dawn
Jon at Starfall
How Ice became Dawn



Her unrefined manners really are a strong point in favor of her not being raised the same way as Viserys.

Another point in favor of them being raised separately is that Dany speaks perfect High Valyrian, and Viserys apparently cannot speak it at all. Very curious circumstance, and one of the most interesting bits of information this essay brings to light in my opinion. Of all the Targ royals alive during Robert's Rebellion, I think Rhaegar would have been the one most interested in their mother tongue. I base that on little more than pure speculation of course, but his interest in prophecy and music would make it seem appropriate. Aerys was all fire, Viserys was all venom. Rhaegar was the one interested in his children having songs.

Ned seems an unlikely sort of fellow a woman would throw herself from a tower for, but Rhaegar's mystique and the co-wife/paramour bond, I could see working in that direction. What if Ashara threw herself from the Palestone Sword because of Elia's death as much as Rhaegar's?

And I just realized I'm not addressing your question at all. LOL

As far as her gait and posture go, we can look at Arya and see how some young highborn ladies are not exactly lady-like. That would be a strong point in favor or R+L=D, or we could learn someday that Ashara slouched. The latter is not likely but I prefer R+A=D, so some bias there admittedly.

A better explanation of Dany's carefree upbringing might be the Water Gardens. If she were raised in a place with Lemon Trees outside the window, where children can run around naked or wearing whatever they choose, then that seems a very likely candidate.

When Arianne starts speaking to Aegon VI in fluent High Valyrian, it might all make perfect sense.

But yes, it gives me pause as well. I'm far from certain on these points. It is known that Maesters typically learn and teach High Valyrian, as it is no longer a living language. And that, my friend, is a very interesting bit of information in its own right and one that speaks to the veracity of markg171's theory.

From it, we might conclude that Dany must have been raised with or by a Maester, and, that Viserys was not.

Talk about a bombshell. At least, it was for me.

Dany's "Willem Darry" with his soft hands was probably in truth a maester. Viserys' "Willem Darry" was probably the real Willem Darry. Viserys seems like a man who's been raised by an old master at arms. Dany does not. Dany seems like a girl raised by a maester. Her knowledge of war strategy alone should give us pause. Her mastery of High Valyrian all but seals the deal.

Thus I reconcile the Dany enigma in my head by assuming she was raised in a very carefree environment with lemon trees and a maester. Gotta be Dorne, and my money is on the Water Gardens, Sunspear, or Starfall.