Longclaw & Mirroring

Must say, Dany's pyre-walk makes all those mad Targaryens look not-so-mad. Their pyromania was not rewarded, but it is somewhat justified. Dragons are pretty cool. Or hot. Or...

Yes--as I said on the "circle of fire" thread--Dany says she's the dragon's daughter. At some point in the series, Jorah insists that Rhaegar was the "last dragon." If so--Dany's learned in one way or another that's she's truly a dragon.

But I also noticed at the start of the scene that they ask her if she really wants to burn the eggs vs. selling them. She could have done so--she chose dragons. I'm wondering if that was part of the choice. What might Jon choose re: swords? He chooses to go back to the Wall. . .

It might. I'm reminded of:

Jon had pressed Longclaw into Sam's hand. He let him feel the lightness, the balance, had him turn the blade so that ripples gleamed in the smoke-dark metal. "Valyrian steel," he said, "spell-forged and razor-sharp, nigh on indestructible. A swordsman should be as good as his sword, Sam. Longclaw is Valyrian steel, but I'm not.

Imagine how much better a swordsman Jon would be if his sword felt right in his hand. Rather than be tortured by it, he could rise with it.

YUP! The show hasn't shown this. They don't show his disappointment re: the sword very well, either. Harrington does his sad puppy face. But he often does that face . . so, hard to find any context.

I love the sound of Dany's eggs hatching btw...and was very disappointed the show did nothing to emulate that. Hopefully when the chink in the Wall cracks open, we'll get to hear it. ::devil::

HA!!!

Indeed. The eggs whisper to Dany a song her parents (father Rhaegar?) might've sung to her, had they lived. Longclaw has a song, but it feels wrong to Jon. It is not his father's song...

Given what she says before lighting the pyre, she HAS found her parent, the last dragon. She just knows, though she doesn't know his name (I think).

Reminds me (obviously) of Jon's seeing the Sword of the Morning constellation over the Wall in the books. . . he just knows it means hope. No context, just. . . hope.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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Longclaw & Mirroring Mar 26, 2016 5:22:11 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by voice on Mar 26, 2016 5:22:11 GMT

Yes--as I said on the "circle of fire" thread--Dany says she's the dragon's daughter. At some point in the series, Jorah insists that Rhaegar was the "last dragon." If so--Dany's learned in one way or another that's she's truly a dragon.

Big time. And the books make this distinction even more clearly, I believe. Dany is the "blood of the dragon"...GRRM has verified this in SSM...yet, the books clearly state (mainly via Jorah) that Rhaegar was "the last dragon." If he was the last dragon, and Dany is blood of the dragon, then Dany simply has to be Rhaegar's daughter.

Narrow deductive reasoning, I know, but interesting all the same.

But I also noticed at the start of the scene that they ask her if she really wants to burn the eggs vs. selling them. She could have done so--she chose dragons. I'm wondering if that was part of the choice. What might Jon choose re: swords? He chooses to go back to the Wall. . .

Yes! And I apologize for the late reply, but I wanted to quick quote this part and didn't feel like breaking it up on tapatalk.

The show has made a very VERY big deal about this choice, and highlighted it far more than the books imo. In the books, the choice is there, but hidden among many other circumstances. In the show, it isn't. This makes me wonder if D&D were told that the choice itself was an important part of the story.

Viserys was much like his father, Aerys. And Viserys wanted to sell the eggs for an army.

Dany was much unlike Viserys, and instead is attracted to dragon prophecies like a certain other Targaryen.

YUP! The show hasn't shown this. They don't show his disappointment re: the sword very well, either. Harrington does his sad puppy face. But he often does that face . . so, hard to find any context

LOL true. That does seem to be his default facial expression. Hahahaa

HA!!!

Hey I was being serious!

Given what she says before lighting the pyre, she HAS found her parent, the last dragon. She just knows, though she doesn't know his name (I think).

I like it.

Reminds me (obviously) of Jon's seeing the Sword of the Morning constellation over the Wall in the books. . . he just knows it means hope. No context, just. . . hope.

