I believe it was a pun directed at Gerold Hightower
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I don't think it's that crackpot, tbh. And guess what? That would (sortof) follow the comics! LOL The comics take it a step further, though, in terms of the "rebirth" - the person being reborn is actually the same one over and over, just in different forms.
A long time ago at the W I put out the idea that Dany's memories are unreliable because they aren't all HER memories - they're remnants of someone else's.
Hmmm. Memories from another life... or of her previous life before she was Daenerys? I can think of two other examples of characters remembering something that was so long ago, or seems that way, that it's only half a vague memory, half forgotten and not necessarily accurate. 1) "Melony. Lot 7". Recurrent memory from her earlier life. She is no longer this person, yet she remembers. 2) Mercy. Mercy wakes up in the morning and has to remind herself who and where she is. Once she does this, she goes about her life pretty normally... though she has vague memories of a night wolf and a home she lost long ago. I would expect that, if a faceless man or woman stayed in a particular role for long enough, they would become that person for all practical purposes. It's not super likely that Dany is a FM who adopted her identity for real... but wouldn't it be cool if she was?
We do, of course, have other unreliable narrators, including Sansa and Bran. But I do think Dany is different; she isn't mis-remembering a one-time event like a kiss, but her whole belief of what her childhood was is apparently incorrect.
Something else that's fishy: those servants that stole Darry's things after he died, and cast out Dany and Viserys. If they were willing to beggar these kids and leave them with nothing- why not sell them? Robert would have paid a lot, I imagine. And would Darry not have made plans for after his death? It seems irresponsible to take care of two young children and leave them on the street after you die. Also, they lived in a big stone house. Not a little cottage somewhere, but a big house with a red door. Did Darry buy a house somewhere, or was he renting? If money was a concern, why not a smaller house? Why didn't he have to move around like they did after he died? There were even servants! It really sounds like Darry blew through all his money living a nice life in a fancy house, being waited on, etc, but made NO plans for the future. A little weird, no?
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Something else that's fishy: those servants that stole Darry's things after he died, and cast out Dany and Viserys. If they were willing to beggar these kids and leave them with nothing- why not sell them? Robert would have paid a lot, I imagine. And would Darry not have made plans for after his death? It seems irresponsible to take care of two young children and leave them on the street after you die. Also, they lived in a big stone house. Not a little cottage somewhere, but a big house with a red door. Did Darry buy a house somewhere, or was he renting? If money was a concern, why not a smaller house? Why didn't he have to move around like they did after he died? There were even servants! It really sounds like Darry blew through all his money living a nice life in a fancy house, being waited on, etc, but made NO plans for the future. A little weird, no?
Dany literally contradicts this story in her very next paragraph
She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, halfblind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her “Little Princess” and sometimes “My Lady,” and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.
They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper’s hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one. At first the magisters and archons and merchant princes were pleased to welcome the last Targaryens to their homes and tables, but as the years passed and the Usurper continued to sit upon the Iron Throne, doors closed and their lives grew meaner. Years past they had been forced to sell their last few treasures, and now even the coin they had gotten from Mother’s crown had gone. In the alleys and wine sinks of Pentos, they called her brother “the beggar king.” Dany did not want to know what they called her.
The servants supposedly stole all their money, but Dany and Viserys still had enough treasure between them to live for 8 years (app says Darry died when Dany's 5 and she's 13 in AGOT) before their money finally ran out?
Like if you're already stealing their money, why didn't you steal their treasures as well? Seems like the treasures were worth far more than the money as there was only a "little" money left, but the treasures were enough to live for 8 years without doing any work. If you were actually going to rob them, you'd take the treasures. Or simply both. There's no real reason to just take the money.
Plus like you said Robert could have simply made whoever turned them into lords (as he was willing to do in AGOT for Jorah) if they were really looking to become rich.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Something else that's fishy: those servants that stole Darry's things after he died, and cast out Dany and Viserys. If they were willing to beggar these kids and leave them with nothing- why not sell them? Robert would have paid a lot, I imagine. And would Darry not have made plans for after his death? It seems irresponsible to take care of two young children and leave them on the street after you die. Also, they lived in a big stone house. Not a little cottage somewhere, but a big house with a red door. Did Darry buy a house somewhere, or was he renting? If money was a concern, why not a smaller house? Why didn't he have to move around like they did after he died? There were even servants! It really sounds like Darry blew through all his money living a nice life in a fancy house, being waited on, etc, but made NO plans for the future. A little weird, no?
