Yup. That's what I was thinking too. I really don't want the first faceless man to be imbued with old gods-y kind of powers, but it would explain how this first faceless man was able to be "no one."
True but it all seems to point to that.I mean how did he hear the prayers of everyone slave and masters?
That would also be cool. I could see GRRM doing something like that. He better not, or at least, if he does, he better let Arya win, but I could definitely see him pulling that kind of a switch.
And it would line up even more of the traits.The FM have a set of codes and Arya does continually break out of it she is anti their authority.She has still kept a bit of herself in needle something she wasn't suppose to do...using what they've taught her to trick them.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Yup. That's what I was thinking too. I really don't want the first faceless man to be imbued with old gods-y kind of powers, but it would explain how this first faceless man was able to be "no one."
True but it all seems to point to that.I mean how did he hear the prayers of everyone slave and masters?
That would also be cool. I could see GRRM doing something like that. He better not, or at least, if he does, he better let Arya win, but I could definitely see him pulling that kind of a switch.
And it would line up even more of the traits.The FM have a set of codes and Arya does continually break out of it she is anti their authority.She has still kept a bit of herself in needle something she wasn't suppose to do...using what they've taught her to trick them.
Yup. The compass is strong with that girl. Always pointing North.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
True but it all seems to point to that.I mean how did he hear the prayers of everyone slave and masters?
And it would line up even more of the traits.The FM have a set of codes and Arya does continually break out of it she is anti their authority.She has still kept a bit of herself in needle something she wasn't suppose to do...using what they've taught her to trick them.
Yup. The compass is strong with that girl. Always pointing North.
I think she has the makings of a player,taking matters into her hand utilizing her skills an upgrade from Vary's skills.As we were talking about the FM and the connection with the Weirwoods it occured to me that as far we know there hasn't been a woman in the weirnet atleast human have we.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Must say, it really feels like you two are on to something. It would be a perfect parallel for Arya, and a possible reason why she, like the first FM, might be able to break the mold and free herself from bondage.
The HoBaWs have become rather dogmatic and two-faced. They are even arranged in a system not unlike the original Valyrian owner-to-slave hierarchy they originally sought to escape. Hmm ...It reminds me of a certain forum. LOL
Yep i think Arya is poised to out Trickster the Tricksters.By the way they must know she's a Warg right? This can go two ways depending on their knowledge of her other abilities.I mean we can look at the HOB&W as a conceptual replica of the mines of Valyria and her being the "No one" of this dispensation to take that next step,but -and this is a guess based on the current convo-maybe she like the original FM was extraordinary.
Or maybe they do know and are poised to utilize her in someway.Anyway we look at it Arya is in a unique position because she unique.A Trickster getting the training to do it better.But is she going to be someone's tool in the game or is she going to be a player herself in the game?
I think that they know she is a warg, I feel that they know she won't become no one and will attempt to manipulate her into doing their bidding. PJ talks a bit about this in his Faceless Men series. I like the concepts even if I don't agree with the conclusions.
I also think that the Waif is going to take Arya's face and Needle and head to Westeros in order to cause some mayhem.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Yep i think Arya is poised to out Trickster the Tricksters.By the way they must know she's a Warg right? This can go two ways depending on their knowledge of her other abilities.I mean we can look at the HOB&W as a conceptual replica of the mines of Valyria and her being the "No one" of this dispensation to take that next step,but -and this is a guess based on the current convo-maybe she like the original FM was extraordinary.
Or maybe they do know and are poised to utilize her in someway.Anyway we look at it Arya is in a unique position because she unique.A Trickster getting the training to do it better.But is she going to be someone's tool in the game or is she going to be a player herself in the game?
I think that they know she is a warg, I feel that they know she won't become no one and will attempt to manipulate her into doing their bidding. PJ talks a bit about this in his Faceless Men series. I like the concepts even if I don't agree with the conclusions.
I also think that the Waif is going to take Arya's face and Needle and head to Westeros in order to cause some mayhem.