Definitely. That's the part that I get really hung up on. Hope. I see it all over the place with references to the darkness ending, the return of light to the world, the rising sun/son, the star/sword of the morning, Stars-fall and Dawn rises... It all sounds very "New Hope"/Luke Skywalker to me (if not Anakin...black ice armor with a burning red sword...hat tip to Lady Dyanna for pointing that out). It is easy to get caught up in the grey reality in this series. There is no purely good hero, and no purely evil villain. But I think in spite of his flaws and shortcomings (and bastardy), Jon is an exception. Pure.

Mayhaps not messiah-pure, or divinely conceived, but purely human. Purely natural. After all, bastards are referred to as "natural-born" children. So I see Jon as pure in that way, rather than grey. His direwolf alone was white, after all. : :cool

::

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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Longclaw & Mirroring Mar 26, 2016 16:26:14 GMT voice and caliban like this

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Post by SlyWren on Mar 26, 2016 16:26:14 GMT

If he was the last dragon, and Dany is blood of the dragon, then Dany simply has to be Rhaegar's daughter.

Narrow deductive reasoning, I know, but interesting all the same.

Narrow reasoning, maybe. But also narrative elegance.

Like the presentation of the Walker circle at the beginning and the dragon circle at the end. The show does wonky things. But this language, like the imagery, really might be. . . elegance.

The show has made a very VERY big deal about this choice, and highlighted it far more than the books imo. In the books, the choice is there, but hidden among many other circumstances. In the show, it isn't. This makes me wonder if D&D were told that the choice itself was an important part of the story.

Yes, the show has done this with a few things--like Bran's waking just as Ned stabs Lady. Those kinds of things are MUCH easier to accomplish with clear editing. Vs. multiple POVs.

So, yes, I've been thinking the "choices" have been a big deal from the first time I read Game. Jon's going back to the Wall. vs. Dany's going forward with dragons. . . . These aren't small choices. And I do think the sword is part of it. Now if the show had just sone a "see the sword in the stars" moment. . . .

AHHHH---I just realized--Dany's seeing the stars when Quaithe-voice asks her if she knows who she is. Dany's seeing stars in multiple visions/dreams. . . is this a Dayne marker?? Need to take this over to the fDany or Starfall thread. . . .

Viserys was much like his father, Aerys. And Viserys wanted to sell the eggs for an army.

Dany was much unlike Viserys, and instead is attracted to dragon prophecies like a certain other Targaryen.

Yes--and the show highlighted the difference between Dany's Targaryen nature and Viserys'. The true Dragon vs. the Beggar King. Right in season One. And in the last season, they had Barristan bring it up in sharp contrast. They aren't ignoring this aspect, at least.

Definitely. That's the part that I get really hung up on. Hope. I see it all over the place with references to the darkness ending, the return of light to the world, the rising sun/son, the star/sword of the morning, Stars-fall and Dawn rises... It all sounds very "New Hope"/Luke Skywalker to me (if not Anakin...black ice armor with a burning red sword...hat tip to Lady Dyanna for pointing that out). It is easy to get caught up in the grey reality in this series. There is no purely good hero, and no purely evil villain. But I think in spite of his flaws and shortcomings (and bastardy), Jon is an exception. Pure.

Yes--this is what I'm starting to think with the stars.

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame. Game, Dany XI

Doesn't that look like "stars = good and pure" vs. " flame = bad, anti-stars." And this should also go on the Starfall and fDany threads.

Mayhaps not messiah-pure, or divinely conceived, but purely human. Purely natural. After all, bastards are referred to as "natural-born" children. So I see Jon as pure in that way, rather than grey. His direwolf alone was white, after all.

YUP!!!

Last Edit: Mar 26, 2016 16:26:58 GMT by SlyWren

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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Longclaw & Mirroring Mar 27, 2016 3:05:26 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by voice on Mar 27, 2016 3:05:26 GMT

Narrow reasoning, maybe. But also narrative elegance.

I think so too. It would be like GRRM to hide such clues in plain sight that are really only obvious after the fact.

Like the presentation of the Walker circle at the beginning and the dragon circle at the end. The show does wonky things. But this language, like the imagery, really might be. . . elegance.

