Post by whitewolfstark on Mar 21, 2016 3:39:44 GMT
This has remained true throughout the books and the tv series, but the issue of the dagger is the only case where Varys and Petyr team up on anything. We know why they would want to oppose one another on principle. What exactly makes this situation so different that they'd feel the need to team up. What makes this situation so special?
I mean it's true, both wish to foster Civil War to promote their own ends and see who they want on the throne--that's taken for granted. But why strike now? Opportunity? And why have this be that one time they work together, but never again? There's something more there that I haven't been able to uncover, or perhaps might be revealed in the books later on (maybe). But this remains the only time these two otherwise enemies work together.
This has remained true throughout the books and the tv series, but the issue of the dagger is the only case where Varys and Petyr team up on anything. We know why they would want to oppose one another on principle. What exactly makes this situation so different that they'd feel the need to team up. What makes this situation so special?
I mean it's true, both wish to foster Civil War to promote their own ends and see who they want on the throne--that's taken for granted. But why strike now? Opportunity? And why have this be that one time they work together, but never again? There's something more there that I haven't been able to uncover, or perhaps might be revealed in the books later on (maybe). But this remains the only time these two otherwise enemies work together.
Influence mainly is why LF and Varys seem to be working on opposite ends. My most recent reread has really show me how much those two have been playing a mean game behind the scenes. We spend so much time watching Tyrion playing the game and thinking he's good at it only to be completely outclassed.
Part of me wonders if they are actually working together. A "two man con" if you will. Most of our POV's end up under the influence of LF or Varys. If they pretend work be working against each other they end up holding all the cards.
While I don't think it is actually true it may yet come to pass via their students: Sansa and Aegon. I think those two may end up as King and Queen but I am not sure for how long. Still if they have both Varys and LF working for them they will be unstoppable until the Others come South.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Influence mainly is why LF and Varys seem to be working on opposite ends. My most recent reread has really show me how much those two have been playing a mean game behind the scenes. We spend so much time watching Tyrion playing the game and thinking he's good at it only to be completely outclassed.
Yep. ::i agree:: What I find even more amusing is that often times Varys actually gives Tyrion some pretty big hints, and Tyrion still can't put all of the pieces together.
Part of me wonders if they are actually working together. A "two man con" if you will. Most of our POV's end up under the influence of LF or Varys. If they pretend work be working against each other they end up holding all the cards.
It's certainly something to consider, but I don't think so. I just think that they're both smart enough to figure out when working together has the biggest benefit for both of them. I do reserve the right to change my mind on that, however.
While I don't think it is actually true it may yet come to pass via their students: Sansa and Aegon. I think those two may end up as King and Queen but I am not sure for how long. Still if they have both Varys and LF working for them they will be unstoppable until the Others come South.
Interesting thought. I'm not sure that I see Aegon and Sansa together, but Varys and Littlefinger on the same side would be a scary thing to behold, and nearly unstoppable I would imagine.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
This has remained true throughout the books and the tv series, but the issue of the dagger is the only case where Varys and Petyr team up on anything. We know why they would want to oppose one another on principle. What exactly makes this situation so different that they'd feel the need to team up. What makes this situation so special?
Well, it's the only time it's shown outright, at least. You might be able to make a case for Varys actually attempting to use Littlefinger towards his own ends here. Varys might well have been the one to figure out that Catelyn was in town, etc. But Littlefinger is the one who has a history with her and she is much more likely to share her purpose with a friend.
I mean it's true, both wish to foster Civil War to promote their own ends and see who they want on the throne--that's taken for granted. But why strike now? Opportunity? And why have this be that one time they work together, but never again? There's something more there that I haven't been able to uncover, or perhaps might be revealed in the books later on (maybe). But this remains the only time these two otherwise enemies work together.
And even this assumption. Are we actually even sure that this truly is either of their end game?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Yep. ::i agree:: What I find even more amusing is that often times Varys actually gives Tyrion some pretty big hints, and Tyrion still can't put all of the pieces together.
Varys does give a lot of hints, but also Varys is also a huge liar. Could be the truth could be misdirection, either way our boy Tyrion can't take a hint.
It's certainly something to consider, but I don't think so. I just think that they're both smart enough to figure out when working together has the biggest benefit for both of them. I do reserve the right to change my mind on that, however.
It's always back to the enemy of my enemy is my friends. The problem is the friends and enemies in Westeros change so constantly. Luckily they both seem to react well to chaos. Something that throws a lot of other would be players off their game.
