(f)Dany

This cannot be overstated enough. Ned is not calling Rhaegar honourable or anything when he makes his statement. He's just saying that he didn't think that Rhaegar visited brothels.

Oh I'm sure that Ned has a reason for why he believes this, but he never gives it. It's entirely the reader's own inflections to say that Ned is calling Rhaegar too honourable to visit brothels, or anything at all. Ned did not do this. Ned never said what "it" was that made it that he doesn't believe that Rhaegar went to brothels. There are thousands of reasons why Ned could think that Rhaegar didn't go to brothels, but Ned never gave that reason did he? It's a statement, not an explanation by Ned.

And I mean whether Rhaegar was actually too honourable or not, if I had to say the largest contributing factor for why Rhaegar might not go to brothels IMO, it was probably the fact that he was such an introvert, and not that his honour didn't let him. It's far more likely to me that this loner guy simply not only had no interest in them, but probably would've found the whole thing completely uncomfortable.

But again, Ned never gave his own reason for why he thought Rhaegar wouldn't go to a brothel. Any delving into why Ned made his statement is just really the reader's own interpretations, and not something Ned ever actually said.

Word! (times infinity)



Aww yeeeee.

That's what I'm talking about.



LOL ditto on the above!

YUP!

Granted, I can see the argument that she's the sister that follows her brother. That Viserys was just the black sheep.

But after re-reading armstark's Sacrifice Rhaegar thread, thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/151/sacrifice-rhaegar
Really seems like Rhaegar rose as the dragon after all of that. And, as Dany says, she is the Dragon's Daughter.

I buy armstark's premise that Rhaegar or another Targ descendant was supposed to be a sacrifice. Which fits with Dany--Illyrio says he didnt' expect Dany to survive the Dothraki--was she supposed to be a sacrifice for Viserys? but instead rose as a dragon, too?


Sounds right. I'd also add a forgetting of the past precedes a lot of this. The breakdown of social ties. So, not just natural, but social breakdown in Westeros. Which leaves them vulnerable to the natural forces.


Oh, no--I agree with this, too.

I know LmL disagrees as do many others, but I just can't see how dragons fit in Westeros. Their coming west seems like it started/continued a process of breaking down the balance. Leaf says all of the magical animals are going--the direwolves will last longest, but they are all going. If she's telling the truth, seems like bringing the dragons back is not a good idea.

Whether the Targs finally found the right process or no.

Definitely agree. And yes, it really could be used for or against Lyanna or Ashara as paramours. Ashara makes more sense than Lyanna from a cultural standpoint. Lyanna's "one bed" sentiments tend to hang me up when considering this possibility. But still, very interesting line of inquiry. Lyanna as a paramour certainly seems more plausible than Lyanna as a rape victim or a second wife.

And Ashara just screams paramour.

We know so little of Ashara it is difficult to ascribe her any personality at all, but given the Arya-template, I definitely see Lyanna as manipulative. In truth, I see Lyanna as representing a classical nymph or modern nymphet.

Given Arya's lack of empathy for the woman who threw herself from the tower because her prince was dead, I tend to think Lyanna did not hold Ashara in particularly high esteem. It was probably more of an Arya-Sansa relationship (an Ygritte-Kneeler relationship?), if they knew each other at all.

So yes. Am considering your thoughts. I definitely see Lyanna as a player of her own game. I must confess that I generally assume Ashara was vapid by comparison, and no player, but I admit having scant evidence for such a conclusion.

Well the other thing to consider about Walys is that Ned replaced him seeing as we know that Luwin was actually Riverrun's maester during the war, and then Ned brought him on to Winterfell given that Cat says that Luwin delivered all of her children



And with Robb having been born in Riverrun, then Luwin's originally from Riverrun and took over for Walys right around the time that Ned comes home from the war. Either Walys died, or Ned fired him. But he's indeed missing seeing as Luwin wasn't Winterfell's maester during the war.

A few new comments came to mind regarding this OP, markg171 ...


Today, while listening to this OP, I was struck by something. Dany I... is, like, almost exactly what we find in Reek II ADWD:


It's a game of "dress up" for Reek. He feels as comfortable being clean, wearing furs, as Dany does being clean wearing silk. He even reflects upon the cruelty of his master the same way Dany reflects upon waking Viserys' dragon.

With Theon, we are walked through his transformation from Theon to Reek to Theon, and so, can easily digest it. With Dany, we meet her just beyond the point of her brainwashing, I think, and therefore it is harder to accept she might not be "Dany."



Not to go too crackpot on ya, but another thing I've been toying with over the years is the etymology of Daenerys' name. It's a force of habit to analyze language, and I find myself doing it even without meaning to, but anyway...

Aerys, Arys, and Erys seem to be cognates of "Fire" in Valyrian. I'm a fan of the idea that GRRM uses real-world symbolism to strengthen the believability of his story, and I believe he chose this cognate because of Aries, a fire sign of the zodiac, connected to Mars and the mythological powers of fire, bloodshed, war, impulsiveness, power, lust, etc. Khal Drogo was basically Mars Incarnate, not to mention a likely Dothraki cognate of *Drac. Drac likely refers to Dragon, or "of the dragon".

I gather these of course from the word dracaerys.

"Drac"+"arys" = "dragonfire"

Daenerys has this same cognate in the last four letters of her name. The reason I mention this in relation to your (f)Dany hypothesis is that I believe the other part of her name (*daen) means "Dream." [Nevermind *daen's resemblance to a certain house, that like dreams themselves, seems tied to circadian rhythms.] We also have the tale of "Daenys the Dreamer" who is basically the Bran the Builder of House Targaryen. Anyway, when I read the name "Daenerys," I always think "dreamfire" because I'm a nerdy linguist and I can't help it.

"Mad King Aerys" is "Mad King Fire" to me. "Viserys" reads like "Visceral Fire" or "Nonintellectual Fire."

So I bring this up because it fits with Dany as being suspended in a false reality, a dream, like Reek. The coziness Dany feels with her starry khalasar has always made sense to me because of this. Dreams are at home with Stars.

Dany is at home with Stars. Dreamfire = Nightfires = Stars.

Dany is a very starry girl, and Viserys was not a very starry boy. He was sired by Fire itself, a fire that was mad and cruel.

Rhaegar was starry though. A man interested in the higher mysteries (= stars). And Ashara was the Starry Maiden from a red land. It all seems rather fitting, no?

Don't worry voice, I've seen this and the Pate comment and I do mean to eventually get around to responding to them lol. Mind's just been in a thousand different places lately

Oh and noticed something cool the other day. This thread's gone semi-viral! Was watching a random Youtube video on Dany 1, and two different people, who don't match any of our users at least, in the comment section plugged this thread as something to read if you question Dany! And I've seen random people on Reddit sharing it too.