Is Dany Sauron?

LmL
Samwell Tarly

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Is Dany Sauron? May 24, 2016 15:17:14 GMT via mobile SlyWren and sagenadia like this

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Post by LmL on May 24, 2016 15:17:14 GMT

May 24, 2016 2:23:09 GMT @morrigansraven said:

May 24, 2016 1:40:23 GMT SlyWren said:

[abbr title="Mon May 23 2016 21:12:51 GMT-0400 (EDT)" data-timestamp="1464052371000" class="time recent_time"]49 minutes ago[/abbr] LmL said:

Guys, I just have to say, I have no idea where that cool image came from in my comment above. I have never seen it before and I am baffled as to how it got in my post. But it's cool! Weird.

HA! That's Morrigan's avatar. I think it got blown up when you quoted--the site does that some times.

And yes, it is cool. If I remember rightly, she did it herself.

Yup, it's mine, SlyWren . I have no idea how it jumped into your post, LmL . Birds fly where they will, I guess! Glad you both like it.
PS: just read your reddit essay about the child's snow knights, LmL . Holy crow, what an amazing catch!

Yes, I really like the picture. Ethereal and full of symbolism, just my cup of tea.

I've been sitting on the child's snow knights one for a while,
although I have mentioned it a few times here and there. The trees as Others thing I only dipped my toe into, I'm quite sure voice and others who have been sniffing at this idea are on the right track. The show didn't really give up the secret of how the trees are involved in the Othering process, they just had him standing against the tree. But as book readers I think we can infer that weirwoods are a part of the process - we just don't know how exactly. There seems to be some kind of "trees bodysnatching people" thing going on, perhaps, but how does that work exactly? I will be anxious to find out.

Similarly, in the show it was dragonglass pushed in to that guys chest, and nameless black obelisks around the tree, but I am guessing and hoping that this is the show simplified reference oily black stone in the Heart of Winter and oily black stone being used to make Others, ideas which I have had for a while now but haven't gotten time to do a full essay on yet.

Last Edit: May 24, 2016 15:21:03 GMT by LmL

lucifermeanslightbringer.wordpress.com

SlyWren
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Is Dany Sauron? May 24, 2016 23:14:53 GMT sagenadia likes this

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Post by SlyWren on May 24, 2016 23:14:53 GMT

May 24, 2016 2:23:09 GMT @morrigansraven said:

Yes, the light came from the two holy trees. The only celestial light was starlight. The trees were killed by a giant spider. After the Silmarils were lost, the Vala made the Sun and the Moon to approximate the light because men had awoken and were afraid of the dark. Long Night prototype, complete with darkening skies and spiders, lol!

Yes, yes--Ungoliant!

And I'd forgotten about the stars vs. sun and moon. That actually has interesting implications for ASOIAF with when and how stars sometimes show up.

And if we are going with "is Dany Sauron?"--when Dany is dreaming before she builds the dragon-egg pyre, she sees stars in a daylight sky and everything is fabulous. Then the dragon comes and the first evidence is that the stars are gone. Then the worlds takes flame.

So, perhaps not Dany so much as Sauron or a similar figure, but Dany who relies on the dragons as such?

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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Is Dany Sauron? May 24, 2016 23:33:27 GMT LmL and sagenadia like this

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Post by SlyWren on May 24, 2016 23:33:27 GMT

May 24, 2016 15:17:14 GMT LmL said:

May 24, 2016 2:23:09 GMT @morrigansraven said:

Yup, it's mine, SlyWren . I have no idea how it jumped into your post, LmL . Birds fly where they will, I guess! Glad you both like it.
PS: just read your reddit essay about the child's snow knights, LmL . Holy crow, what an amazing catch!

Yes, I really like the picture. Ethereal and full of symbolism, just my cup of tea.

I've been sitting on the child's snow knights one for a while,
although I have mentioned it a few times here and there. The trees as Others thing I only dipped my toe into, I'm quite sure voice and others who have been sniffing at this idea are on the right track. The show didn't really give up the secret of how the trees are involved in the Othering process, they just had him standing against the tree. But as book readers I think we can infer that weirwoods are a part of the process - we just don't know how exactly. There seems to be some kind of "trees bodysnatching people" thing going on, perhaps, but how does that work exactly? I will be anxious to find out.

Similarly, in the show it was dragonglass pushed in to that guys chest, and nameless black obelisks around the tree, but I am guessing and hoping that this is the show simplified reference oily black stone in the Heart of Winter and oily black stone being used to make Others, ideas which I have had for a while now but haven't gotten time to do a full essay on yet.

LmL: Since my answer would take this thread a bit too far form the OP, I answered your post on the Weirwood Ghost thread here:
thelasthearth.com/post/35692/thread

My answer to the above is in the second half of the post.