F'reals. It is an oddly similar design to have at the alpha and omega of the first season, right?

Yes, the show has done this with a few things--like Bran's waking just as Ned stabs Lady. Those kinds of things are MUCH easier to accomplish with clear editing. Vs. multiple POVs.

So, yes, I've been thinking the "choices" have been a big deal from the first time I read Game. Jon's going back to the Wall. vs. Dany's going forward with dragons. . . . These aren't small choices. And I do think the sword is part of it. Now if the show had just sone a "see the sword in the stars" moment. . . .

Jon wields a bastard blade from a House not his own. The Others wield swords without hilts. If only Jon had one that could bring light to the darkness.

I think this is one of the reasons RLJ tends to be so overwhelming. It negates choice, and proposes Jon as the fulfillment of prophecies. It is an easy narrative to like, because all of Jon's poor choices and dire struggles will mean something greater, something divine.

I don't think GRRM works that way. He is keenly aware of this desire, however. One need only reflect on Greatjon bellowing "King in the North!" and the destiny we felt for Robb, and know what GRRM will do to our hopes and dreams as readers.

He knows we'll be looking for Jon's destiny. Jon raises the question himself after all. But I think he's kept Dawn and Starfall on the down-low enough to make a surprise of it. Tptwp would not surprise his mother, I'm thinking.

But yes, anyway, choices. Not blood. Choices are what matter. Choices create the monstrous and the worthy.

"Heartsbane must go to a man strong enough to wield her, and you are not worthy to touch her hilt."
- Randyll Tarly

"A swordsman should be as good as his sword, Sam. Longclaw is Valyrian steel, but I'm not."
- Jon Snow

"Though many houses have their heirloom swords, they mostly pass the blades down from lord to lord. Some, such as the Corbrays have done, may lend the blade to a son or brother for his lifetime, only to have it return to the lord. But that is not the way of House Dayne. The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it. "
- The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive

AHHHH---I just realized--Dany's seeing the stars when Quaithe-voice asks her if she knows who she is. Dany's seeing stars in multiple visions/dreams. . . is this a Dayne marker?? Need to take this over to the fDany or Starfall thread. . . .

Brilliant. We might already be long overdue for a Dany at Starfall thread. LOL

Yes--and the show highlighted the difference between Dany's Targaryen nature and Viserys'. The true Dragon vs. the Beggar King. Right in season One. And in the last season, they had Barristan bring it up in sharp contrast. They aren't ignoring this aspect, at least.

They sure did, right from the first. D&D were quite masterful in their portrayal of Viserys. And, notably, the show never portrayed him speaking any language other than the common tongue. I'm thinking that is highly relevant now, as markg171 pointed out in his (f)Dany essay.

Yes--this is what I'm starting to think with the stars.

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame. Game, Dany XI

Doesn't that look like "stars = good and pure" vs. " flame = bad, anti-stars." And this should also go on the Starfall and fDany threads.

Oooh, yes it does! I like it!

I would only argue that there are stars and stars. Some, as you pointed out elsewhere are the eyes of the Stranger... Some, are blue as the eyes of death. But the natural stars in the heavens, as opposed to magical eyes that glow like stars, yes, those do seem good and pure.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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Longclaw & Mirroring Mar 27, 2016 3:30:04 GMT

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Post by SlyWren on Mar 27, 2016 3:30:04 GMT

Jon wields a bastard blade from a House not his own. The Others wield swords without hilts. If only Jon had one that could bring light to the darkness.

Preach!

I think this is one of the reasons RLJ tends to be so overwhelming. It negates choice, and proposes Jon as the fulfillment of prophecies. It is an easy narrative to like, because all of Jon's poor choices and dire struggles will mean something greater, something divine.

I don't think GRRM works that way. He is keenly aware of this desire, however. One need only reflect on Greatjon bellowing "King in the North!" and the destiny we felt for Robb, and know what GRRM will do to our hopes and dreams as readers.

Yes--Greatjon chooses to say this. Robb chooses to stand. Robb's already proven he can follow his own cancel in the scene with the spy. That is a scene of choice.

