markg171, voice, in any of the novels, are there any logical clues that give us the age difference between Brandon, Ned, BenJen, and/or Lyanna? I'm guessing if it was there, one of you would have noticed. Or do we have a rough estimation? With say a variance of 3 yrs? Just curious, because she's younger than Ned, but older than Benjen, right?
I wish I could say. I'm doing this because I've always been bad at the timeline stuff. I'm hoping that by working on it, it will begin to stick in my head.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
We do know that Lyanna had been dead when Ned and Robert reconciled...might that offer any circumstantial data?
Not really IMO. Because again you get to the same problem being that Ned never said when this reconciliation took place. Oh I'm fairly certain that the reconciliation, which must at least be after the Sack because Ned says it in the same paragraph where he just described leaving King's Landing after it, probably eliminates the idea that Lyanna had been dead since like 282 and everybody knew that (though I do rather like that idea lol). But without knowing when Robert and Ned grieved together, that doesn't really tell us anything about when Lyanna died now did it?
It's once again a piece of information that says that the event occurred after another known event... but not that that event happened in the same year. All through the novels, through every interview, SSM, and what not, GRRM hasn't given us a single point of reference that actually pins down when everything happened. It's probably 283 or 284, but no one ever gives a time frame that can determine which year it actually was.
markg171, voice, in any of the novels, are there any logical clues that give us the age difference between Brandon, Ned, BenJen, and/or Lyanna?
We know that Ned was a year younger than Brandon, with Brandon being born in 262 and Ned in 263, as it says so in TWOIAF. And based off Bran's (seemingly) vision of Benjen and Lyanna, they seemed to be 2 years apart if he first thought it was a vision of himself and Arya who are two years apart. At the very least we know that Benjen was younger than Lyanna because he's called the "young" wolf in the KOTLT story. But again, we're never really given any indication of Benjen's own age either though in the books. No one in AGOT's or stuff says like he's 30 years old or anything so we don't know when he was born either.
It's really just that we know for sure when Brandon and Eddard were born, we know that Lyanna was older than Benjen, possibly by 2 years, and that Lyanna died at 16.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
maybe for Ben and Lyanna we should just do minimum and maximum years of birth/death?
Well the minimum year would have to be 264 for Lyanna given that Eddard's older than her and he's born in 263. And the minimum year for Benjen would then have to be 265 given that Lyanna's older than him. That stuff can't be disputed seeing as Eddard's older than both, and Lyanna's older than Benjen, and we know when Eddard's born so just go forward two years.
Course then if you say that Lyanna's born in 264, then she died in 280/281 given that she died when she was 16. Yet Rhaegar doesn't leave Dragonstone until the start of 282 and he kidnaps her after this. So she's still alive by 282. So then the minimum would have to be 265, and Benjen 266.
And then Robert says he married Cersei after Lyanna was gone, and he marries her in 285. So max she was alive till 285, giving her a birthday of max 269. And therefore Benjen 270.
So then I guess somewhere between 265-269 for Lyanna, and 266-whatever for Benjen (seeing as he could be whatever age, we have no idea how old he is)
I mean I don't necessarily disagree that she's probably born in 267. I just dispute that because we know she died when she was 16 that we know when she had to have been born, when we don't actually know this without knowing when she actually died. Which basically leaves us a fairly open window.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
We don't know if this kidnapping ever actually occurred.
But he can't kidnap a dead girl. So she has to be alive at the start of 282, whether any kidnapping or anything ever occurred to her.
Whether it ever happened is kinda a different question than whether it ever even could have happened, seeing as it can't have happened if she'd actually died years before. She's alive in 281 because she's at Harrenhal, and then she disappears in 282. So she does still have to be alive by 282.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
But he can't kidnap a dead girl. So she has to be alive at the start of 282, whether any kidnapping or anything ever occurred to her.
Whether it ever happened is kinda a different question than whether it ever even could have happened, seeing as it can't have happened if she'd actually died years before. She's alive in 281 because she's at Harrenhal, and then she disappears in 282. So she does still have to be alive by 282.
Quite true, but if she died shortly after HH, people would likely assume Rhaegar kidnapped her. We know she was home, at Winterfell when her father announced she would wed Robert, but we don't know if she lived beyond the tourney.
Might be her blood and gore were due to KotLT heroics. No telling.
Again, not disagreeing, only trying to flesh this out a bit. I wouldn't put it past GRRM to have a character literally kidnap a dead girl (Jon kidnapped Othor and Jafer after all), but there is certainly a lot of wiggle room when it comes to mere rumors of kidnapping.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I'm rewatching the first video now that I'm able to relax and soak it in. orderofthegreenhand, I'm at 4:29 and noticed that you mentioned that you have your own timeline worked out. Would you be interested in contributing it to our timeline thread here?
Right away regular jon umber, markg171, @prettypig, and Wraith, I think I see an error in this part, included below, thanks to orderofthegreenhand pointing out that the snow began to fall on the last day of 281.
