I finally thought of something original! (she said, knowing full well someone else on the board will come along and laughingly point out they came up with the same idea 10 years ago).
As for the smileys--does it say how to do so in the Welcome/site help section? If not, maybe ask Mojo.
::iwin:: Yes, that is actually pretty brilliant! I don't know if it's mentioned in @prettypig's Wild and Wacky Darry thread, but I bet she'd like it.
and yes, you are correct about the smileys/welcome section. Thanks, SW
You are too kind--really. Someone else must have thought of this.
But--back to the thread. How might this tie to Dorne? And since Darry "signed the pact" for them--if that story is true--does that pact have efficacy not just because he's their guardian but because he's Dany's father? Did the Martells know?
Not sure why that would give Darry power to sign for Viserys. But it does seem odd Viserys didn't sign for himself. Presumably he could write by then.
All of this assumes the pact is real. And that Darry may be Dany's father--none of which is currently in evidence.
Am now going back over to BB's thread. . .
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Rhaegar/Lyanna, Rhaegar/Ashara, Aerys/Lyanna, Aerys/Ashara, Rhaella/Darry, Rhaella/Rhaegar. Pretty much anything but Aerys/Rhaella. They had over 2 decades of failed children, and somehow they conceived Dany on their last night together when House Targaryen needed a new Targaryen most? Ya right.
But it's not something I came up with. I saw someone post it on Westoros like a year ago for the same reasons that Rhaella becoming pregnant exactly when she did seems extremely convenient.
We already have one supposed Targaryen born in Dorne, seems to me that the easiest thing to do is make Dany be the one born in the TOJ instead of Jon. Which solves the problem of how Dany and Jon's ages don't add up at all that Jon is born 8-9 months before Dany if you make him be born at the TOJ and Dany when she's supposed to be 9 months after the Sack as Jon should be 5-6 months older than Dany if that were the case.
I believe that Weasel Pie has also noted some great symbolism and patterns around Dany that fits with her being Rhaegar and Lyanna's child far better than Jon.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Rhaegar/Lyanna, Rhaegar/Ashara, Aerys/Lyanna, Aerys/Ashara, Rhaella/Darry, Rhaella/Rhaegar. Pretty much anything but Aerys/Rhaella. They had over 2 decades of failed children, and somehow they conceived Dany on their last night together when House Targaryen needed a new Targaryen most? Ya right.
But it's not something I came up with. I saw someone post it on Westoros like a year ago for the same reasons that Rhaella becoming pregnant exactly when she did seems extremely convenient.
That's what I get for reading too fast.
But at least I was right about no chance of my being original--now there's cold comfort.
As for the birthrates--agree that they are mushy and need to be adjusted. But will have to think on that as I now have to leave.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
markg171, can you help me figure out what you mean about the ages? Why do their ages change if they are both born at ToJ?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Why do their ages change if they are both born at ToJ?
They're not. I said if Jon is born there, but Dany is still born 9 months after the Sack on Dragonstone like she's supposed to be. That requires Jon to have been born within a month of the Sack for GRRM's statement of Jon being 8-9 months older than Dany. Which doesn't add up as the TOJ occurs after the Siege of Storm's End.
Ned says that the war had raged for a year by the Sack of King's Landing. And the Siege of Storm's End also lasts a year as well but only begins after the Battle of Ashford. And the battle of Ashford can't happen until Jon Arryn calls his banners, marches to Gulltown to fight the Battle of Gulltown, Robert then travels to Storm's End, Robert calls his banners, his bannermen arrive with their forces, Robert travels to Summerhall and fights the battles of Summerhall, Robert returns to Storm's End and goes hawking and feasting with the lords he'd just beat at Summerhall while spending enough time to win them to his cause, then travels to Ashford for the Battle of Ashford. Then the Siege of Storm's End can't begin until Mace Tyrell marches from Ashford to Storm's End.
Now if Jon Arryn calling his banners to the Sack is one year, and after the Battle of Ashford to the end of the Siege of Storm's End is also one year, then all the time between Jon Arryn calling his banners to the beginning of the Siege of Storm's End is the same amount of time between the Sack of King's Landing and the end of the Siege. That's the only way for them to have both lasted a year. Which seems like it would take months to do, not maximum a month.
Therefore if Dany is born 9 months after the Sack, and Jon's born in the TOJ which occurs after the Siege, I'd expect him to be around 5-6 months older than Dany as the TOJ would be months after the Sack, not 1. So Jon can't be 8-9 months older than Dany if he's born at the TOJ. But GRRM is the one saying Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany so the only possible conclusion is that one of them's birth date isn't right here.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Hi, remember me? I used to post here back when I had this weird thing called "spare time". LOL
Anyway, totally with mark on this timeline. I've been working out the dates based on character memory of other events, and at what time of year those events approximately occurred. I decided to do an excel timeline based on quarters instead of months, as there's a little more wiggle room. I have also included "overlap" periods because most likely some events span two quarters.