Or there's a possibility they lose her altogether to another.I don't have the quote( if someone can post it please do) but remember when Arya was dreaming she was having her wolfdreams a Weirwoods was calling to her and she kept runing away from it.I don't think its a "coinkydink" that the Kindly man and BR loked alike.That may be something that Arya might find possitively familiar if the Greenseers decide to make a power grab for her.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
The Faceless and the Greenseers/Skinchangers have the most in common with the Tricksters of myths;both for what they are doing and what they are capable of doing with their powers.Other interesting observations of these groups is that they are a singular unit that comprises of individuals that have come out of and endured oppression of some sort. They are the forgotten,the cast away ..... another form of "No one" born from,not just the physical but mental.I will place some emphasis on this...These guys are the ultimate "No ones."
While Littlefinger and if one looks closely, Varys, are easily identifiable as trickster figures, the connection to Faceless Men and Greenseers/skinchangers is less obvious - and I think you're absolutely right about this. Thanks for bringing this into focus! I love your breakdown of the 'gods' as well. I recall GM saying we won't be seeing any gods in the series and this is probably the reason why
Since I grew up on Kweku Anansi stories, it did occur to me that this trickster Spider might be a model for Varys the Spider. He is helpful but also cunning and often does things to further his own interests. Sometimes his exploits backfire on him in a major way. Nevertheless, his tales can also be seen in terms of parables and in African tradition, the figure is synonymous with eloquency and wisdom. I created a digital version of an Ananse story for my son years ago - you can have a look here
Perhaps the significance of Ananse stories in respect of the African diaspora is more fitting to Vary's role and the narrative in general. I'll just quote straight from the Wiki here:
In the Caribbean Anansi is often celebrated as a symbol of slave resistance and survival. Anansi is able to turn the table on his powerful oppressors using his cunning and trickery, a model of behaviour utilised by slaves to gain the upper-hand within the confines of the plantation power structure. Anansi is also believed to have played a multi-functional role in slaves’ lives, as well as inspiring strategies of resistance the tales enabled slaves to establish a sense of continuity with their African past and offered them the means to transform and assert their identity within the boundaries of captivity.
This is very much in line with your observations on trickster figures arising in response to oppressive conditions. As you point out, Varys and LF are different in their modus operandi. Does LF parallel the Faceless Men, while Varys mirrors greenseers/skinchangers?
The author differentiates between fools and tricksters and I'm wondering if we can discern a progression from the fool to the trickster by examining relevant characters. Patchface is a fool who speaks truths no one understands, Moon Boy speaks truths with impunity, the classic fool. Butterbumps goes one further down the road to the trickster archetype - he sings to cover up a conversation. Next in line would be Varys perhaps - changing his appearance, carrying out clandestine operations to achieve his goals. Littlefinger seems to top this list. Where would Tyrion fit in? He is very much associated with the fool. We may see him taking on more of the trickster role in the future.
Or maybe they do know and are poised to utilize her in someway.Anyway we look at it Arya is in a unique position because she unique.A Trickster getting the training to do it better.But is she going to be someone's tool in the game or is she going to be a player herself in the game?
I always felt one of the main aim Arya's training was to eradicate her potential as a warg. The focus is on her to relinquish her identity as a Stark, as Arya Stark, and part of that is her she-wolf status and potential to skinchange her wolf. All her training, especially when you consider her time as Blind Beth, is geared to enhancing her senses to the point where warging becomes obsolete, methinks. As Blind Beth, she finds her way through the dark, learns to identify things by making use of smell, touch, taste. No sight involved at all. Greenseeing and warging is all about sight, about merging with another sentient being to see through its eyes! But Arya's training has honed her senses to the extent that she does not need to rely on sight at all.
In fact, Arya has never skinchanged anything. She's experienced wolf-dreams, like Bran did before his third eye opened, before he was able to consciously warg his wolf. She never skinchanged the cats either. What happened there was a spontaneous telepathic connection between her and the cat. No mingling of spirits. When Bran skinchanges Hodor, Summer or the weirwood, he always falls into a trance. But Arya never falls into a trance. She's wide awake, her spirit does not need to leave her body or merge while she's seeing through the cat's eyes, and that's the difference. And I think this is the power the FM are looking for. A telepathic connection without the need to warg. And she has achieved that but they don't know it because she never told. But I'm getting off-topic here.