Dany literally contradicts this story in her very next paragraph
She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, halfblind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her “Little Princess” and sometimes “My Lady,” and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.
They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper’s hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one. At first the magisters and archons and merchant princes were pleased to welcome the last Targaryens to their homes and tables, but as the years passed and the Usurper continued to sit upon the Iron Throne, doors closed and their lives grew meaner. Years past they had been forced to sell their last few treasures, and now even the coin they had gotten from Mother’s crown had gone. In the alleys and wine sinks of Pentos, they called her brother “the beggar king.” Dany did not want to know what they called her.
The servants supposedly stole all their money, but Dany and Viserys still had enough treasure between them to live for 8 years (app says Darry died when Dany's 5 and she's 13 in AGOT) before their money finally ran out?
Like if you're already stealing their money, why didn't you steal their treasures as well? Seems like the treasures were worth far more than the money as there was only a "little" money left, but the treasures were enough to live for 8 years without doing any work. If you were actually going to rob them, you'd take the treasures. Or simply both. There's no real reason to just take the money.
Plus like you said Robert could have simply made whoever turned them into lords (as he was willing to do in AGOT for Jorah) if they were really looking to become rich.
A little bit of a crackpot, but it's what popped into my head from reading your post. It sounds like someone wanted the kids to be desperate... but not too desperate. Makes you wonder if Illyrio, Varys, and company weren't secretly arranging for things to continue as they were all the while. It almost makes me wonder if... I'll speculate after I state the obvious.
Dany's delayed her discussion and reconnecting with Illyrio... I have a feeling that when they do meet again... that some important truths are going to be coming out.
Like what would happen if Illyrio pulled out her mother's crown upon meeting her again--having bought it from whoever Viserys sold it to--or saying so at least... when the truth was... Illyrio was the one keeping them just on the brink of survival in order to delay their movements long enough for Aegon to be ready.
A little bit of a crackpot, but it's what popped into my head from reading your post. It sounds like someone wanted the kids to be desperate... but not too desperate. Makes you wonder if Illyrio, Varys, and company weren't secretly arranging for things to continue as they were all the while. It almost makes me wonder if... I'll speculate after I state the obvious.
Well it sounds like Illyrio's been involved in Dany's life for years, when he only supposedly met her 6 months before AGOT
The fat man grew pensive. “Daenerys was half a child when she came to me, yet fairer even than my second wife, so lovely I was tempted to claim her for myself. Such a fearful, furtive thing, however, I knew I should get no joy from coupling with her. Instead I summoned a bed-warmer and fucked her vigorously until the madness passed. If truth be told, I did not think Daenerys would survive for long amongst the horselords.”
“That did not stop you selling her to Khal Drogo …”
“Dothraki neither buy nor sell. Say rather that her brother Viserys gave her to Drogo to win the khal’s friendship. A vain young man, and greedy. Viserys lusted for his father’s throne, but he lusted for Daenerys too, and was loath to give her up. The night before the princess wed he tried to steal into her bed, insisting that if he could not have her hand, he would claim her maidenhead. Had I not taken the precaution of posting guards upon her door, Viserys might have undone years of planning.”
Illyrio says that
- Dany was a half a child when he met her. She should have been only 12 at the youngest if he met her 6 months before AGOT. Which is not half a child as she was considered a grown woman by 13. Half a child would be like a 6-7 year old. - The first time he saw her he vigoursly fucked a bedwarmer that night. The like 600lb slob from AGOT isn't vigoursly fucking anything, but we do know that he was once a very fit young man and it's been over the years that he's gotten fat. It's entire possible that, oh say 6-7 years ago, that Illyio wasn't so fat and was indeed capable of vigourisly fucking somebody. - Viserys almost undid years of planning. How could he have undone years of planning if he'd only been at Illyrio's manse for 6 months? Illyrio therefore had to have been planning something far longer than before he met Dany 6 months before AGOT, or he's known Dany for far longer than 6 months.