For those who are not accountants, Q1 - Jan thru March, Q2 - April thru June, Q3 - July thru Sept, Q4 - Oct-Dec.
So here's how it goes for now, feel free to add in events or tweak as necessary.
280 Q1: Rhaegar/Elia marry. Mama Martell still alive. Q2: Q3: Q4: Rhaenys born. Elia begins bedrest ~6 mos.
281 Q1 - overlap: Elia recovered. Escorted through Kingswood/Hightower injured. Arianne meets Rhaenys? Q2 - overlap: KWB defeated. (Led by Arthur Dayne, as Hightower still recovering from wound. Simon Toyne killed. Jaime knighted.) Q3 - overlap: False Spring, Tourney at Harrenhal (late Q3). (Lyanna crowned; Jaime made KG; Ashara Dayne "not long at court"). NOTE: I believe Elia made a trip to Dorne/met up with her Dornish family after Rhaenys' birth - Ashara returned to court with her at that time. Q4: Winter returns with a vengeance. Snow covers KL, Blackwater freezes.
282 Q1: Fires burn in KL, Rhaegar not there to see them. Elia and Baby Aegon on Dragonstone. Q2 - overlap: Brandon/Petyr duel. Cat's pending marriage to Brandon. Lyanna disappears. Q3: Brandon/Rickard killed. Ned betrothed to Cat. Lady Dustin married "not half a year". Overlap: Fighting already in Vale, Gulltown. Ned returns to Winterfell - Fisherman's Daughter. Battles of Ashford and Summerhall. Randall Tarly has a victory; Mace Tyrell's van marches to SE to begin siege. JonConn named Hand. 4Q: Ned gathers army, rides south. Battle of the Bells, victory at Stoney Sept. Hoster Tully wounded, Jon Arryn's heir killed. EDIT: move to Q1 283.
283 Q1: BotB, victory at Stoney Sept. Ned returns to Riverrun, double wedding. Cat pregnant. JonConn exiled. Doran Martell now Prince of Dorne. Q2: Overlap: Trident. Rhaella supposedly conceives Dany. Q3: Sack of King's Landing (this is ~one year from JA calling banners, consistent with text). Robb born (late Q3) Overlap: Siege at SE lifted (this is ~one year from Battle of Ashford, consistent with text) Q4: Tower of Joy
284 Q1: Overlap: Ned back at Winterfell (this is ~one year after marriage to Cat, consistent with text) Q2: Dany born (supposedly) Q3: Overlap: Assault on Dragonstone (this is ~one year after lifting of Siege, consistent with text) Q4:
Dany's given name day occurs earlier in the year than either Jon or Robb, meaning she is said to have been born in a prior quarter. RT's ASOIAF timeline pegs it as May, I think, and I'm also comfortable putting it in Q2.
For the timeline all of these events to be feasible and even physically possible, there has to be more than two weeks between the Trident and the Sack, and a couple of MONTHS between the Sack and the TOJ.
I am not presenting this well at all so apologize if nothing makes sense.
Post by whitewolfstark on Aug 20, 2015 20:55:23 GMT
Lyanna disappears about a fortnight after the new year of 282, so Q1, not Q2, BB.* Also Catelyn said that she married Ned in 283 a year to the date that she would have married Brandon the year before (282), so the Brandon-Catelyn marriage was to take place probably in late January or so, so yeah, Lyanna disappears very early in 282.
*I get this from how TWOIAF is written. It comments that the snows last for a fortnight after the turn of the new year, and then it proceeds to give where all the main players were at that time in order, which indicates this is where they were in "mid-January", and that's when Lyanna is taken.
Also should note that Ned and Cat marry not long after the Battle of the Bells, which occurs on New Year's day, 283. So I think it's fairly certain that Ned & Catelyn marry in Late January, not March.
Ok, anyway - I updated the BotB date. Late Jan for a Ned/Cat wedding definitely fits better with Robb's Q3 nameday.
Re: the disappearance, could you quote that passage from the WB? I know it mentions Rhaegar being on walkabout with his 6 buds, but I thought it mentioned this was when/where he BEGAN his journey that led him to the Riverlands where he fell upon Lyanna Stark, blah blah blah. I don't remember the 'a fortnight' part.
Ok, anyway - I updated the BotB date. Late Jan for a Ned/Cat wedding definitely fits better with Robb's Q3 nameday.
