GRRM is on record saying he wondered what Sauron's actual motivations were. Is Dany GRRM's take on the Dark Lord? I noticed she is brushing up with R'hllorism now in the book and show. Will Dany be practicing the Dark Arts before she reaches Westeros?
GRRM is on record saying he wondered what Sauron's actual motivations were. Is Dany GRRM's take on the Dark Lord? I noticed she is brushing up with R'hllorism now in the book and show. Will Dany be practicing the Dark Arts before she reaches Westeros?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
This is fantastic, and right up my alley!! Great observation, winterbowl !!
I've been thinking (hoping?) for a while now that Dany will be the ultimate evil in the story, not the Others. In the show, they repeatedly bring up the Targaryen 'taint' and how madness runs in the family. In the books, GRRM makes it pretty clear how dragons bring nothing but death and suffering to other civilizations. Yes, the occasional Targ king was a good ruler, but most of them were not, and when they fought each other with dragons, entire armies were burned at once.
Dragonlords view conquest as a right. Fire and blood. Dragons don't plant trees. It's all right there...
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
I also agree that R'hllorism is a natural fit for Dany. It always surprised me that Valyrians didn't worship R'hllor, as their power rested in their dragons and the Fourteen Flames. I would also like this "merger" b/c it would help us define the fire in "A song of ice and fire". The ice side is pretty clear (though we may see a merger there as well, with the new King of Winter joining forces with the Night's King), but so far I can't tell if the Fire threat will come more from Dany or from R'hllor. Combining them takes out the ambiguity very nicely.
I also like your visual parallel of the Dothraki/Ironborn and the Orcs. Both are armies consisting of huge numbers of savage fighters; the Dothraki don't speak the Common Tongue so you can't even beg for mercy or try to make a deal. Mindless masses of screaming brutes, coming to extinguish all that try to resist...
Having the red priests at her disposal will further amplify Dany's power. She will be told the future, the dead of her armies can be resurrected, and they can make distant objects catch fire. Not to mention shadow babies...
Which makes me wonder about Mel. While the rest of her faith is rallying around a very plausible AA candidate, she is up in the far North with a dead bastard descended from the Kings of Winter. I can't tell if she is independent or just confused.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
GRRM is on record saying he wondered what Sauron's actual motivations were. Is Dany GRRM's take on the Dark Lord? I noticed she is brushing up with R'hllorism now in the book and show. Will Dany be practicing the Dark Arts before she reaches Westeros?
I, too, love this. At the beginning of the Silmarillion (bear with me--it's been a while since I read it), Morgoth keeps trying to break out of the song and then his discordance always gets worked back into the overall song. So, he's actually trying to disrupt and take over.
But exactly why he and Sauron do what they do is not named.
So, Dany as the dark lord whose motives are seen, known, and even sympathized with (I, at least, sympathized with her in Game)--that works really well.
I've been thinking (hoping?) for a while now that Dany will be the ultimate evil in the story, not the Others. In the show, they repeatedly bring up the Targaryen 'taint' and how madness runs in the family. In the books, GRRM makes it pretty clear how dragons bring nothing but death and suffering to other civilizations. Yes, the occasional Targ king was a good ruler, but most of them were not, and when they fought each other with dragons, entire armies were burned at once.
Dragonlords view conquest as a right. Fire and blood. Dragons don't plant trees. It's all right there...
So, instead of One Ring or Silmarils, it's a belief and reliance on the dragon? Going for the complete dominance vs. the getting along with others and leading that way?
We even have the eggs calling to Dany, not unlike the One Ring. I can't remember if the silmarils called out.
And the idea of conquest as a right--that fits with almost any conqueror, but it also fits with Sauron. Seeing the ability to do something as the right to do it.
I also like your visual parallel of the Dothraki/Ironborn and the Orcs. Both are armies consisting of huge numbers of savage fighters; the Dothraki don't speak the Common Tongue so you can't even beg for mercy or try to make a deal. Mindless masses of screaming brutes, coming to extinguish all that try to resist...
I had not thought to this, but it works. Tolkien's orcs are pure abomination. The counterfeit of Elves. But by humanizing the Ironborn and Dothraki--sea raiders and land raiders--Martin undermines the ability to dismiss them outright. I never felt sorry for an orc, myself. But I do feel for Theon and even Asha.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
GRRM is on record saying he wondered what Sauron's actual motivations were. Is Dany GRRM's take on the Dark Lord? I noticed she is brushing up with R'hllorism now in the book and show. Will Dany be practicing the Dark Arts before she reaches Westeros?
Dominion. Morgoth was always jealous of Eru, and he was the dissonant force of creative destruction that was always amalgamated back into harmony. the others of his generation were always willing to work together to create their harmony, furthering one another's goals by cooperation, while he spent all his effort trying to subvert the others to his will. this eventually led to Morgoth being banished from the song entirely.