Whatever her true abilities may be, I don't expect her to dedicate them to the service of the FM. In the WoW Mercy chapter, we see her kill Raff the Sweetling, someone she knows and someone on her list. That's breaking the rules FM are supposed to follow. She's not supposed to be taking out people she knows, people who have not been chosen for the 'gift' but she does so anyway. In the show's version of events, she's punished for killing Boros and in the last episode she decides not to poison the actress. She'll be doing her own thing with her new talents, whatever they exactly are and mean. Maybe taking the trickster archetype to a new and different level?
Really enjoyed this post, lots of food for thought
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While Littlefinger and if one looks closely, Varys, are easily identifiable as trickster figures, the connection to Faceless Men and Greenseers/skinchangers is less obvious - and I think you're absolutely right about this. Thanks for bringing this into focus! I love your breakdown of the 'gods' as well. I recall GM saying we won't be seeing any gods in the series and this is probably the reason why
I this to be 100% the case.In essence gods that aren't gods just men who by being super smart or some extra ump in the magical sense play at being them,conciously in the case of the Greenseers or not the FM and people like Varys and LF.Its actually pretty genius and reminds me of how the Gaould from the Stargate series were so successful.
This is very much in line with your observations on trickster figures arising in response to oppressive conditions. As you point out, Varys and LF are different in their modus operandi. Does LF parallel the Faceless Men, while Varys mirrors greenseers/skinchangers?
The author differentiates between fools and tricksters and I'm wondering if we can discern a progression from the fool to the trickster by examining relevant characters. Patchface is a fool who speaks truths no one understands, Moon Boy speaks truths with impunity, the classic fool. Butterbumps goes one further down the road to the trickster archetype - he sings to cover up a conversation. Next in line would be Varys perhaps - changing his appearance, carrying out clandestine operations to achieve his goals. Littlefinger seems to top this list. Where would Tyrion fit in? He is very much associated with the fool. We may see him taking on more of the trickster role in the future.
I don't know if there's a one to one parallel for LF and Varys to the greenseers or the faceless men beyond the trickster archetype that they all have in common.I may be missing something though,i don't know how the connections would work though one to one.Its still hard to really peg what LF really wants.What's his angle and end game.Whatever it is i think he wants to be a man behind the curtain that's where he thrives.I'm thinking his dog in the fight is Sansa.
I am glad you brought up the wise foll aspect of the Trickster and its something worth looking at to determine who could be along that path.The Patchface angle is probably the most interesting considering.He could morph into Trickster.It would be interesting to how far his autonomy goes.
I always felt one of the main aim Arya's training was to eradicate her potential as a warg. The focus is on her to relinquish her identity as a Stark, as Arya Stark, and part of that is her she-wolf status and potential to skinchange her wolf. All her training, especially when you consider her time as Blind Beth, is geared to enhancing her senses to the point where warging becomes obsolete, methinks. As Blind Beth, she finds her way through the dark, learns to identify things by making use of smell, touch, taste. No sight involved at all. Greenseeing and warging is all about sight, about merging with another sentient being to see through its eyes! But Arya's training has honed her senses to the extent that she does not need to rely on sight at all.
I think Arya training as "no one" has enabled her to be FM2.0 .Her identity still and always intact has been evident which means she fooled them or they know and is allowing that evolution to continue.Connecting the FMs origin possibly being connected to Skinchanging and the KM BR imagery tells me there is a connection and some involvement from the GS.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
"And the seventh face . . . the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. It made Catelyn uneasy. She would get scant comfort there."
Wanted to add this little gem from Cat in ACOK's
The Stranger "Death" was No one and how much is it associated with everyone we've talked about so far.Aot.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Wow, wolfmaid, what a neat OP! I wish I had read this before starting my Greenseer/Many Faced God thread (over in Inversions & Parallels). Lots of similar conclusions - great minds think alike.