As it is with Jon and his sword. And his choice to re-join the Watch. Blood DOES have power in all of this, but it still requires choice--LmL's ideas re: the Bloodstone Emperor alone prove that. Let alone the rest of the books.

As for the ease of RLJ--when you look at what Jon learns, chooses and does you get a VERY different answer.

But if you think RLJ=fated prophecy, you can ignore much of that. And it's all just going to happen "just right." Vs. the struggle.

He knows we'll be looking for Jon's destiny. Jon raises the question himself after all. But I think he's kept Dawn and Starfall on the down-low enough to make a surprise of it. Tptwp would not surprise his mother, I'm thinking.

And, in the show VERY on the down low. In the sub basement's broom cupboard.

But yes, anyway, choices. Not blood. Choices are what matter. Choices create the monstrous and the worthy.

"Heartsbane must go to a man strong enough to wield her, and you are not worthy to touch her hilt."
- Randyll Tarly

"A swordsman should be as good as his sword, Sam. Longclaw is Valyrian steel, but I'm not."
- Jon Snow

"Though many houses have their heirloom swords, they mostly pass the blades down from lord to lord. Some, such as the Corbrays have done, may lend the blade to a son or brother for his lifetime, only to have it return to the lord. But that is not the way of House Dayne. The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it. "
- The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive

Brilliant. We might already be long overdue for a Dany at Starfall thread. LOL

Isn't that partly what the fDany argument includes? The possibility of this?

They sure did, right from the first. D&D were quite masterful in their portrayal of Viserys. And, notably, the show never portrayed him speaking any language other than the common tongue. I'm thinking that is highly relevant now, as markg171 pointed out in his (f)Dany essay.

Agreed.

And in making clear that he is no dragon. Similar to how they show Theon isn't really a Stark. Vs. Jon bleeds wolf blood.

Oooh, yes it does! I like it!

Good--because I repeated permutations of it on other threads--with various implications.

If you didn't like it. . . I'd have to apologize.

I would only argue that there are stars and stars. Some, as you pointed out elsewhere are the eyes of the Stranger... Some, are blue as the eyes of death. But the natural stars in the heavens, as opposed to magical eyes that glow like stars, yes, those do seem good and pure.

Agreed. Rather like some light and flame is good. And some--not so much.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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Longclaw & Mirroring Mar 27, 2016 3:52:39 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by voice on Mar 27, 2016 3:52:39 GMT

And, in the show VERY on the down low. In the sub basement's broom cupboard.

Although they seem to have cast Arthur Dayne this season... and not Rhaegar...

::dramatic::

LOL

Isn't that partly what the fDany argument includes? The possibility of this?

Somewhat, yes. markg171 could give a better answer than I, but I think his main focus is on Dany's identity not being accurate. I'm thinking whether or not Dany is Aerys+Rhaella's daughter or not, you're on to something with the star-references. Mark digs them too, I know. Might all be the same umbrella. But I think Mark looks at them more in terms of making us question her parentage, than her geographic home. Not sure if that makes any sense. LOL

And in making clear that he is no dragon. Similar to how they show Theon isn't really a Stark. Vs. Jon bleeds wolf blood.

Big time.

Good--because I repeated permutations of it on other threads--with various implications.

If you didn't like it. . . I'd have to apologize.

LOL, I saw them! Truly brilliant connection. I was on tapatalk so was only "liking" them, but will respond when I have more time. We're about to watch something so I'll have to take another break...

Agreed. Rather like some light and flame is good. And some--not so much.

Particularly if your name is Mirri or Quent!

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Longclaw & Mirroring Mar 28, 2016 5:41:59 GMT voice likes this

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Post by markg171 on Mar 28, 2016 5:41:59 GMT

I think his main focus is on Dany's identity not being accurate

Indeed. I included some parentages because I felt that people would have a hard time taking all the discrepancies as seriously if they couldn't see that Dany had connections to many different characters, and particularly Rhaegar at least to lend credit to the idea that these aren't just mistakes or nothing, they're discrepancies because something's not right, but the main focus of the essay IMO stemmed from first and foremost setting out that there's so much wrong with her story, and not just some lemon tree, that IMO the clues do overwhelmingly show that something's wrong with Dany.

you're on to something with the star-references

Well now that it's come to my attention actually, stars do come up at some key moments... like right after Dany just saw herself as Rhaegar, in the house with the red door, while she's birthing Rhaego

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.
“... the dragon... “
And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. “The last dragon,” Ser Jorah’s voice whispered faintly. “The last, the last.” Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.
After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!