281 Sarella Sand is born to Oberyn Martell and a Trader from the Summer Isles (from Wraith) Quentyn Martell is born to Doran Martell (from Wraith) Q1 - overlap: Elia recovered. Escorted through Kingswood/Hightower injured. Arianne meets Rhaenys (mentions holding the baby in her TWOW sample chapter - this could only have happened between 281 and early 282, before the war) Q2 - overlap: KWB defeated. (Led by Arthur Dayne, as Hightower still recovering from wound. Simon Toyne killed. Jaime knighted.) Tywin still Hand, Cersei in KL. Q3 - overlap: False Spring, Tourney at Harrenhal (late Q3). Tywin/Cersei return to the Rock. Lyanna crowned; Jaime made KG; Ashara Dayne "not long at court". NOTE: I believe Elia made a trip to Dorne/met up with her Dornish family after Rhaenys' birth - Ashara returned to court with her at that time. Q4: Winter returns with a vengeance. Snow covers KL, Blackwater freezes.
282 Q1: Fires burn in KL, Rhaegar not there to see them. Elia and Baby Aegon on Dragonstone. Q2: Brandon/Petyr duel after pending Cat marriage announced. Just shy of wedding day Brandon "heard the news about Lyanna" and leaves. Sam Tarly conceived. Overlap: Brandon/Rickard go to KL and are killed. Aerys calls for heads. Q3: Jon Arryn revolts. Ned betrothed to Cat. Lady Dustin married "not half a year" when Jon Arryn/Robert called banners - Lord Ryswell had wanted to marry Barbrey to Brandon (probably because they were already shagging), but married her to Dustin instead after that no longer possible due to announcement of Brandon's wedding to Cat (a Q1 wedding announcement to Q3 banner-call is about 6-8 months - just about right for Ryswell to find Barbrey a quickie husband). Overlap: Fighting already in Vale, Gulltown. Ned returns to Winterfell - Fisherman's Daughter. Battles of Ashford and Summerhall. Randall Tarly has a victory for the Crown. Q4: Margaery Tyrell conceived (has to be Q4 given her name day window - I'm assuming Mace returned to Highgarden briefly after Ashford to reform his vanguard to march south). Mace Tyrell's van marches to SE to begin siege. Rhaegar AWOL, JonConn named Hand. Ned gathers army, rides south.
This means that we should probably move the "return of winter" to the first quarter of 282.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I may be misremembering, but I thought it was Prettypig's timeline that place it earlier for "spring"?
As for me, if the only context is right before the new year/right after it, we're in the later half of the year. Which would then fit with Aegon's conception if Elia was in bed rest for 6 months after Rhaenys.
Plus no offence to RLJers, but it seems far more likely that Rhaegar DID dishonour Elia than that he didn't if he wasn't aware his wife was pregnant at Harrenhal as their general timeline proposes. Hence why everybody was so shocked. It was bad, but doubly so because Elia was obviously pregnant.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
markg171, I moved these posts to timelines because I don't want to throw orderofthegreenhand's thread way off topic.
But yes, I think that was @prettypig who placed the False Spring a bit earlier.
If the False Spring lasted two moon turns/months, and if it ended with snowfall on the last day of the year in 281 AC... then clearly, the False Spring is in Q4, Nov-Dec using a Gregorian calendar reference. And Winter Returns on Dec 31, 281 AC ~ Q1 282.
Post by kinglittlefinger on Feb 11, 2017 0:20:39 GMT
Here's my personal one, haven't compared it with any others in the thread, just something I put together while I was working on my Harrenhal Conspiracy series.
09/280 - Rhaenys born, Elia on bed rest for 6 months (latest possible 280 date, given Aegon's conception/birth) 10/280 11/280 12/280 01/281 - Kingswood Brotherhood defeated, Jaime knighted 02/281 - Kingsguard knight Harlan Grandison dies in his sleep 03/281 - Aegon conceived 04/281 - Tywin negotiating Jaime's marriage to Lysa, Cersei conspires to get him named to Kingsguard 05/281 - Jaime announced to Kingsguard, Tywin resigns as Hand and returns to Casterly Rock, Merryweather named Hand 06/281 - Oswell Whent travels to Harrenhal to convince his brother to host a grand tournament 07/281 08/281 09/281 - Tournament of Harrenhal, Jaime's Kingsguard induction, ??Allyria Dayne conceived?? 10/281 - Brandon returns to Riverrun, Robert/Ned to the Vale, Benjen to Winterfell, Lyanna whereabouts unknown 11/281 - Brandon duels Petyr, Brandon leaves Riverrun 12/281 - Aegon born, Elia declared unfit to hear another child, Petyr dismissed to the Vale 01/282 02/282 - Lyanna abduction, Brandon rides to Kings Landing and is imprisoned 03/282 - Aerys calls for Rickard Stark to come to Kings Landing 04/282 - Rickard arrives in Kings Landing and is executed with Brandon, Aerys sends word to Jon Arryn for Ned and Robert's heads 05/282 - Arryn raises banners in revolt, Battle at Gulltown, Robert/Ned leave for homes to raise banners 06/282 - Ned crosses the Bite, ??Allyria Dayne born at Starfall?? 