This can't go without saying.....The greenseers are posing as "gods" they know that people who kneel before them think they are praying to gods.How would someone feel if they found out they were praying to Ned's Stark little boy? Or a Targ who was sent to the Wall or how many soul that walked the earth killing,scheming etc.Tricksters.And the worse part is one can never know if their influence is self serving or for the benefit of all. Skinchangers have influenced behaviors by speaking through Crows.....Jon Snows's elsection to Lord Commander,whatever may happen to Theon,saving Sam's life from Wights.The have the ability to influence people's choices......And they are seen as dieties,but they are people,extraordinary people yes,but still people.
This is interesting and a little different from my own interpretation, in which greenseers see themselves as Instruments of the Old Gods rather than the Old Gods themselves. Either one would work, of course, and at this point we have no way of knowing which it is. They certainly are the ones who hear - and sometimes answer- the First Men's prayers. But do they answer b/c they think they are gods, or are they like the faceless men in believing that they serve their gods by answering prayers to these gods?
As for that last line, I am starting to believe that there are no actual gods at all in ASOIAF - only magically powerful people who are the Instruments of the gods and answer prayers to them. It seems almost certain that this is the case for the Old Gods and for Him of Many Faces (in the latter case we are flat out told it is so), but I suspect there is no R'hllor either, only powerful Red Priests who think they are serving him.
While I agree that it is possible for any of these Instruments/Tricksters to take the next step and pretend to BE a god, I'm not sure if that is very common, or an exception. We certainly have one clear example of such, in Euron Greyjoy.
We see here that there's an image being repeated here.A man that looks like a corpse,so we have association with the dead,one eye with Weirwoods in the mix.I think this is GRRM'd way of saying we are dealing with the same power.The greenseers at their core concept in this world are the Many faced god as they can wear any face,any skin and the Many faced god at its core is a Trickster.Why? They are posing as gods.
Yes, and all 3 "dead men" (BR, Beric, Kindly Man) at one time or another got a hold of a Stark child. Surely this is not a coincidence...
I wonder if Euron wears an eyepatch so that he can pretend to be a one-eyed corpse like the others??
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
rue but it all seems to point to that.I mean how did he hear the prayers of everyone slave and masters?
Well he could have had a glass candle, or maybe some warlock wine smuggled into the mines? Or maybe he was related to Mel, and could see things in the flames. Sounds like there were plenty of flames around.
I think she has the makings of a player,taking matters into her hand utilizing her skills an upgrade from Vary's skills.As we were talking about the FM and the connection with the Weirwoods it occured to me that as far we know there hasn't been a woman in the weirnet atleast human have we.
A player yes, but on which team? Her story has been about loss, death, hate, and revenge. She is empty inside, even if she has traces of Arya remaining. She is the lone wolf. IMO, it wouldn't fit her arc to follow her show plot, which seems to be leading up to her avenging her family and then joining Jon to fight for the dawn. Lame. It seems much more likely that she will fight for Team Death somehow, just like Bran. But knowing GRRM, I'm not even sure that this is the "wrong" side to be on...
I did hear a cool theory the other day, from a show watcher, that I had not come across before. Who is Arya's hero? Nymeria of the ten thousand ships. What did Nymeria do? She realized that the war was LOST, and she gathered up the survivors and sailed away. Arya has already witnessed the destruction and misery of war, in her travels around Westeros. She knows better than anyone what happens to civilians when lords play their game of thrones. Maybe she goes back, but rather than join the fight, she gathers up those who remain, steals a fleet (Euron's? Dany's? Redwyne's?) and sails away - maybe even to the west, as suggested in the show. Talk about a bittersweet ending...
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Well he could have had a glass candle, or maybe some warlock wine smuggled into the mines? Or maybe he was related to Mel, and could see things in the flames. Sounds like there were plenty of flames around.
I like the simpler answer.If we consider that the 3rd eye seems to somehow be triggered "in" darkness it may well have been that in addition to if he had a glass candle or being a skinchanger himself.
Either way he would still for whatever reason be perpetrating a role.
A player yes, but on which team? Her story has been about loss, death, hate, and revenge. She is empty inside, even if she has traces of Arya remaining. She is the lone wolf. IMO, it wouldn't fit her arc to follow her show plot, which seems to be leading up to her avenging her family and then joining Jon to fight for the dawn. Lame. It seems much more likely that she will fight for Team Death somehow, just like Bran. But knowing GRRM, I'm not even sure that this is the "wrong" side to be on...