Like what would happen if Illyrio pulled out her mother's crown upon meeting her again--having bought it from whoever Viserys sold it to--or saying so at least... when the truth was... Illyrio was the one keeping them just on the brink of survival in order to delay their movements long enough for Aegon to be ready.
This could be possible. I've always thought it extremely weird that Dany's crown is the one that Qarth gave her, when she hates the Qartheen and they hate her. It's a nice crown but like why not sell the thing and get some money (which she desperately needed for the Unsullied or for ships), or have it melted down and make your own out of the raw materials? It seems like this crown should be nothing more than a temporary crown for Dany because of who it came from, yet she's been wearing it for 4 books now. Which means to me that it's either her permanent crown (which again seems odd), or it's just a temporary crown until Dany finds a new one worth replacing it. Rhaella's crown would be the perfect thing to replace the Qartheen one.
Of course then you get into the fact like you mentioned of how the heck does she end up back with Rhaella's crown if it was "sold" years ago? That would have to be a huge coincidence, or no coincidence at all.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
A little bit of a crackpot, but it's what popped into my head from reading your post. It sounds like someone wanted the kids to be desperate... but not too desperate. Makes you wonder if Illyrio, Varys, and company weren't secretly arranging for things to continue as they were all the while. It almost makes me wonder if... I'll speculate after I state the obvious.
Well it sounds like Illyrio's been involved in Dany's life for years, when he only supposedly met her 6 months before AGOT
The fat man grew pensive. “Daenerys was half a child when she came to me, yet fairer even than my second wife, so lovely I was tempted to claim her for myself. Such a fearful, furtive thing, however, I knew I should get no joy from coupling with her. Instead I summoned a bed-warmer and fucked her vigorously until the madness passed. If truth be told, I did not think Daenerys would survive for long amongst the horselords.”
“That did not stop you selling her to Khal Drogo …”
“Dothraki neither buy nor sell. Say rather that her brother Viserys gave her to Drogo to win the khal’s friendship. A vain young man, and greedy. Viserys lusted for his father’s throne, but he lusted for Daenerys too, and was loath to give her up. The night before the princess wed he tried to steal into her bed, insisting that if he could not have her hand, he would claim her maidenhead. Had I not taken the precaution of posting guards upon her door, Viserys might have undone years of planning.”
Illyrio says that
- Dany was a half a child when he met her. She should have been only 12 at the youngest if he met her 6 months before AGOT. Which is not half a child as she was considered a grown woman by 13. Half a child would be like a 6-7 year old. - The first time he saw her he vigoursly fucked a bedwarmer that night. The like 600lb slob from AGOT isn't vigoursly fucking anything, but we do know that he was once a very fit young man and it's been over the years that he's gotten fat. It's entire possible that, oh say 6-7 years ago, that Illyio wasn't so fat and was indeed capable of vigourisly fucking somebody. - Viserys almost undid years of planning. How could he have undone years of planning if he'd only been at Illyrio's manse for 6 months? Illyrio therefore had to have been planning something far longer than before he met Dany 6 months before AGOT, or he's known Dany for far longer than 6 months.
Like what would happen if Illyrio pulled out her mother's crown upon meeting her again--having bought it from whoever Viserys sold it to--or saying so at least... when the truth was... Illyrio was the one keeping them just on the brink of survival in order to delay their movements long enough for Aegon to be ready.
This could be possible. I've always thought it extremely weird that Dany's crown is the one that Qarth gave her, when she hates the Qartheen and they hate her. It's a nice crown but like why not sell the thing and get some money (which she desperately needed for the Unsullied or for ships), or have it melted down and make your own out of the raw materials? It seems like this crown should be nothing more than a temporary crown for Dany because of who it came from, yet she's been wearing it for 4 books now. Which means to me that it's either her permanent crown (which again seems odd), or it's just a temporary crown until Dany finds a new one worth replacing it. Rhaella's crown would be the perfect thing to replace the Qartheen one.
Of course then you get into the fact like you mentioned of how the heck does she end up back with Rhaella's crown if it was "sold" years ago? That would have to be a huge coincidence, or no coincidence at all.
I agree with you on the Qartheen crown. And I think Illyrio giving her her mother's crown would be an example of his original intentions for her--to fill her mother's place as aunt-wife to her nephew-husband in his mind, and a good symbol of such an idea.