Hopefully that's not too annoying.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

sagenadia Theon Greyjoy Posts: 438 sagenadia inherit Other / Decline to State 49 0 Dec 3, 2021 3:24:02 GMT 936 sagenadia 438 Theon Greyjoy Sept 28, 2015 0:24:36 GMT September 2015 sagenadia861	Is Dany Sauron? May 25, 2016 2:57:58 GMT via Tapatalk SlyWren likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by sagenadia on May 25, 2016 2:57:58 GMT . Attachments:

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Is Dany Sauron? May 25, 2016 11:55:47 GMT sagenadia likes this

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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2016 11:55:47 GMT

May 24, 2016 15:17:14 GMT LmL said:

. Ethereal and full of symbolism, just my cup of tea.

It'sone of my illustrations based based on a poem about the Animals in Taliesin. I'll share the poem in spoiler, as it's off-topic, though I am sure Tolkien read the Mabinogion!

SPOILER: Click to show

The Ancients of the World

The salmon lying in the depths of Llyn Llifon
Secretly as a thought in a dark mind,
Is not so old as the owl of Cwm Cowlyd
Who tells her sorrow nightly on the wind.

The ousel singing in the woods of Cilgwri,
Tirelessly as a stream over the mossed stones,
Is not so old as the toad of Cors Fochno
Who feels the cold skin sagging round his bones.

The toad and the ousel and the stag of Rhedynfre,
That has cropped each leaf from the tree of life,
Are not so old as the owl of Cwm Cowlyd,
That the proud eagle would have to wife.

By R.S.Thomas; Welsh; 1999; Thepoetryarchive.com

caliban Merrett Frey "She was," said Meera, "but that's a sadder story." Posts: 27 caliban inherit 69 0 Jan 25, 2016 11:18:57 GMT 79 caliban "She was," said Meera, "but that's a sadder story." 27 Merrett Frey Jan 25, 2016 9:28:12 GMT January 2016 caliban	Is Dany Sauron? May 25, 2016 13:15:41 GMT SlyWren and sagenadia like this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by caliban on May 25, 2016 13:15:41 GMT This is great. Personally I've always read Dany more as the Witch-king of Angmar. Corrupted by the power of fire, Lord of dragons, and embodiment of R'hllor.
	*This is not my first language

Maester Sam
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Is Dany Sauron? May 25, 2016 17:24:50 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by Maester Sam on May 25, 2016 17:24:50 GMT

May 20, 2016 22:37:46 GMT SlyWren said:

So, instead of One Ring or Silmarils, it's a belief and reliance on the dragon? Going for the complete dominance vs. the getting along with others and leading that way?

Exactly! Dany had no thoughts of world dominion before her dragons woke. All she wanted was to return to the house with the red door- Westeros (let alone Slaver's Bay) meant nothing to her. Yet once she became the mother of dragons, she started planning her conquest of the world.

May 20, 2016 22:37:46 GMT SlyWren said:

And the idea of conquest as a right--that fits with almost any conqueror, but it also fits with Sauron. Seeing the ability to do something as the right to do it.

Yup! In the preview for episode 6, Daario tells her she is a conqueror, and she replies "I take what is mine."

May 21, 2016 1:02:30 GMT tzalaran said:

Sauron picked up where his master left off, subtly at first, but then becoming the dark lord figure with the RoP. His goal was dominion, all creatures subservient to his will.

it appears to me (particularly for show Dany), that this isn't much different, only justified by her bloodline and therefore right to rule (she tries to learn to be a better leader, but i think her second rebirth in the Dothraki Sea will bring the fire and blood to the forefront), little difference from the end goals of Tolkiens antagonists. It is a very interesting comparison.

Perfect parallel. It's definitely been a subtle evolution from victim to dictator, and she's not done yet. The part that's painful to watch is that she means well, and will probably continue to mean well. She has seen that a just ruler is not respected, and will "realize" she has to be tougher in order to enforce peace. So she will kill more people, fueling more resistance and causing more of the Free Cities to object to her rule and fight her... forcing her to fight back and expand her empire of charred cities... etc.

May 22, 2016 14:39:30 GMT SlyWren said:

Though now, in my head, Marwyn is trying to flirt with Galadriel. It's not going well.

Speaking of Galadriel... check out this quote, from when Frodo offers her the ring:

You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!'
She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.
'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'

Perhaps Dany is not Sauron, but what would have become of Galadriel if she had taken the ring, not knowing how it would transform her? Which would basically make her the next Sauron anyway, just as a beautiful and terrible queen, seduced by power, intending to use that power for good but failing...

It will also be VERY interesting to see how the power of the dragons transforms Tyrion, who has already begun his journey to the dark side...