Sauron picked up where his master left off, subtly at first, but then becoming the dark lord figure with the RoP. His goal was dominion, all creatures subservient to his will.
it appears to me (particularly for show Dany), that this isn't much different, only justified by her bloodline and therefore right to rule (she tries to learn to be a better leader, but i think her second rebirth in the Dothraki Sea will bring the fire and blood to the forefront), little difference from the end goals of Tolkiens antagonists. It is a very interesting comparison.
not so much, they just almost put a geas on those who saw them with greed in their hearts, filling them with the NEED to possess them (Thror and the arkenstone come to mind)
it appears to me (particularly for show Dany), that this isn't much different, only justified by her bloodline and therefore right to rule (she tries to learn to be a better leader, but i think her second rebirth in the Dothraki Sea will bring the fire and blood to the forefront), little difference from the end goals of Tolkiens antagonists. It is a very interesting comparison.
Yup! And would fit with the wasting of the Dothraki sea and everything else she sees when she has that dream about waking the dragon before she does the pyre. All is well until the dragon comes and then the world is aflame. And she wakes to the taste of ashes in her mouth.
not so much, they just almost put a geas on those who saw them with greed in their hearts, filling them with the NEED to possess them (Thror and the arkenstone come to mind)
Right! Feanor and all that. I forgot. Thanks!
So, yes, dragons work that way in the stories, no question. As do dragon eggs--otherwise they wouldn't be so valuable just as eggs.
It's kind of an odd twist--in a lot of old stories, dragons are the avaricious ones. Collecting gold and gems that they themselves can't really use but they keep it all from others. Consuming, not sharing. Destroying anyone who tries to take any part of their hoard--Tolkien definitely plays with this with Smaug.
But in this case, it's the humans who hoard the power via dragons.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
winterbowl,Maester Sam,SlyWren,tzalaran,Ooh, nice observations! The things I can add are questions. The Elves paid the price for the defeat of Morgoth, and again for the first defeat of Sauron. That's what provoked the creation of the Rings of Power. So who and what provoked the creation of the dragons in this story? voice and others (sorry for the pun) have proposed theories for the creation of the Others. I know there is a theory that the Citadel killed off the Dragons; somewhere I recall a theory involving the Starry Wisdom Sept becoming the Maesters. Does anyone else recall who wrote it? That would bring us to "Maester and Greenseer must unite" from the 1993 letter, I guess?
Last Edit: May 22, 2016 13:16:52 GMT by Deleted: Forgot to tag everyone
The things I can add are questions. The Elves paid the price for the defeat of Morgoth, and again for the first defeat of Sauron. That's what provoked the creation of the Rings of Power. So who and what provoked the creation of the dragons in this story?
The Valyrians say they "found" the dragons, right? At least in some of the stories. But other stories have myths of creation--the moon splitting, their coming from shadow.
Since in Martinlandia, weapons are usually of human/sentient manufacture, I'm thinking there's a chance dragons were either created or transformed from other forms--like some say the Valyrians (or others) transformed wyverns, right?
In Septon Barth's Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns, he speculated that the bloodmages of Valyria used wyvern stock to create dragons. Though the bloodmages were alleged to have experimented mightily with their unnatural arts, this claim is considered far-fetched by most maesters, among them Maester Vanyon's Against the Unnatural contains certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to be a power. World Book: Beyond the Free Cities: Sothyros.
Even if the Valyrians didn't "make" the dragons at first, the idea that they were magical alterations of existing animals would be interesting. And fit with how Dany wakes her eggs--to live, her dragons require blood magic.
Making the dragons nuclear weapons. Like Balrogs, a bit.
I know there is a theory that the Citadel killed off the Dragons;
Yup! And given the stuff in the World Book about Valyrians needing blood magic to maintain the fourteen flames, seems like maintaining the dragons might have required magics. Let alone producing them. So, if the Maesters fought that, it might be like the Elves fighting Sauron.
Though now, in my head, Marwyn is trying to flirt with Galadriel. It's not going well.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
The things I can add are questions. The Elves paid the price for the defeat of Morgoth, and again for the first defeat of Sauron. That's what provoked the creation of the Rings of Power. So who and what provoked the creation of the dragons in this story?
The Valyrians say they "found" the dragons, right? At least in some of the stories. But other stories have myths of creation--the moon splitting, their coming from shadow.
Since in Martinlandia, weapons are usually of human/sentient manufacture, I'm thinking there's a chance dragons were either created or transformed from other forms--like some say the Valyrians (or others) transformed wyverns, right?
In Septon Barth's Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns, he speculated that the bloodmages of Valyria used wyvern stock to create dragons. Though the bloodmages were alleged to have experimented mightily with their unnatural arts, this claim is considered far-fetched by most maesters, among them Maester Vanyon's Against the Unnatural contains certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to be a power. World Book: Beyond the Free Cities: Sothyros.
Even if the Valyrians didn't "make" the dragons at first, the idea that they were magical alterations of existing animals would be interesting. And fit with how Dany wakes her eggs--to live, her dragons require blood magic.