Re: the disappearance, could you quote that passage from the WB? I know it mentions Rhaegar being on walkabout with his 6 buds, but I thought it mentioned this was when/where he BEGAN his journey that led him to the Riverlands where he fell upon Lyanna Stark, blah blah blah. I don't remember the 'a fortnight' part.
Quite willingly:
"On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.
As cold winds hammered the city King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn.* Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands..."
The way the passage is worded, gives the impression that the time period that takes place is stated in the first paragraph. The people and events that occur in the second paragraph are what fill that time slot described in the first.
*Presumably as the snow started on the last day of 281, that the moon's turn of fires burning along the walls of the Red Keep began then (I can also imagine Brandon riding up to the Red Keep to yell "come out and die" while those fires are likely still burning).
And so while Aerys is beginning 282 with his fires trick, Rhaegar's riding out towards the Riverlands simultaneously. Somewhere in the middle of January Rhaegar & Lyanna meet up (or so we've been told) and everything changes.
And if Ned & Cat marry a year to the date that Brandon & Cat were to marry, and they married in Late January, therefore Lyanna had to have been "taken" before Late January. Ergot Lyanna was taken in mid-January.
A lot of magic travel time IMO, especially considering the harsh weather, but then again, GRRM is the worst when it comes to estimating travel times.
Yeah, I go with the Kingmonkey Theorem on that one for sure....GRRM + timelines = nope, nope, nope.
With that passage, though....sounds like Rhaegar left before the new year, so I think I need to move his departure officially to Q4 281.
I'll have to mull, and bring in the details from the duel too. There was some discussion about Littlefinger and his age, and how that fit in, but I can't recall it right now.
Makes me wonder also if the Riverlands weren't nearly as affected by the harsh winter, if KL was covered in snow and the Blackwater was frozen over but Brandon and Peter fought in the 'swirling waters' beneath the gates of Riverrun. Interesting.
Yeah, I go with the Kingmonkey Theorem on that one for sure....GRRM + timelines = nope, nope, nope.
With that passage, though....sounds like Rhaegar left before the new year, so I think I need to move his departure officially to Q4 281.
I'll have to mull, and bring in the details from the duel too. There was some discussion about Littlefinger and his age, and how that fit in, but I can't recall it right now.
Makes me wonder also if the Riverlands weren't nearly as affected by the harsh winter, if KL was covered in snow and the Blackwater was frozen over but Brandon and Peter fought in the 'swirling waters' beneath the gates of Riverrun. Interesting.
Or it occurred just before the river was frozen over.
Ok, anyway - I updated the BotB date. Late Jan for a Ned/Cat wedding definitely fits better with Robb's Q3 nameday.
Re: the disappearance, could you quote that passage from the WB? I know it mentions Rhaegar being on walkabout with his 6 buds, but I thought it mentioned this was when/where he BEGAN his journey that led him to the Riverlands where he fell upon Lyanna Stark, blah blah blah. I don't remember the 'a fortnight' part.
Your reply is gone? Do you have enable drafts on in your settings in the control panel?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I'll have to mull, and bring in the details from the duel too. There was some discussion about Littlefinger and his age, and how that fit in, but I can't recall it right now.
It's not Littlefinger's age that matters, it's Brandon's. Cat says he was 20 when he dueled Littlefinger and Ned says he was 20 when he died. And the World Book says Brandon was born in 262, so Brandon's duel and his death both occur after his birthday for him to be 20 in both.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
It's not Littlefinger's age that matters, it's Brandon's. Cat says he was 20 when he dueled Littlefinger and Ned says he was 20 when he died. And the World Book says Brandon was born in 262, so Brandon's duel and his death both occur after his birthday for him to be 20 in both.
And Littlefinger was "scarcely 15" according to Cat, and born in 268 per the wiki (yeah yeah)...which of course doesn't work as to be 15ish in 282 he would have to be born in 267 at latest, but whatever. Something unusual though, is that when LF and Ned first meet in AGOT, Ned bucksup to LF a bit and Petyr mentions Brandon "moldering in his grave some 14 years now." This conversation takes place circa mid-298, so strange that he would be a full TWO YEARS off the date of Brandon's death.
Now at first I thought it could just be a typo/consistency error, but there's another mention of Brandon's death in ACOK that also puts it happening much later than assumed. I'm trying to find it, and of course now that I need it it's nowhere.
Where did you get that Ned and Cat married a year to the date that Brandon and Cat were supposed to marry?
Thank you, I thought it was just me being a dunce for not remembering that.
I distinctly remember Catelyn mentioning it in one of her chapters, and I'm currently in the process of scouring them to find it. Because I know I read it.
In any case I did rediscover the quote that Brandon was killed a few days before he was to wed Catelyn.