Martin also said the exiled Targaryens are a bit inspired off of the exiled Stuarts. Might be worth examining the various exiled Stuarts, and their supporters beyond Louis XIV if only as a research and comparison exercise. Good documentary to start with: The Last Stuarts.
I agree with you on the Qartheen crown. And I think Illyrio giving her her mother's crown would be an example of his original intentions for her--to fill her mother's place as aunt-wife to her nephew-husband in his mind, and a good symbol of such an idea.
Martin also said the exiled Targaryens are a bit inspired off of the exiled Stuarts. Might be worth examining the various exiled Stuarts, and their supporters beyond Louis XIV if only as a research and comparison exercise. Good documentary to start with: The Last Stuarts.
I like Dany for Empress Matilda (I like Rhaenyra for her, too). She must contend with her cousin Stephen Stannis and ultimately usher in Rhaego from Vaes Dothrak to take the throne. Then Bran Cromwell (in a miraculous medievel time warp) can sweep in and wipe her out, giving way to modern parliamentary government.
Sorry, not poking you, just tired and bored with waiting for more material
I agree with you on the Qartheen crown. And I think Illyrio giving her her mother's crown would be an example of his original intentions for her--to fill her mother's place as aunt-wife to her nephew-husband in his mind, and a good symbol of such an idea.
Martin also said the exiled Targaryens are a bit inspired off of the exiled Stuarts. Might be worth examining the various exiled Stuarts, and their supporters beyond Louis XIV if only as a research and comparison exercise. Good documentary to start with: The Last Stuarts.
I like Dany for Empress Matilda (I like Rhaenyra for her, too). She must contend with her cousin Stephen Stannis and ultimately usher in Rhaego from Vaes Dothrak to take the throne. Then Bran Cromwell (in a miraculous medievel time warp) can sweep in and wipe her out, giving way to modern parliamentary government.
Sorry, not poking you, just tired and bored with waiting for more material
I will say that I think a big part of the Southron Ambitions idea and getting all the major houses in marriage alliances with one another seems to me an attempt by someone to do the beginnings of a what became the first attempt at getting a Parliament installed in England. Only I think Jon Arryn and company would have made the argument that they would have been a Great Council who simply meets yearly, to build off of what had already been in existence.
Events conspired to undo that IMO.
For example, Jon Arryn easily is equivalent to a William Marshall figure, Robert a Henry III figure (weak at ruling), Cersei an Eleanor of Anjou figure in such a scenario--even though there are also other influences on them as well as characters that I see. At the same time, it's blatantly obvious GRRM borrowed the scenario of Simon de Montfort's revolution for Tytos being a Henry III figure while Tywin was an Edward I figure. Heck Simon's coat of arms looks awfully similar to the Reyne's coat of arms (minus the coloring).
Videos about the whole issue of Magna Carta & emergence of a Parliament movement in Medieval times...
Furthermore, Rhaegar did something that King John did that also sparked a war--in that John abducted a young teenage bride (after having the marriage with his first wife annulled, to be fair) from right under her father's nose. IIRC Isabella of Angloumene was 12, while John close to 27 or so. Her father went to the King of France to complain, and he sided with the man in order to bring the troublesome John under heel... while backing the claim of John's nephew who he just so happened to have on his side.
The big thing though is that England through all this was trying to restore what they felt was Anglo-Saxon law on the country on a scale that would limit whatever power their foreign-born kings had on them and bring them under subject of the law. Considering that I read somewhere that Robert brought back Andal law to Westeros with the deposition of the Targaryens, it makes me wonder if that was part of the reason for the Southron Ambitions plot--to bring back old laws and traditions. It would make sense why Rickard might send his son and heir to be fostered with the Dustins in Barrowton and see him as the kind of future Lord of Winterfell to bring back old Northern ways (if Andal law returns, perhaps First Men law per the Northerners could return as well). Eddard, gets sent South without the expectation that he'd inherit at all, perhaps even with the assumption that Ned might marry one of his Vale cousins to keep the ties with Jocelyn Stark's descendants strong.
In any case, I wonder if the Southron Ambitions plot might have been more about an attempt to depose Aerys, declare Rhaegar "Prince-Regent" get the Targaryen dynasty to agree that they're no longer above the law, and that old laws and practices could resume in the bargain.