07/282 - Robert arrives in Storms End and calls banners, 3 battles in one day at Summerhall 08/282 - Ned arrives at Winterfell and calls banners to head South 09/282 - Battle at Ashford, Tyrell's head to Storm's End, Robert injured and escapes to Stoney Sept to recover 10/282 - Siege of Storms End begins 11/282 - Connington named Hand, Dorne raises banners to join war on the Targaryens side 12/282 - Battle of the Bells 01/283 - Selmy and Darry sent to Riverlands to rally loyalist forces, Hightower sent to retrieve Rhaegar, Riverrun Weddings, Robb conceived 02/283 - Jon conceived 03/283 - Connington exiled, Chelsted named Hand 04/283 - Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing to rally forces 05/283 06/283 - Loyalist forces ride out to face rebels, Battle of the Trident, Chelsted burned, Aerys names Viserys his heir, Daenerys conceived, Rossart named Hand 07/283 - Rhaella escapes to Dragonstone, Sack of Kings Landing 08/283 09/283 - Storms End siege lifted by Ned, Stannis begins building fleet 10/283 - Robb born 11/283 - Jon born, Ned arrives at Tower of Joy 12/283 - Ned returns Dawn to Starfall 01/284 02/284 03/284 - Stannis sails for Dragonstone, Daenerys born, Rhaella dies in childbirth, Darry and Targaryen children escape to Braavos
Here's my personal one, haven't compared it with any others in the thread, just something I put together while I was working on my Harrenhal Conspiracy series.
09/280 - Rhaenys born, Elia on bed rest for 6 months (latest possible 280 date, given Aegon's conception/birth) 10/280 11/280 12/280 01/281 - Kingswood Brotherhood defeated, Jaime knighted 02/281 - Kingsguard knight Harlan Grandison dies in his sleep 03/281 - Aegon conceived 04/281 - Tywin negotiating Jaime's marriage to Lysa, Cersei conspires to get him named to Kingsguard 05/281 - Jaime announced to Kingsguard, Tywin resigns as Hand and returns to Casterly Rock, Merryweather named Hand 06/281 - Oswell Whent travels to Harrenhal to convince his brother to host a grand tournament 07/281 08/281 09/281 - Tournament of Harrenhal, Jaime's Kingsguard induction, ??Allyria Dayne conceived?? 10/281 - Brandon returns to Riverrun, Robert/Ned to the Vale, Benjen to Winterfell, Lyanna whereabouts unknown 11/281 - Brandon duels Petyr, Brandon leaves Riverrun 12/281 - Aegon born, Elia declared unfit to hear another child, Petyr dismissed to the Vale 01/282 02/282 - Lyanna abduction, Brandon rides to Kings Landing and is imprisoned 03/282 - Aerys calls for Rickard Stark to come to Kings Landing 04/282 - Rickard arrives in Kings Landing and is executed with Brandon, Aerys sends word to Jon Arryn for Ned and Robert's heads 05/282 - Arryn raises banners in revolt, Battle at Gulltown, Robert/Ned leave for homes to raise banners 06/282 - Ned crosses the Bite, ??Allyria Dayne born at Starfall?? 07/282 - Robert arrives in Storms End and calls banners, 3 battles in one day at Summerhall 08/282 - Ned arrives at Winterfell and calls banners to head South 09/282 - Battle at Ashford, Tyrell's head to Storm's End, Robert injured and escapes to Stoney Sept to recover 10/282 - Siege of Storms End begins 11/282 - Connington named Hand, Dorne raises banners to join war on the Targaryens side 12/282 - Battle of the Bells 01/283 - Selmy and Darry sent to Riverlands to rally loyalist forces, Hightower sent to retrieve Rhaegar, Riverrun Weddings, Robb conceived 02/283 - Jon conceived 03/283 - Connington exiled, Chelsted named Hand 04/283 - Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing to rally forces 05/283 06/283 - Loyalist forces ride out to face rebels, Battle of the Trident, Chelsted burned, Aerys names Viserys his heir, Daenerys conceived, Rossart named Hand 07/283 - Rhaella escapes to Dragonstone, Sack of Kings Landing 08/283 09/283 - Storms End siege lifted by Ned, Stannis begins building fleet 10/283 - Robb born 11/283 - Jon born, Ned arrives at Tower of Joy 12/283 - Ned returns Dawn to Starfall 01/284 02/284 03/284 - Stannis sails for Dragonstone, Daenerys born, Rhaella dies in childbirth, Darry and Targaryen children escape to Braavos
That's awesome man! Thanks for sharing!
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Might be useful for some of us. I daresay it will.
Very useful! I edited regular jon umber's OP and added it in the early days of this thread, I think. Can't remember. I think it's all there still though. Been adding/editing here and there as folks dig in and make corrections.
I invited u/PrivateMajor to join/edit/update but he's Reddit-only apparently. LOL Folks found quite a bit of his dates off the mark iirc.