Interesting thought. I'm not sure that I see Aegon and Sansa together, but Varys and Littlefinger on the same side would be a scary thing to behold, and nearly unstoppable I would imagine.
That's the idea really between Aegon, Sansa, Varys, and Littlefinger they would have friends in pretty much every kingdom. Also are you familiar with the Ashford Tourney theory?
Varys does give a lot of hints, but also Varys is also a huge liar. Could be the truth could be misdirection, either way our boy Tyrion can't take a hint.
Good point. I think that I was just more caught up in the idea that Tyrion wasn't getting it. It's pretty humorous. At least once when Varys says that a small man can cast a large shadow I think that he's referring to Littlefinger, but Tyrion assumes that Varys means him.
It's always back to the enemy of my enemy is my friends. The problem is the friends and enemies in Westeros change so constantly. Luckily they both seem to react well to chaos. Something that throws a lot of other would be players off their game.
That's the idea really between Aegon, Sansa, Varys, and Littlefinger they would have friends in pretty much every kingdom. Also are you familiar with the Ashford Tourney theory?
Yes, I've seen the thread on Westeros before. I'm just not sure if I believe it. I saw the theory prior to actually reading TMK and it caught my attention. For some reason, though, after reading it myself, it didn't seem to work for me anymore. There was actually a reason for it, but I'm not sure what it was. I'm thinking that although all of them were champions, they weren't all champions at the same time. Plus there were other champions than weren't accounted for. I'd have to reread it to be sure of that, though. Thanks for the links!
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
This has remained true throughout the books and the tv series, but the issue of the dagger is the only case where Varys and Petyr team up on anything. We know why they would want to oppose one another on principle. What exactly makes this situation so different that they'd feel the need to team up. What makes this situation so special?
I mean it's true, both wish to foster Civil War to promote their own ends and see who they want on the throne--that's taken for granted. But why strike now? Opportunity? And why have this be that one time they work together, but never again? There's something more there that I haven't been able to uncover, or perhaps might be revealed in the books later on (maybe). But this remains the only time these two otherwise enemies work together.
Did they team up though?
Does Varys keep track of who owns what knives?
While I'm not certain, this rewatch has helped me understand some of their motives. I think LF acted when he did because he wanted to be Hand, or at least, be in a prime position once Robert died. I think Varys and LF knew Robert wasn't going to be allowed to live much longer, and each used Ned for their own purposes. Varys to prolong the inevitable, LF to hasten it.
The timing aspect falls into place with those motives. Joffrey would be a king too young to rule, giving LF more power than ever before as a loyal and competent counselor. The one threat to his authority would've been a beloved old friend of the king who proved to be a wise Hand beloved by the people. Thus, LF set the Wolf against the Lion, and the rest feel neatly into place. LF is Lord of HH and Lord Protector of the Vale.
Varys had (f)Aegon nearly ready, but not quite....Viserys too was nearly ready to threaten the realm (and pave the way for Aegon the Savior), but not quite....thus his procrastination and support of Eddard.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I wouldn't say Varys literally 'teamed up' with Littlefinger on that occasion, but rather simply didn't interfere.
And how could he interfere, even if he wanted to? Seemingly, the story about that tourney bet was Littlefinger's improvisation on the spot, Varys wasn't ready for it. He had already admitted not knowing anything about the dagger, and he couldn't just accuse Baelish of lying without providing an alternative explanation of the dagger's origins. And in any case, calling Petyr Baelish a liar would be a dangerous move, too dangerous for Varys, who must remain sly and obedient in order to survive the politics of King's Landing. Interestingly, perhaps he did try to hint Ned about LF, during the Hand's tourney, with a story of "a boy from the Vale, who owed everything to Jon Arryn", which Ned immediately took to mean the late ser Hugh, and Varys seemingly confirmed it. Maybe, Varys was just being very careful and didn't dare to speak openly, so he tried to give Ned a hint, and decided not to press the issue when Ned failed to understand.
Anyway, while there are great points in previous answers, and there's a possibility Varys and Littlefinger worked together on one or more occasions, personally I don't quite believe it, mostly because of "gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing", and "the Wolf and the Lion will be at each other's throats thanks to Littlefinger's meddling" (Varys to Illyrio, overheard by Arya).
Unless, of course, Varys was lying to Illyrio. At the moment, this is too much for me to process, but sometimes it does seem to me we should prepare ourselves to the revelations about Varys and Illyrio not exactly sharing goals. For now, though, I really believe they work together and Varys has no reason to lie to Illyrio regarding LF.