May 24, 2016 1:45:18 GMT SlyWren said:

But we do have Feanor's oath--to fight anyone and continually engage in war until all of the silmarils are returned. It resulted in horror and insane fighting. Tolkien compared it to biblically bad oaths or something. Like the oath was the abomination.

So, perhaps that's a potential parallel with the Bloodstone Emperor's blood betrayal.

How that ties to Sauron? Not sure. But the oath was taken against Morgoth who was eventually cast out and left things open for Sauron.

Perhaps the oath is the destruction of Valyria, to free the world? However, it resulted in the Century of Blood- horror and insane fighting. Opening to door to Aegon and his descendants...

It may also refer to the maester's work to destroy the last dragons. This led to many failed horrible attempts at hatching new ones, and ultimately led to Dany and her three now taking over the world.

Lastly, it could also be a mirror of RR. He swore and oath to kill Rhaegar and the other dragonspawn, and blood and death and tragedy followed. Again paving the way for Dany to rise from the ashes of the Targaryen dynasty...

“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”

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Is Dany Sauron? May 25, 2016 19:30:09 GMT

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Post by SlyWren on May 25, 2016 19:30:09 GMT

May 25, 2016 13:15:41 GMT caliban said:

This is great. Personally I've always read Dany more as the Witch-king of Angmar. Corrupted by the power of fire, Lord of dragons, and embodiment of R'hllor.

I like it! We even have the eggs calling to her to embrace them. And the fact that when she drew of becoming/waking the dragon, she wakes to only the case of ashes. Everything destroyed. Like the Witch King was a broken, violated version of himself.

May 25, 2016 17:24:50 GMT Maester Sam said:

Exactly! Dany had no thoughts of world dominion before her dragons woke. All she wanted was to return to the house with the red door- Westeros (let alone Slaver's Bay) meant nothing to her. Yet once she became the mother of dragons, she started planning her conquest of the world.

In the show, they do have her talking of it with Drogo. And she seems to want it somewhat--but it is intensified as she gets closer and more enthralled with her dragon eggs. Once Drogo is killed and she wakes the dragons--look out!

May 25, 2016 17:24:50 GMT Maester Sam said:

Yup! In the preview for episode 6, Daario tells her she is a conqueror, and she replies "I take what is mine."

Yes--not a comforting moment.

May 25, 2016 17:24:50 GMT Maester Sam said:

Perhaps Dany is not Sauron, but what would have become of Galadriel if she had taken the ring, not knowing how it would transform her? Which would basically make her the next Sauron anyway, just as a beautiful and terrible queen, seduced by power, intending to use that power for good but failing...

Agreed--though I prefer the Princess Luna version of that quote, myself:

But--yes--I absolutely agree. Dany saw what the dragon would do--set the world aflame. And leave her with the taste of ashes in her mouth. And she woke the dragons anyway. She's not doing well with the long term slog of real reform and the anti-slavery movement. Embracing conquest--that does not bode well for her "I want to be the mother" idea.

May 25, 2016 17:24:50 GMT Maester Sam said:

It will also be VERY interesting to see how the power of the dragons transforms Tyrion, who has already begun his journey to the dark side...

Yup! Tyron seems like he's likely to end up very dark. sweetsunray is big on this idea, too, if I remember. In the show, it seems less so. But the influence of the dragons on Tyrion could be very interesting.

May 25, 2016 17:24:50 GMT Maester Sam said:

Perhaps the oath is the destruction of Valyria, to free the world? However, it resulted in the Century of Blood- horror and insane fighting. Opening to door to Aegon and his descendants...

It may also refer to the maester's work to destroy the last dragons. This led to many failed horrible attempts at hatching new ones, and ultimately led to Dany and her three now taking over the world.

Lastly, it could also be a mirror of RR. He swore and oath to kill Rhaegar and the other dragonspawn, and blood and death and tragedy followed. Again paving the way for Dany to rise from the ashes of the Targaryen dynasty...

All good options.

Though now that you bring these up, it also makes me think of the Night's Watch oath. Since the original purpose of it got lost, it's become a big problem. Pitting the free folk against the kneelers. When they really should be working together. Opening the door for potential destruction when the Walkers come.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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Post by LmL on May 24, 2016 15:17:14 GMT

Post by SlyWren on May 24, 2016 23:14:53 GMT

Post by SlyWren on May 24, 2016 23:33:27 GMT

Post by sagenadia on May 25, 2016 2:57:58 GMT

Post by Deleted on May 25, 2016 11:55:47 GMT

Post by caliban on May 25, 2016 13:15:41 GMT

Post by Maester Sam on May 25, 2016 17:24:50 GMT

Post by SlyWren on May 25, 2016 19:30:09 GMT