Making the dragons nuclear weapons. Like Balrogs, a bit.
i agree. i don't have the world book, and can't speculate further than the blood magic roots. Euron's horn seems to be related to blood magic, and if it controls dragons like he believes, this links the formation and control of dragons to Valyrian blood magic roots to me.
somewhere I recall a theory involving the Starry Wisdom Sept becoming the Maesters. Does anyone else recall who wrote it?
Is that one of LmL 's ideas? I was looking at his arguments on the church of starry wisdom recently, but I can't remember if this was part of it.
It's an idea we discussed in the comment threads of one of my subsequent GEotD essays. There are a lot of parallels between Starry Wisdom Church and the Faith, certainly. There's a lot to think whatever footprint the Bloodstone Emperor's GEotD people left in Westeros was centered around Oldtown, the center of the Faith and the Citadel, another place I suspect is infiltrated by the COSW (cough cough, Marywn, cough). As for the Faith, I think we are seeing signs that their faith may have evolved over time. Read about the Andals when they first came over vs where the Faith is now... its come a long way. The Starrier ideas may have crept in after they came to Westeros, who knows. It's pretty speculative so I haven't written a ton about it, but there's a lot of similar starry ideas.
Guys, I just have to say, I have no idea where that cool image came from in my comment above. I have never seen it before and I am baffled as to how it got in my post. But it's cool! Weird.
Guys, I just have to say, I have no idea where that cool image came from in my comment above. I have never seen it before and I am baffled as to how it got in my post. But it's cool! Weird.
HA! That's @morrigansraven's avatar. I think it got blown up when you quoted--the site does that some times.
And yes, it is cool. If I remember rightly, she did it herself.
It's an idea we discussed in the comment threads of one of my subsequent GEotD essays. There are a lot of parallels between Starry Wisdom Church and the Faith, certainly. There's a lot to think whatever footprint the Bloodstone Emperor's GEotD people left in Westeros was centered around Oldtown, the center of the Faith and the Citadel, another place I suspect is infiltrated by the COSW (cough cough, Marywn, cough). As for the Faith, I think we are seeing signs that their faith may have evolved over time. Read about the Andals when they first came over vs where the Faith is now... its come a long way. The Starrier ideas may have crept in after they came to Westeros, who knows. It's pretty speculative so I haven't written a ton about it, but there's a lot of similar starry ideas.
Excellent! Always good to know I'm not completely insane.
And yes--there's a trace of stars as identity and/or wisdom throughout the novels. You know my Jon take. But Dany has some, too. Especially in Dance with Quaithe. I spent a few spare moments trying to figure it all out and if I ever get there I'll put it up, but right now, it's more a collection of images--stars calling to Dany to remember who she is.
Jon had a specific constellation I could structurally pin down--Sword of the Morning. Dany sees Quaithe as a starry mask. A woman in a mask of stars--I can play with that in a lot of ways, but can't find one clear bit of evidence.
But in light of the Sauron idea, Tolkien does talk about the nature of specific stars. And hopefully someone who remembers the Silmarillion will remember this for certain, but I thought the Silmarils were supposed to be star like, no? And tied to the white tree.
One way or another, the Elves speak of the stars often as positive. I can't think of a way the stars become a negative in Tolkien. Whereas in Martin, the Church of Starry Wisdom isn't innately positive.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
i agree. i don't have the world book, and can't speculate further than the blood magic roots. Euron's horn seems to be related to blood magic, and if it controls dragons like he believes, this links the formation and control of dragons to Valyrian blood magic roots to me.
YUP! And given the events on the show, seems like the Others were definitely made with blood magic, too. A dragon glass knife to make an ice dragon. Which makes me think it more likely that the dragons might be a magically enhanced version of another living animal.
I can't think of a blood magic in Tolkien. But we do have Feanor's oath--to fight anyone and continually engage in war until all of the silmarils are returned. It resulted in horror and insane fighting. Tolkien compared it to biblically bad oaths or something. Like the oath was the abomination.
So, perhaps that's a potential parallel with the Bloodstone Emperor's blood betrayal.
How that ties to Sauron? Not sure. But the oath was taken against Morgoth who was eventually cast out and left things open for Sauron.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Guys, I just have to say, I have no idea where that cool image came from in my comment above. I have never seen it before and I am baffled as to how it got in my post. But it's cool! Weird.
HA! That's Morrigan's avatar. I think it got blown up when you quoted--the site does that some times.
And yes, it is cool. If I remember rightly, she did it herself.
Yup, it's mine, SlyWren . I have no idea how it jumped into your post, LmL . Birds fly where they will, I guess! Glad you both like it. PS: just read your reddit essay about the child's snow knights, LmL. Holy crow, what an amazing catch!
But in light of the Sauron idea, Tolkien does talk about the nature of specific stars. And hopefully someone who remembers the Silmarillion will remember this for certain, but I thought the Silmarils were supposed to be star like, no? And tied to the white tree.
Yes, the light came from the two holy trees. The only celestial light was starlight. The trees were killed by a giant spider. After the Silmarils were lost, the Vala made the Sun and the Moon to approximate the light because men had awoken and were afraid of the dark. Long Night prototype, complete with darkening skies and spiders, lol!