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Longclaw & Mirroring Mar 28, 2016 6:01:58 GMT voice likes this

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Post by SlyWren on Mar 28, 2016 6:01:58 GMT

Although they seem to have cast Arthur Dayne this season... and not Rhaegar...

::dramatic::

LOL

They cast a chipmunk?

And yes--that casting. . . we obviously need to see the season. And really really need the books. But that seems. . . significant.

Somewhat, yes. markg171 could give a better answer than I, but I think his main focus is on Dany's identity not being accurate. I'm thinking whether or not Dany is Aerys+Rhaella's daughter or not, you're on to something with the star-references. Mark digs them too, I know. Might all be the same umbrella. But I think Mark looks at them more in terms of making us question her parentage, than her geographic home. Not sure if that makes any sense. LOL

Mar 28, 2016 5:41:59 GMT markg171 said:

Indeed. I included some parentages because I felt that people would have a hard time taking all the discrepancies as seriously if they couldn't see that Dany had connections to many different characters, and particularly Rhaegar at least to lend credit to the idea that these aren't just mistakes or nothing, they're discrepancies because something's not right, but the main focus of the essay IMO stemmed from first and foremost setting out that there's so much wrong with her story, and not just some lemon tree, that IMO the clues do overwhelmingly show that something's wrong with Dany.

All that you both said and more. If nothing else, seems telling that at the end of Dance, Quaithe asks Dany if she knows who she is. She proclaimed herself the dragon (over Viserys) in Game. She's asserted that dragon side many times. So. . . what part of herself doesn't she know???

LOL, I saw them! Truly brilliant connection. I was on tapatalk so was only "liking" them, but will respond when I have more time. We're about to watch something so I'll have to take another break...

Mar 28, 2016 5:41:59 GMT markg171 said:

Well now that it's come to my attention actually, stars do come up at some key moments... like right after Dany just saw herself as Rhaegar, in the house with the red door, while she's birthing Rhaego

Yup! And she actively "utilizes" them when trying to wake Drogo from his Mirri induced coma.

The show doesn't show it, but she takes him out under the stars. Like her wedding. Thinks that although the setting's different, "the stars will be enough." There's a lot more, too. More than with any other character I can find. If I ever find the magical time-producing hourglass, I'll write it all up.

The show does have Dany call him Drogo sun-and-stars frequently. Does pay attention to that. And does have her proclaim herself the dragon's daughter--and establishes Rhaegar as the dragon. So. . . it does say some things.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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Longclaw & Mirroring Mar 28, 2016 20:23:01 GMT voice likes this

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Post by Lady Dyanna on Mar 28, 2016 20:23:01 GMT

YUP! The show hasn't shown this. They don't show his disappointment re: the sword very well, either. Harrington does his sad puppy face. But he often does that face . . so, hard to find any context.

Actually, after he leaves Mormont and everyone else is congratulating him and asking to see the sword, it's one of the few times Jon actually smiles. It's not until Sam tells him about Robb that he becomes upset.

So, yes, I've been thinking the "choices" have been a big deal from the first time I read Game. Jon's going back to the Wall. vs. Dany's going forward with dragons. . . . These aren't small choices. And I do think the sword is part of it. Now if the show had just sone a "see the sword in the stars" moment. . . .

Well that wouldn't be until at least next season. I definitely agree with what you're saying about choices. Choices are what cause inner conflict.

I think this is one of the reasons RLJ tends to be so overwhelming. It negates choice, and proposes Jon as the fulfillment of prophecies. It is an easy narrative to like, because all of Jon's poor choices and dire struggles will mean something greater, something divine.

This is a really good point. If you look at it having a prophetic destiny completely undermines the inherent conflict present in the choices one makes.