It just makes me wonder if the butterfly effect, butterflied away a chance for Westeros to form an early form of a Parliamentary system, but that's me being fanciful.
Something else that's fishy: those servants that stole Darry's things after he died, and cast out Dany and Viserys. If they were willing to beggar these kids and leave them with nothing- why not sell them? Robert would have paid a lot, I imagine. And would Darry not have made plans for after his death? It seems irresponsible to take care of two young children and leave them on the street after you die.
It does. And it isn't like Darry couldn't see his days were numbered. Was he truly working alone all that time? Was Willem the last loyal royalist? Seems unlikely.
Plus like you said Robert could have simply made whoever turned them into lords (as he was willing to do in AGOT for Jorah) if they were really looking to become rich.
Yup. Doesn't add up. Unless, the servants did not know who the children were. Darry could have pretended they were his own.
Like what would happen if Illyrio pulled out her mother's crown upon meeting her again--having bought it from whoever Viserys sold it to--or saying so at least... when the truth was... Illyrio was the one keeping them just on the brink of survival in order to delay their movements long enough for Aegon to be ready.
This makes a lot of sense. There is no way Dany was a part of Illyrio's endgame. Remember, he wanted Viserys to stay at his manse after Dany's wedding. The girl was sold and delivered, and he was done with her. Only after she hatched her bride gifts did she become valuable to him.
Aegon definitely seems like Plan A, or perhaps a Plan B after Viserys' crowning at Vaes Dothrak. I lean towards Plan A though. Wiser to bet on the "son" of a musical prince beloved by the smallfolk, than the mad son of a vilified Mad King.
- Dany was a half a child when he met her. She should have been only 12 at the youngest if he met her 6 months before AGOT. Which is not half a child as she was considered a grown woman by 13. Half a child would be like a 6-7 year old.
Hmm. Not sure on this one. Half a child could be taken many ways. Half-child, half-woman...sounds like a girl on the cusp of adulthood.
- The first time he saw her he vigoursly fucked a bedwarmer that night. The like 600lb slob from AGOT isn't vigoursly fucking anything, but we do know that he was once a very fit young man and it's been over the years that he's gotten fat. It's entire possible that, oh say 6-7 years ago, that Illyio wasn't so fat and was indeed capable of vigourisly fucking somebody.
Makes sense. Check this out:
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I The palanquin slowed and stopped. The curtains were thrown back, and a slave offered a hand to help Daenerys out. His collar, she noted, was ordinary bronze. Her brother followed, one hand still clenched hard around his sword hilt. It took two strong men to get Magister Illyrio back on his feet.
The man can't rise from a palanquin on his own, but was vigorously fucking someone six months ago?
- Viserys almost undid years of planning. How could he have undone years of planning if he'd only been at Illyrio's manse for 6 months? Illyrio therefore had to have been planning something far longer than before he met Dany 6 months before AGOT, or he's known Dany for far longer than 6 months.
Definitely, but still think this would work if Viserys had only been there six months. Still, I like the idea of him knowing them (particularly him) for much longer than that. After all, how did they come to trust him so quickly? They've been on the run since Darry's death, meet Illyrio, then heed his idea to sell Dany to Drogo? Seems awfully quick.
This could be possible. I've always thought it extremely weird that Dany's crown is the one that Qarth gave her, when she hates the Qartheen and they hate her. It's a nice crown but like why not sell the thing and get some money (which she desperately needed for the Unsullied or for ships), or have it melted down and make your own out of the raw materials? It seems like this crown should be nothing more than a temporary crown for Dany because of who it came from, yet she's been wearing it for 4 books now. Which means to me that it's either her permanent crown (which again seems odd), or it's just a temporary crown until Dany finds a new one worth replacing it. Rhaella's crown would be the perfect thing to replace the Qartheen one.
Of course then you get into the fact like you mentioned of how the heck does she end up back with Rhaella's crown if it was "sold" years ago? That would have to be a huge coincidence, or no coincidence at all.
That would be cool. But, she may have kept it because it came from the Tourmaline Brotherhood. They seem antagonistic to the Thirteen. In the end, they may not bear much significance, but I can't help but think of them in a unique light. We have Black Brothers with dragonglass, white Others with crystalline swords, and a "brotherhood" in a distant land - also associated with crystal.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."