Who knows which one? I've longed believed that in this story choice is one defining attribute that makes te outcme of this series not so telegraphed.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Who knows which one? I've longed believed that in this story choice is one defining attribute that makes te outcme of this series not so telegraphed.
Are you saying Lyanna didn't get wet the second the crown was laid on her lap? LOL
Sorry, sorry. To your point, and Maester Sam's, I can only agree. Arya is her own person, and she will do what she wants. That's what makes her interesting. She does hold in her hand a compass-needle that points ever northward, and Jon is the person she misses the most, so I do hope there will be a reunion. But I agree that it would be kinda lame if she just joins the NW as a sworn sister. (But I'd still take that over BC's fantasy. LOL)
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Are you saying Lyanna didn't get wet the second the crown was laid on her lap? LOL
Sorry, sorry. To your point, and Maester Sam's, I can only agree. Arya is her own person, and she will do what she wants. That's what makes her interesting. She does hold in her hand a compass-needle that points ever northward, and Jon is the person she misses the most, so I do hope there will be a reunion. But I agree that it would be kinda lame if she just joins the NW as a sworn sister. (But I'd still take that over BC's fantasy. LOL)
Oh i definitely agree.I actually believe that Arya is going to head to the Wall as a boy. I don't know though if her end would echo Danny Flint.I do hope not,but Arya herself is also a trickster.She became one by force,became one after tutelage and maybe she will become one by choice and head to the Wall.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
I like the simpler answer.If we consider that the 3rd eye seems to somehow be triggered "in" darkness it may well have been that in addition to if he had a glass candle or being a skinchanger himself.
Oh sure, he could have had "the gift" of the third eye - I just meant he didn't necessarily have to be Westerosi. He could have been from Lorath, for example, where the priests wore hoods in the maze to open their third eye. It seems that this power is not limited to First Men, necessarily.
But either way, I feel fairly confident that we'll never find out for sure, since we have already been told he was no one.
Who knows which one? I've longed believed that in this story choice is one defining attribute that makes te outcme of this series not so telegraphed.
I agree. There is no way to predict where her arc will lead...but given the character development we've seen, I would be surprised if she becomes a badass soldier on Team Stark and helps save the world. I do expect she will reunite with Jon in some way - but will she be sent there to assassinate someone? Or will she join the Watch (as a boy, like you suggested, which is a really cool idea!) - but in that case, will Jon know it's her? Or will it be darker than that, i.e. her being sent by Death to help control the ice spiders with her skinchanging abilities... NQ 2.0? Leading the LC astray? So many possibilities!
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Oh sure, he could have had "the gift" of the third eye - I just meant he didn't necessarily have to be Westerosi. He could have been from Lorath, for example, where the priests wore hoods in the maze to open their third eye. It seems that this power is not limited to First Men, necessarily.
But either way, I feel fairly confident that we'll never find out for sure, since we have already been told he was no one.
Oh i see what you mean,for sure that could be the case and most likely the case given where they were and the innate nature of probably some.Hahaha very true,i just hope that isn't Arya's fate when this is over.You know be No one among the other No one that will end up in a mass grave.
I agree. There is no way to predict where her arc will lead...but given the character development we've seen, I would be surprised if she becomes a badass soldier on Team Stark and helps save the world. I do expect she will reunite with Jon in some way - but will she be sent there to assassinate someone? Or will she join the Watch (as a boy, like you suggested, which is a really cool idea!) - but in that case, will Jon know it's her? Or will it be darker than that, i.e. her being sent by Death to help control the ice spiders with her skinchanging abilities... NQ 2.0? Leading the LC astray? So many possibilities!
Yeah i don't see Arya as the conventional soldier,but if she does hear about "The bastard getting himself shanked by his own men." I could that being the reason for her to go. Voice i think it was and i were talking on Heresy- a little thought we threw- That Arya might be that rose growing out the chink in the wall and the sweetness she brings is death.How it ends for her.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"